posted
Okay, Kat, that's what I thought you meant.
*falls out of chair* *dies*
Just so you know, I have always known this.
To make things more clear, I am an adult and operate on this adult system (and always have).
HE is still in high school, however, and most of the girls we are talking about are, as well.
Not that you're implying that I am a CHILD or anything... ...I've just never had someone explain to me how "adults" work, since I have been an adult in a child's body for my entire life.
Sorry, it's just that you told me something that no one who's ever met me would have even attempted.
I know, I asked you to explain yourself. I just wanted to make sure you were saying what I THOUGHT you were saying.
Besides, you can't tell me that adults value "know-it-alls" anymore than kids do.
posted
<vigorous edits to avoid offending, because it just occurred to me that it might>
I do. Very much. I really don't think that's just Hatrack.
I wasn't implying that you weren't an adult. I'm sorry if it came off like that. You asked the question, but mostly I was delighted to expound on a theory that I like.
Maybe that older-on-the-inside thing applies to his friends as well?
posted
Eh, I doubt it. But I may be judging unfairly.
And yes, I like Tom. But he's broken it with me, too.
And BTW, I don't mean "know-it-all" in the sense that they are smart and confident. I mean "know-it-all" in the sense that they look down on you and think you're pathetic.
On the judging unfairly... My step-mother has five nieces. One of them was the head cheerleader at my high school when I was there(her aunt wasn't my stepmother then). All five size six, natural blondes, perfect Utah Mormons who married A.P. jocks that became wealthy businessman. Two live in Manhattan. They all have college degrees and the perfect children. And they are so nice. It's as annoying as hell. It's nice to think no one that has all of that could be anything but shallow, but it's not always true. It's possible his friends ARE mature enough to ignore the geek signifiers.
posted
Well, he comes off that way. But after being forced to hang out with him for several hours one evening, I realized that he didn't really feel that way, but has a hard time because he always seems to give that impression. Does that make sense?
Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
I think there is some truth to the idea that women like gay men. And as some of the guys here expressed, while they are not interested "that way" in women, they love flirting with them because they are safe.
I think a lot of girls look at gay guys the same way. You can have such a fun time flirting and there is no chance of getting "burned" in any way. You see, if your friend were straight, there's a chance he might get "ideas" from their flirting. From what you described, it sounds like they wouldn't want to encourage such a thing. But since they can "play around" without harm, why not enjoy it? Even with a "geeky goober". Risk-free flirting. What's not to like?
The only danger is if the girl genuinely falls for the guy. That just makes me sad. Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Speaking of gals falling for gay men... I really really hate falling for straight men... so disapointing.
Posts: 4953 | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
I don't think I asked this before but my memory may be off. It was touched on in some recent threads but never really explained to my satisfaction. I went back and read my posts in this thread to see if I already asked it and I don't think I did, but if was answered already please point me that way.
Why are there some gay men who aren't attracted to women, but then go out and date men who dress like women and look almost entirely female?
Like, what would be the point of dating Rupaul? Why not just a girl?
Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
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Am I getting this right, male homosexuality centers around interest in male genetilia more than about not liking women?
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
I'm going to have to agree with Fugu here, sexuality is normally defined by attraction, not lack there off, bi-sexuals being another good counter-point example.
posted
I was trying to respond to the comment about gay men who date effeminate men and dating women with penises, but I think I was commenting on something that wasn't said.
So afresh: I'm pretty much straight, and much of that is due to an appreciation for the penis. So I like men with penises. But I have found myself liking girls with girlness, too. But I don't want a girl with girlness and a penis. That's just weird. (YMMV)
Edit: I don't want a manly girl with a penis, either. Just so you know.
I used to watch this show called "An Adoption Story" or some such, mainly because I intend to adopt. One of the gay male couples were talking about how they love their child, and how they have had to make new friends because their old friends kept teasing them about being straight now that they had adopted. Does anyone know why these "friends" would say such things? I honestly don't get it because I don't think adopting says anything about homosexuality or heterosexuality.
Posts: 188 | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:I guess I am just wondering if a woman's attraction to a man and a homosexual man's attraction to a man are the same thing. It has been my experience that for the most part women don't really care all that much about a man's penis until it comes to the actual use of it.
Bev, I think I can't figure out what a gay man would find penis-oriented-but-not-the-action attractive that a straight woman wouldn't. The thought of a penis, with little care as to the body attached? Easily find either a gay man or a straight woman for that.
Posts: 1892 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
Well, as a heterosexual woman with very small breasts, I guarantee that some men are butt and leg men, or I'd never have gotten a date.
That said, I suppose women would be more interested in penises if they were more obvious. I shall never forget my first water polo match. O_O I can also say that some women past a certain age or with a certain level of experience, DO talk about penises. Ceck out some Ewan McGregor fansites, if you don't believe me.
But penis size or whatever can't have a lot to do with who we chose to date, just because once we see the thing, chances are we're fairly committed. I've only ever had intimate knowledge of the ONE (though I have come to understand that my beloved is a man of unusual proportions) and it hardly had any bearing on my choice. By the time I met Ron JR I had already made my choice.
Also, I did once get flashed on a walk through my neighborhood, and immediately became incapacitated with laughter, not disgust. I was still a teen, and didn't really see any implicit threat in the gesture. It was just shocking. Yuo're right, though, in that it didn't DO anything for me.
Posts: 1664 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:Most women don't particularly like to look at them or think about them. They only care when they are in the thoes of passion.
I think this is the part that I question and disagree with. Unless you can find a study that says this outright, I'm just going to say that I think it's an unfounded stereotype.
Posts: 1261 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
Would it convince you otherwise if I could get half a dozen female hatrackers to raise their hands on being visually stimulated and particularly interested in penises? Seems treading the line on family-oriented forum, but if you'd be willing to accept that as enough other-side anecdotal data, then it might be worth it.
posted
You know, dabbler has a very good point. Just because I am curious about this doesn't make it an appropriate conversation for a family-oriented forum. While I do wish to discuss it at some point with a group, this is *not* the proper place to do it.
I deleted three of my posts, which may make some other posts here look out-of-place. Feel free to delete them also. We can just pretend this conversation never happened. Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
I dunno. I feel that abstract, non-descriptive discussion would be okay but I'm not a mod/owner.
How about this. Would you be perfectly happy to marry a man with no genitalia? Or lets just take Porter and subtract that part of him. Would you be just as happy/contented?
I think that similar numbers of men and women would prefer their mates with genitalia intact, indicating an interest in those genitalia apart from other gender-specific characteristics.
Posts: 1261 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
Heh. I told somebody the other day that I did track and feild events in highschool, like the dashes and highjump. I said I didn't like team sports, because i hated having to deal with/depend on other people.
quote: How about this. Would you be perfectly happy to marry a man with no genitalia? Or lets just take Porter and subtract that part of him. Would you be just as happy/contented?
No, but part of that would be knowing that a eunuch or even an impotent man can't enjoy that sort of intimacy much. But I will say this, I can enjoy such an intimate encounter without that being involved. It is not crucial to my enjoyment.
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posted
And I think (know) heterosexual guys can enjoy an intimate encounter without breasts being involved.
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Fair 'nough. I still think that there is a pretty significant difference in the way men and women's sex drives work. And I honestly am curious particularly about the homosexual male and if his sex drive tends to work more like a man's or like a woman's or perhaps a combination of the two. I find it an interesting question.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
I think a gay man's sex drive works pretty similarly to any other man's, though the object of desire is, by definition, different. But I think men's sex drives are much more varied among individuals than typical stereotypes allow. My ex was insatiable. My current boyfriend very much less so (though I enjoy intimacy with him much more.)
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
PSI Teleport asked about men who date nelly (girly) men. Personally, I find that a little mysterious myself. I can see the hottest looking guy in the world and if he starts mincing or swishing or talking effiminately the attraction bottoms out pretty quickly. But I imagine for people who are attracted to this, it's the same as for straight men who like boyish or even mannish women.
This isn't to be confused with "camp" though. Many gay men (myself included to some degree) will affect somewhat effeminate (or effeminate charicatured) speech patterns and/or mannerisms when we're in gay company. I might say "You go, girl!" to a gay male friend. A friend of mine will adopt a very queen-ish attitude and then say something cutting-but-witty that will have us all laughing. It's a part of the culture for some. It's an embarrassment for others.
On a related note, there is the concept of "gender-f***", which is basically thumbing one's nose at established gender stereotypes. For some this is an expression of freedom. For some it is more a kind of in-your-face activism.
There is also the tradition of drag, which is not to be confused with transvestitism or transexuality. Drag is more dress-up or impersonation. For most drag queens, it is theater, and the illusion of uber-femininity is the point in itself. And To Wong Foo aside, very few drag queens wear drag except when they are "on" (at the bars or for performances). But I'm getting off the point I think, so I'll stop here.
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote: I used to watch this show called "An Adoption Story" or some such, mainly because I intend to adopt. One of the gay male couples were talking about how they love their child, and how they have had to make new friends because their old friends kept teasing them about being straight now that they had adopted. Does anyone know why these "friends" would say such things? I honestly don't get it because I don't think adopting says anything about homosexuality or heterosexuality.
Some gays actively reject the "straight world". I think they are a minority. These gays also usually could care less about gay marriage, or adoption rights. Just like there are some black people who scream "Uncle Tom" at any black person who doesn't talk in ebonics or (heaven forbid) might marry a white person, there are gays who think gay-marriage and adoption and such are signs of trying to "be straight" and by implication rejecting gay culture.
I think it just shows that there are narrow-minded people in all cultures.
It's sad to think that a case like you mention might be taken as representative of the norm. In my experience, most gays are very happy for those in the gay community who might choose to adopt or get married.
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
Okay -- I'm going to ressurect this thread to ask a probably-stupid question to Telp or KarlEd.
In a gay-male relationship, isn't one of the partners usually more "feminine" and the other a little more "masculine"? To various degrees?
I mean - once, years ago, I picked up two hitchhikers (both male) who, after about 15 minutes of riding in the car with me, it became obvious were very gay and very much in love with each other. One of them I would have figured was gay if I had met him even totally in a different context or alone -- the other one, I would never have been able to tell. In fact, he said years ago he had a "straight" relationship with a wife & kids and left it because he was gay, and now had this partner. But he was definately more masculine of the two in mannerisms, etc.
Now I'm asking this because I have a friend who is a gay male, and he is just going through a break-up with his partner of several years. I'm not sure how to address this/comfort him. I mean, there are certain things I feel I can relate to a girl when she is breaking up with a guy, or a guy when he's breaking up with a girl, but I don't know which of these two viewpoints of breakup this guy is feeling. But I want to show caring and compassion because I realize they had a loving relationship.
or maybe I should just keep my mouth shut altogether?
posted
I remember in the Philippines someone talking about lesbian relationships and how one is often "the male" and the other "the female".
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
I think of any two people, no matter what their genders, one will find one is more masculine in at least some ways and the other more feminine. Also, particularly as society tends to expect masculine/feminine pairings, those differences will likely become more evident due to role fulfillment.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
Farmgirl - I think the feminine/masculine dichotomy in gay relationships is largely a myth. I think that straight society identifies some degree of femininity in all gay men, and some degree of masculinity in all lesbians. Additionally, I think if you looked hard enough at any male (gay or straight) you could identify some aspect of his personality that might fit the stereotype of "feminine". Ditto (in reverse) for women.
I'll admit that some gay relationships one partner might more clearly fall toward the masculine end of the spectrum and one toward the feminine end, but I think most gay couples are less easily pinned down to a spot on the spectrum.
In my own relationship, I tend to be the protector (M), the primary bread winner (M), the cook (F), the home-maker (F), etc, though Chris also shares in each of these roles. He does more of the housekeeping (F) but I also participate int his. Sexually, I'm probably more the initiator (M), but in terms of the mechanics of sex we both enjoy roles that straight people would likely identify with one end of the spectrum or the other. (Trying not to be too graphic here )
I think, though, that if you looked at any straight couple with the intent of picking out ways one gender is filling the role traditionally filled by the other gender, you'd be able to find a lot of "feminine" men and "masculine" women paired together.
So I think that since straight relationships have had more clearly defined masculine/feminine roles traditionally, people (gay and straight) often try to project those roles into a gay relationship and determine who fits which stereotype best. In reality, though, I think the masculine/feminine aspects of the roles get shuffled pretty thoroughly in gay relationships (some more than others) and such a dichotomy is harder to substantiate.
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
Thank you for that clarification, KarlEd. That was very enlightening, and I will do my best to NOT perpetuate that myth myself in the future, then. I can see the logic of both what you say, and what Fugu said, about EVERY relationship having some masculine/feminine traits. In fact, I have been accused of being too masculine many times because of my extremely independent streak. It has intimidated some men in my relationships.
Back to my original question then (the reason I asked that above). What is the best way to (verbally) show compassion and understanding to a gay person who has just ended a long-term relationship? Just the same as we do anyone else, right?
posted
Yes. People are people and should be related to as individuals, especially when it comes to personal issues like a breakup. Just as you probably wouldn't say the same thing to all the straight women you may know who are going through a breakup, but tailor your response based on your knowledge of the situation and your degree of closeness to the people involved, you should do the same for your gay male friends.
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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