quote:Originally posted by Verily the Younger: Whether that something is a Nice Guy or a Jerk, if I have to use deception to get a woman, then a woman is not worth having.
A certain degree of what could be called deception is rather necessary for most relationships, at least early on.
I guess it depends on what you consider deception.
quote: Being a Nice Guy (or, more accurately, a Nice Person) should be a goal in and of itself. When you start crabbing about how you didn't get what you expected for being a NG, then -- by definition -- you were never a NG.
I don't buy this, either.
Dang. I guess you won't be buying my book, either.
*grin
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Edited to add: When I use the term "Nice Guy/Person," I use it perhaps more rarely than some. I think if almost everyone is a NG/NP, then there isn't much meaning left to the term.
To the extent that the "niceness" is correlated with "anticipated deserved bounty," than I don't think that niceness is the primary good of the choice. To that extent, it's a tool.
That's not such a bad thing. We're tool-users, after all. But I'm not going to go ladling effusive praise for it, either.
posted
I agree with CT completely. To paraphrase what Icarus said once "You can't tell someone you are taking the high road, because the instant you tell someone you are taking the high road, you aren't taking it any more."
It's a matter of personal self-esteem. If you have to say aloud the words "but I'm a nice person" or actually *need* to hear other people tell you that you are a nice person, there's something wrong.
Most of the truly nice people out there, will get upset if you call them "nice" or "good" too often. And you'll never, ever hear them call themself "nice". Because, y'know, they are just living their lives. Who they are is who they are. They may be compassionate and kind others, but that just part of being who they are. It's not about being "nice" or "good".
This can go to the other extreme of low self esteem and not being able to tolerate a compliment because you think you don't deserve it. Either is bad.
But the good people in the middle ground aren't overly concerned about being "nice" one way or the other.
quote: The problem with taking the high road is that generally nobody will know you are taking the high road. You can't jump around and say, "Look at me! I'm taking the high road!" Because, of course, that would no longer be taking the high road. -- Icarus
quote:Most of the truly nice people out there, will get upset if you call them "nice" or "good" too often. And you'll never, ever hear them call themself "nice". Because, y'know, they are just living their lives. Who they are is who they are. They may be compassionate and kind others, but that just part of being who they are. It's not about being "nice" or "good".
This can go to the other extreme of low self esteem and not being able to tolerate a compliment because you think you don't deserve it. Either is bad.
But the good people in the middle ground aren't overly concerned about being "nice" one way or the other.
Word. You nailed it. (so to speak)
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posted
I don't believe it. People are nice because they've found that it works in their life and helps them be happy.
While being moral strictly for the sake of being moral sounds nice, it's a statement divorced from the fact that human beings are social creatures and that morality and being nice is something that really only means something when compared to other people. You know, Santa doesn't have just a nice list. How could he?
If what you're doing is consistently pissing people off, if you're constantly stepping on toes, then maybe your idea of being nice needs a little modificiation. If you can keep your head while everyone around you is losing theirs, then maybe it's time to re-examine the situation.
Of course, I guess someone *could* be Mr. Steppenwolf, the lonely moral genius forging his own path against the dreary mundanes of the world,a person who ignores the opinions of others around him, but that person is going to be living under a bridge, I suspect, because no one else would want to be around him.
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quote:To the extent that the "niceness" is correlated with "anticipated deserved bounty,"
Does it matter is the anticipated deserved bounty is not aniticipated, but developed on reflection at a later time?
In most of these examples, it's a nice guy commenting on something after the niceness in question. That is, the niceness wasn't done with the motive of anticipated future bounty. Rather, he is noticing the price of niceness afterwards.
It might mean he's not a nice guy now, but does it mean he wasn't a nice guy then?
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Also I personally know a *lot* of females who have ended up in the "friend zone". I've been there myself, numerous times. Again, if you actually concentrate on being friends with the person and worry less about what "zone" you are in, things generally work out in the end.
This same phenomena is why the majority of Eagle Scouts that find it necessary *tell* you they were an Eagle Scout within the first 10 minutes of conversation are also generally pricks.
AJ
I'm not bashing all Eagle Scouts, I know a lot of good ones. However they are generally the ones who don't beat you over the head with it.
I had a memorable run-in with an Eagle Scout Nice Guy who also fell into creepy follow you around puppydog stalker category. All three together are the *worst* combination. This encounter included memorable line from him to me "You should go out with me, because you are the only girl I've ever met who comes close to my intellectual caliber". This after I'd sat him down and told him explicitly that I wasn't interested in dating at that point in time.
posted
By an amusing coincidence, a guy who has been creeping me out for a week with incessant phone calls, emails, and pleas for my time "because I care about you" is pulling the, "I can't believe girls don't go for me; I'm just being nice" thing right now.
I ran into him on the library stairs (I basically told him flat-out last night to leave me alone because he was being creepy), and he said, "Don't say anything; just keep walking" and hurried off.
Now he's on AIM, freaking out over the fact that I "didn't even want to say hi."
quote:Creepy Stalker: can't believe u wouldn't even say hi. after all your lies, gah. oh well i tried! Creepy Stalker: again, i tried being nice. i failed?
posted
Ah. Stormie and Dagonee, I distinguish between a "Nice Guy" and just "being nice." Perhaps I am excessively Red-Queeny. Wouldn't be the first time.
But if I call someone a "Nice Guy," it's a mighty high tribute.
Dag, I would agree that the person in question still "had been nice," but I wouldn't call them a "Nice Guy" anymore. I reserve true Nice-Guyosity for those who are idealistic (or rather, realistic) enough to embrace the niceness for its own sake. To the extent that one views that niceness as a tool -- from any temporal perspective -- one cuts tremblingly close to tipping off the cliff of my high esteem. Alas.
And I now wave my wand and declare myself correct in all things.
posted
Dagonee, I think inherent to being "nice" is the fact that you don't tally up "costs" or "prices". I don't think being 'nice' is a one time deal.
It's kind of like forgiveness, but instead of something bad that gets thrown at you again and again if you weren't properly pentitent and haven't been forgiven, it's getting something nice that gets thrown again and again because you weren't properly greatful, and haven't shown enough gratitude.
Either way there are strings. If someone was being truly "nice" at the time there wouldn't be anything there to go back and reflect on. Even if the outcome wasn't the expected outcome, if you know you've done the, nice thing, the right thing, the thing that is you living to the highest ideals in your character, then, barring extremely extreme circumstances, you will be internally at peace with the outcome. Even if it isn't the outcome you wanted.
posted
I don't think what makes a guy nice has too much to do with what he thinks of himself or what he thinks he is entitled to because he's nice. I'd be more concerned with how he treats me and others in relationships. If he says he's a nice guy he damn well better be one, that's all.
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: If you think you're one of the "Nice Guys", watch some freakin' John Wayne movies, man up, and start asking the lady you're pining over out. Or just man up. But it's beyond absurd to blame women you've never asked out for not seeing you as something you've never been.
That's the way to go.
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posted
Well, being something of a pragmatist, I don't know that the motivation of an act matters so much as the act itself. Whether someone rescues a bunch of baby ducks because she expects monetary reward, or she does it because she's doing it for the love of Bob, she still has performed a good deed.
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posted
Dude, Icky, you gotta get a trademark for that quote. It's gettin' mileage from here clear down to sakeriver!
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:Originally posted by BannaOj: "Being Nice" is not an entitlement to Anything.
Nope, it's not. But what the nice guys were originally crabbing about in this thread, is that they are nice and should get more girls. Or something. Nothing wrong with that. They should, in my opinion.
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quote:Originally posted by Storm Saxon: Well, being something of a pragmatist, I don't know that the motivation of an act matters so much as the act itself. Whether someone rescues a bunch of baby ducks because she expects monetary reward, or she does it because she's doing it for the love of Bob, she still has performed a good deed.
I agree. Long live the baby ducks! (and the nice guys.)
Posts: 308 | Registered: Sep 2005
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I take it as a given that being a Good Person (i.e., Nice Guy/Person) means that -- more often than not -- you are going to get screwed over in most negotiations, end up doing more work than is your share, face more opportunities for disillusionment and despair than you can shake a stick at, and have your own heart torn asunder with fear and gratitude each time you find another GP.
It's gonna suck. The real Niceness ain't for wussies, and nobody with a vested interest in improving his or her own lot would ever give that path a second glance.
You'll be thinking a lot about Frodo, and you'll be thinking even more about Sam. (And not the Birthday Party part, either.) But I also think it's the only path work the pain of walking.
I love this, attributed to Mother Teresa, even though I no longer profess religious faith:
quote:People are often unreasonable, irrational, and self-centered. Forgive them anyway.
If you are kind, people may accuse you of selfish, ulterior motives. Be kind anyway.
If you are successful, you will win some unfaithful friends and some genuine enemies. Succeed anyway.
If you are honest and sincere people may deceive you. Be honest and sincere anyway.
What you spend years creating, others could destroy overnight. Create anyway.
If you find serenity and happiness, some may be jealous. Be happy anyway.
The good you do today, will often be forgotten. Do good anyway.
Give the best you have, and it will never be enough. Give your best anyway.
In the final analysis, it is between you and God. It was never between you and them anyway.
NB: This link attributes an earlier version to Kent Keith, from a booklet for student leaders.
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Edited to add: I don't think there are many Nice Guys in the world, not really. There are a whole lot of people who are trying, though, and that's great. All of them deserve to be treated with respect, dignity, care, and lovingkindness. But not even the Nice Guys deserve to get extra treats.
That's not what it's all about, IMNSHO.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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posted
I still think you're assuming that noticing that nice guys don't get girls is the same as thinking that one deserves girls because one is nice.
And noticing that jerks get girls who frequently complain about the jerkiness before moving on to the next jerk. (note this is not a statement about most girls or many girls, just a statement that such girls exist).
Even the quote in the previous post notices that niceness is often not rewarded.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
It all depends on how you define "good" really. The outcome may be good, however the motivation is what tells you about the person's character. And if the person's character isn't truly "nice" or "good" it will show in the end.
I'm all about getting people to do things out of their own self-interest if the thing needs to get done, and it will be better for everyone.
However the pragmatic "good" people (like perhaps Tom Davidson) will do something totally unselfish, and then try to explain it away as enlightened self-interest to turn it into a selfish act for justification. But the whole concept of "Pay it Forward" doesn't include any sort of guarantee that anyone else will ever pay it forward to you.
quote: Nope, it's not. But what the nice guys were originally crabbing about in this thread, is that they are nice and should get more girls. Or something. Nothing wrong with that. They should, in my opinion.
I think, actually, that the basic truth behind this thread is that everyone wants someone to recognize them as a good person. Everyone wants to be loved. Inasmuch as someone sees no fault in themselves, ie they believe they are a nice person, they believe they should find love. So, it is confusing why they haven't. I think the complaints aren't so much, 'I'm a nice guy, why aren't the girls flocking to me', as they are, 'I'm lonely'. ('Is there something wrong with me?')
Almost every single person on this forum has posted something to this effect at one time or another. pH just made a thread that basically expressed her frustration of not being able to find that certain someone to be her friend, or her lover, or whatever, despite the fact that she was a good person. Now, I don't think she ever said this expressly, but I believe that inherent in the idea that you should be loved is that you are worthy of love, that you are a nice person.
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Yup. There's a difference between analytic commentary and, er, crabbin', though. The implicit or explicit "but [I deserved X for it]" is what raises a red flag for me.
posted
I am still not going to deny men niceness because they wish they had girlfriends, thus improving their lives, thus gaining something for themselves. Plus, I wouldn't date a Mother Theresa sort, I'd feel too bad about myself. Perhaps I see niceness relative to myself. You are all so amazingly nice!
Posts: 308 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:I think, actually, that the basic truth behind this thread is that everyone wants someone to recognize them as a good person. Everyone wants to be loved. Inasmuch as someone sees no fault in themselves, ie they believe they are a nice person, they believe they should find love. So, it is confusing why they haven't. I think the complaints aren't so much, 'I'm a nice guy, why aren't the girls flocking to me', as they are, 'I'm lonely'. ('Is there something wrong with me?')
I totally agree. I think the "because" part -- that is, the distinguishing between what we all deserve and what one person may claim to deserve, extra, "because" of the niceness -- is problematic. For me, at least.
quote: the idea that you should be loved is that you are worthy of love, that you are a nice person.
I'd argue that we all deserve that minimum, and that nobody can "deserve" the extras.
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quote:Originally posted by jennabean: I am still not going to deny men niceness because they wish they had girlfriends, thus improving their lives, thus gaining something for themselves. Plus, I wouldn't date a Mother Theresa sort, I'd feel too bad about myself. Perhaps I see niceness relative to myself. You are all so amazingly nice!
You are amazingly kind and forgiving of the grumpy and hamfisted.
posted
Megan: Wonderful. It is an excellent piece, isn't it?
(I now return to passing judgment on all and sundry in my own RL world -- in between writing papers and exams, that is. *shakes fist )
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posted
Oh, I'm not saying someone should necessarily get something 'extra' for being a good person, though if that's what motivates someone to be a good person, hey, that's fine by me.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Storm Saxon: I think, actually, that the basic truth behind this thread is that everyone wants someone to recognize them as a good person. Everyone wants to be loved. Inasmuch as someone sees no fault in themselves, ie they believe they are a nice person, they believe they should find love. So, it is confusing why they haven't. I think the complaints aren't so much, 'I'm a nice guy, why aren't the girls flocking to me', as they are, 'I'm lonely'. ('Is there something wrong with me?')
Almost every single person on this forum has posted something to this effect at one time or another. pH just made a thread that basically expressed her frustration of not being able to find that certain someone to be her friend, or her lover, or whatever, despite the fact that she was a good person. Now, I don't think she ever said this expressly, but I believe that inherent in the idea that you should be loved is that you are worthy of love, that you are a nice person.
I hope you didn't think I actually read what all those lonely, crabby boys had to say. 'Cause I didn't. Posts: 308 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
It's pretty simple, really. Being devoted largely to yourself and not caring about what other people think comes off as confidence. Confidence is attractive; psychologically, we think that if someone has confidence, they must posess qualities that warrant that confidence. People who are largely devoted to themselves and don't care what other people think, however, are awful to get into relationships with.
Virtually every woman in my life has gone through a certain number of bad relationships before they finally got to the other end of the tunnel. Eventually, we get the real self-confidence and perceptiveness to be able to seperate perceived qualities from genuine ones.
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posted
See, in my own case, several of my friends could *not* understand why I was dating Steve because he seemed like "such a jerk". He's not a jerk. He's a smartass. And his brand of smartass highly amuses me. So it works. I can totally understand people *not* liking his brand of humor, but that doesn't actually make him a jerk. And, for all he may talk a load of B.S. as a bluff, if you actually look at his actions, they put him pretty squarely in the Good Guy category. But he doesn't go around advertising it. You probably wouldn't even necessarily know on a casual meeting. But you don't know what he does with his spare time either. (*grin*, quite a bit before we started dating, I was helping him out with some of the volunteer labor he was doing in his "spare time" so I knew... but not a lot of other people did.)
posted
Just curious, why is it always the guys that need to do the work? If a girl likes a guy, why can't she ask him instead of just waiting around for it to dawn on him?
Posts: 1215 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Even in the traditional guy-ask-out-girl model, there is a great deal of work on the girl's side.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote:Just curious, why is it always the guys that need to do the work? If a girl likes a guy, why can't she ask him instead of just waiting around for it to dawn on him?
Fast forward to the 21st century, where girls can and do ask guys all sorts of things.
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Girls want something, but they cant figure it out. IE: Girls are dumb in this respect. When they do figure out what they want, they still can't tell who has it and who doesn't have it.
It comes to this: Don't treat women like they are so high up. (For guys, They are dumb; for girls You don't want us to worship you, and you know it, You want someone who cares and someone you feel something for.)
Women don't want a little boy, they want a man. Be aggressive. Jerks happen to be aggressive.
Here's the thing, Jerks are little boys. Women can't tell the difference; Unless they are smart, which is a different breed of woman. I honestly don't really know what I want in a woman, so I'm going to get to know as many as I can.
Posts: 189 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Don't treat women like they are so high up. (For guys, They are dumb;
o_O
Am I reading this correctly? Are you saying women are dumb, or guys are dumb? Either way, I think it'd be wise to rethink what you said.
Posts: 4077 | Registered: Jun 2003
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quote:It's sort of the way I feel about religion. I don't think one should follow a faith in order to avoid eternal punishment or gain eternal reward.
This is one of the reasons I stopped going to church -- I realized I didn't really (in that logical part of my mind) believe in most of what was being said. It just didn't make sense. But I kept going, not only because everyone else was, but because I figured to err on the side of caution.
But that's not really what it's about. So I left church, and pursue a Christ-like life, but under my own guidance. I fail (a lot), but I never give up.
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The other thing that I don't think anyone's said yet is that it's not only 'nice guys' who think they deserve a significant other; it's everybody.
Everybody thinks they deserve a bf/gf, and if they don't have one they look for a reason why. If you're single, there's no one thing you can look to to fix that. There's no guarantee it even needs to be fixed. Being in a relationship won't make you a better person, anymore than winning the lottery will cure all your problems. They'll all still be there. You're still you, whether you're rich or poor, single or attached.
Everyone feels a sense of entitlement in regards to certain things. I don't agree with the statement that Nice Guys who complain about being single aren't Nice Guys.
I don't think any one thing defines you. You can be a Nice Guy, and still be irritated that the girls you like only seem to go for jerks. I know I've liked several girls who went for jerks, and they weren't vapid, shallow, cheerleader types. The type of person you're attracted to is a direct reflection of your own sense of self-worth.
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posted
I got asked out all the time when I was in high school. Nowadays, I get picked up every once in awhile, but I generally do the picking up.
I've done this topic enough, so I'm going to leave all "It's because you are socially awkward and lacking confidence and also when you put a lot of value on things other than personality, you cvan hardly complain when those girls who have these things you value don't regard personality as very important either." stuff aside and say, it's not just confidence being attractive, but also being willing to break the ice. It's like, when you're out somwhere, and you catch someone's eye, it doesn't matter whether you are a nice guy or not. What matters is whether you look away or not. Most "nice" guys look away. You don't pick up girls that way.
Honestly, I don't have a lot of respect for nice. Nice is, to me, kind of weak. It's like in the eye contact example, nice is often a way of saying not liking to break social surface tension. It's nice to pay everyone compliments. Sparing someone's feeling is nice.
I much prefer kindness, which, to me, is what niceness becomes when it grows up. It's not nice to, for example, make people face unpleasant truths, but it's often the kindest thing you can do. In many cases (I'm look at you when I say this, Hatrack), being nice can be pretty unkind.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
Girls and guys are both completely stupid (on average) in completely different ways.
Girls are stupid in that they think guys are observant and attentive enough to recognize their signals, in regards to interest, or wanting to change something, or wanting sex, or not wanting sex, or what have you.
Guys are stupid in that they are, as said above, completely unobservant and inattentive. You generally have to bash us over the head with something for us to recognize it's there.
There's also the classic disparity of girls only wanting to discuss (or "bring to light") issues, whereas guys want to know about problems and fix them.
There are, of course, exceptions.
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posted
Most girls don't care if they ask a guy out or get a guy's number or whatever. But if we have to do ALL the work, it makes us feel like we're being clingy or desperate.
Personally, I don't LIKE the guy to do all the work. But I'm also very, very terrified of possessiveness. Like, it's a real problem because I get freaked out by things that really aren't a big deal and shouldn't indicate that he's going to become scary emotionally abusive or something.
quote:Personally, I don't LIKE the guy to do all the work. But I'm also very, very terrified of possessiveness. Like, it's a real problem because I get freaked out by things that really aren't a big deal and shouldn't indicate a problem.
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But I'm not going to go ladling effusive praise for it, either.
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