posted
Hon, you wouldn't have made this thread in the first place if you were hunky dory with the current arrangements between you and Matt.
We are all telling you not to chain yourself to him to keep you from temptation. We all seem to think that is a lousy reason to stay in a relationship.
But if you think it is good enough reason, just accept that things between you and Matt aren't going to change, and that you willingly put up with it in order to keep from temptation.
You can't make him change.
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quote:I won't marry anyone until I've dated them for at least 2 years, and I'll only date someone I've known for a LONG time. I really don't want to wait til I'm 40 to get married. really.
Why does it matter when you get married? What's wrong with getting married late? I don't think you should be in such a rush to get married, or set so many hard-and-fast preconditions on it.
Worry about marriage when it becomes an issue -- that is, when you're in a long-term relationship and you start thinking that you might not mind proposing or being proposed to. That's when you should start talking about it with whoever the boy you're with is. By your own admission this is already your second relationship with Matt, which means you've broken up once before. I think it's seriously premature to start thinking about marrying him.
I also don't think you need him to keep from breaking your self-imposed rules. He can help with that but mostly it's something you have to do yourself.
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quote:Originally posted by ludosti: You've made a decision about what you do and don't. That is awesome! Don't doubt yourself by claiming you need to be someone's girlfriend to maintain your strength of will. As for your past experience, we all make mistakes. You have learned that is not what you want to do. Great! Don't dwell on your guilt. Dwell on your conviction that that is not what you want for yourself. Then go out and find friends. Have fun with your friends. And yes, there is fun aside from sex and making out.
Tinros, read what Ludosti said here. Read it again. Consider printing it and reading it every morning when you wake up.
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Tinros, I entirely empathize with what you say about finding it difficult to resist temptation. It's a valuable thing to know about yourself.
It's not, however, fair to make Matt carry the bulk of the burden. By that, I mean that with true partners, there are certainly things that you are better at than he is and vice versa, but on convictions of belief, you must carry your own weight. It's a burden that IMO will squash the life out of your friendship. And really, the friendship is the most important part at this point.
I do think that when we know we have weaknesses about ourselves, we should have a friend who keeps us accountable. Someone who loves us and will be willing to tell us the truth when we least want to, but most need to hear it. With women, I think it's vital that this friend be another woman. That's hard when you're 17, since girls relationships are still maturing, but perhaps you could find a young woman who would help you firm up your own convictions and help you deal with temptation. I have such a friend -- she knows the worst of what I've done, what temptations I struggle with, and always tells me the truth. I wouldn't trade her for the world.
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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What would be the harm of being friends for a while and then later reevaluating your relationship? If you both aren't sure you want to be dating now, then you should wait until you both really want that. I am getting married in May. Paul and I broke up once early on in our relationship because i wasn't sure that I wanted to be in a romantic relationship with him at that point. If I had stayed dating him, I could never have fell in love completely because I never would have really committed my heart. Waiting until I knew I wanted to be dating him allowed me to give the relationship a real chance to succeed.
What I am trying to say is being friends for a while in no way precludes getting together some time in the future and may actually increase the chance that you can find a lasting love with the person.
Posts: 416 | Registered: May 2005
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Matt and I decided to be friends the first time we broke up... and ended up not speaking for 9 months. I don't want that happeneing again, especially not since we'll both be leaving high school. jeniwren- you're right. I shouldn't make it matt's responsibility to keep me pure. I'm going to think about this for a while, and if you want, I'll let you all know how it turns out.
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Tinros, I'd really like that. I admire both you and Matt for having high ideals, and have hopes my children will make similar choices. I'd like very much to know how you're doing.
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Why when you stopped dating did you decide to no longer speak? It seems like at least one of you is not really into trying to make a relationship work as friends if you can't even manage to speak to each other without dating especially if the break up isn't of the bad variety but rather just a choice to give each other time to decide what you want.
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quote: It disgusts me when I see my friends make out, and I DON'T WANT THAT in my soul. My body will always want that sort of thing, but I WILL NOT GO THERE
This is particularly why you need to do "the physical thing."
And I'm not even talking about sex, mind you. Heck, I'm not even talking about third base.
You appear to me to have some very conflicted, very anguished, and very broken attitudes towards any expression of physical affection and/or desire. This is remarkably unhealthy. In other words, your repulsion has become so intense that it's turned into a sort of morbid attraction -- unless it happened the other way around in the first place.
You're glad to be dating a man who's shown no physical attraction to you at all because you believe you're so weak that you would be unable to resist "icky stuff" with a man who did show some attraction. As several people have pointed out, this might very well be shackling you to a loveless marriage, perhaps even to someone who's a closeted homosexual; I speak here as someone who has seen that happen to one of his friends in exactly this way.
Go out. Date. Have fun. Kiss people -- or, at the very least, figure out why kissing someone would be the end of the world.
It's hard for me to think of your relationship as healthy because it seems to be built entirely on a principle of avoidance -- and I consider avoidance to be inherently unhealthy anyway. I knew a few girls growing up who were involved in Baptist churches so strict that they were required to wear skirts and were forbidden from any physical contact with boys, including handshakes, because the alternative might lead them into temptation. All but one of them was pregnant by 19.
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I don't think your using the words 'friends' or 'boyfriend and girlfriend', like I understand them.
quote: Matt and I decided to be friends the first time we broke up...
What were you breaking up from in the first place? You weren't doing more than holding hands, and just treating each other like friends in the first place. So wouldn't breaking up just mean giving up the title? And isn't that what you wanted to keep in the first place?
quote: ... and ended up not speaking for 9 months.
How can you be friends, and not speak to each other? Friendship is all about communicating, and trusting, and having fun. So if Matt just wanted to be friends with you in the first place, how come when you tried 'dropping the title' and becoming friends, you didn't talk to each other?
You should probably see a consular about these matters.
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Tom, I don't think you understand how strong my beliefs are about not going past a kiss. It's a religious promise I made to GOD HIMSELF. If I break that, I'll have a hard time forgiving myself, let alone asking God to forgive me. I'm not repulsed as in, I'll NEVER go there. Just not before marriage. What disgusts me is when I see my Christian friends, who supposedly have the same beliefs I do, stick their hands in places they don't belong. It's a part of "staying away from youthful lusts" that Jesus talked about.
Theresa- When Matt and I broke up the first time, we both got very, very angry that we hadn't been honest with each other. We were both so scared to talk to each other because we didn't know how to be friends again. In a way, we still don't. And this time, just now, I found out that he hadn't been honest with me, when he told me he was being honest. It hurts. But he's promised to be honest from now on, seeing the effect it had on me... I don't know what to do though.
Posts: 1591 | Registered: Jul 2005
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I admire your decision to wait for physical intimacy until marriage. I agree with the others who have said that it needs to be your decision and your responsibility to live up to that decision. No one else can do it for you. It is not easy, so continue to avoid temptation (but in a different way than carrying around a meaningless label).
It is my opinion, however, that if you have to proclaim your maturity, you're not really mature. That's okay. You don't have to be mature right now. This doesn't mean you're not more mature than your peers, you probably are in a lot of ways. But leave yourself some room to mature and grow even more. Your experiences over the next few years will really help with that, and your tendency for self-reflection will _really_ help. You'll find yourself changing and refining what you believe, and that's okay, too. Don't worry, that doesn't mean you'll suddenly think it's okay to have lots and lots of sex. But you'll probably come up with a lot more reasons to support your decisions and become ready to live up to them in and of yourself.
Just give it time. This will all work out. Now is not the time to fight for this boy. Now is the time to get ready for college and to make new friends, have new experiences, and figure out what your faith will mean to you as an adult.
And about only dating someone you have known for a long time; I think this is pretty naive. It leads to a "friends first" strategy, and that's ridiculous. Being friends under that "friends first" mindset isn't friendship at all. It's not even a relationship. It's just some absurd limbo that will cause you both a great deal of anguish.
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quote:Originally posted by Tinros: Tom, I don't think you understand how strong my beliefs are about not going past a kiss. It's a religious promise I made to GOD HIMSELF. If I break that, I'll have a hard time forgiving myself, let alone asking God to forgive me. I'm not repulsed as in, I'll NEVER go there. Just not before marriage. What disgusts me is when I see my Christian friends, who supposedly have the same beliefs I do, stick their hands in places they don't belong. It's a part of "staying away from youthful lusts" that Jesus talked about.
Ok, but do you feel this strongly about the other sins you probably commit on a regular basis? If only sexual matters make you feel this horrible, then Tom's diagnosis is still correct. It's not about your relationship with GOd, it's about your views on sex.
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I also think you need some counseling. Not because I think your quest for 'purity' is wrong--far from it! I am wondering about your motives, though. Is this a covenant between you and your Creator, or a reaction to some trauma?
Human beings need physical contact, particularly from their domestic life partners. I'm not even talking about sex (to echo TomD).
quote:What disgusts me is when I see my Christian friends, who supposedly have the same beliefs I do, stick their hands in places they don't belong.
Out of curiosity, are these the same friends who encourage you to do the same? If they are actively encouraging you to do so, then they do *not* have the same beliefs as you.
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Yes, I feel that way about every other sin in my life. I'm trying my hardest to stop all sin in my life- as is the goal of every true follower of Christ. I made these decisions about dating before I ever had a boyfriend, before I got into high school even. Everything in my life is based on what I think God wants me to do. As for couseling- I've seena psychologist before. It didn't help, and my family doesn't have the money to send me back.
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The only friends I have that do not encourage me to do those things are the friends I have at my church. None of them go to my school, I don't see most more than once a week.
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When you get to college, there ought to be free services availible. I know that doesn't help you know, but keep it it mind for the future.
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TomD, I disagree. I think her reaction is so strong because she's young and naturally passionate, not because she's conflicted. Most teenagers don't have a lot of subtlety.
I do agree about avoidance, though. I'm not too jazzed on "rules against having sex", but rather like to think of it as a conviction to save (like money) certain actions and thoughts for the future spouse. Just like if you spent your money on something frivolous when you meant to save it for the house you want to someday buy. It doesn't mean you can't still buy the house, but it does mean that you won't have as much toward that house than you intended. It might also mean that you don't get as nice a house as you'd hoped. It's not a perfect analogy, I know, but you get what I mean. No need to dwell over the mistakes, but you can't *undo* the mistakes either.
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When I get to college, I won't have time to see a counselor, not with the major and minor I'm choosing.
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Tinros, I am an Orthodox Jew, and in the really religious circles, dating really is just a prelude to marriage. Boys and girls are schooled separately, socialize separately, and dates are arranged for the object of matrimony. Unmarried men and women do not touch, even hands, much less kiss.
I'm telling you all this to let you know that I understand where you are coming from with your level of religious observance.
That said, the same feelings that struck Beverly also struck me in reading your post. I wonder about your boyfriend's sexuality. He may be closeted or in denial about his feelings towards men. Some questioning gays like having a "girlfriend" that is "just a friend" for the straight cred that it confers.
He may not be consciously using you for the straight cred; he might be trying to convince himself, too.
So, just be friends with this guy. Friendship is not an exclusive relationship. You are certainly free to count him among your friends while pursuing other friendships. If you are not looking for a romantic relationship at this point in your life, well, that's OK.
Posts: 10397 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote: I'm trying my hardest to stop all sin in my life
You will fail.
Utterly. Unequivocably.
You can not do this.
It is only through Jesus that you can have the victory over sin. He gives the strength and the ability. If you continue to try it on your own, you will fail. You must accept that your acceptance of Jesus saves you. As you study His word and grow in Him, he changes you. He tells you what parts of your life you need to work on with His help. We can't change ourselves. If we could, we wouldn't need a Savior. Read Romans for more on righteousness by faith, sanctification, and the law.
-Katarain
***Okay.... you can look now....***
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trust me, he's not gay. We've discussed that. I won't go into his reasons, or mine, I just need to ask you to trust me on this one.
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Tinros - I have two majors (Mathematics and Economics) and two minors (German and Philosophy), work around 15 hours a week, and I still have plenty of time to kick back and chill. You will too, most likely.
Edit - So don't let time constraints stop you from getting professional help, should you feel you need it.
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Katarain, I know that. That's what I meant- I mean that I'm taking the steps in my life that will lead me closer to God and farther from sin. I'm letting God change me- that's what I meant when I said trying to stop sin. I'm letting Him tell me what to change, and this was one of those things, the limits on sexuality before marriage.
Posts: 1591 | Registered: Jul 2005
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If you don't think you have time for counseling next year because of your major/minor choices, you might want to take a second look at your choices. I say this out of love and experience. You cannot be an effective student and neglect your health.
It's like a waitress saying she can't spend money on good shoes, even though she spends her worktime on her feet. Eventually, her feet and legs will fail her and her source of income will be compromised.
(Was that an over-extended metaphor? I apologize.)
Posts: 1545 | Registered: May 2002
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posted
regardless of time constraints, I really just don't want to see a counselor. The last one told me it was all in my head, and if I just denied the fact that I was suicidal for 7 years, the feelings of depression would go away. She was wrong, and I'm still suicidal at times.
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I've been part of a support group for chronic illnesses at my college - the hour a week I spent in that group more than paid for itself because I brooded less on my own time. Most counseling only takes an hour or two a week, and over time, it really does help.
Posts: 2409 | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:How can you be friends, and not speak to each other? Friendship is all about communicating, and trusting, and having fun. So if Matt just wanted to be friends with you in the first place, how come when you tried 'dropping the title' and becoming friends, you didn't talk to each other?
You should probably see a consular about these matters.
Talking to a counselor might be a bit extreme, but it does definitely help to talk out these matters, but maybe not necessarily here where you're going to get many different opinions that might just cause you to be even more confused.
It can be difficult to change the status of your relationship with someone and then expect everything to be the same as before. It's like asking out a close friend and they respond by saying "that's sweet, but I don't think of you in that way." The good response would be "No problem. We'll just go on as if nothing ever happened." The reality, however, is that it can be awkward and confusing to try to know how you should act around the person. Any change in a person's perception of their relationship can be that way, but the best way to overcome it is by making the effort to talk through it.
Regarding the friends first approach...I don't think it's absolutely necessary, but I think there are some benefits to that. First, it kind of releaves the pressure on both people when you start out the relationship with the assumption that you can be just normal friends without having to be overly worried about what the other person thinks about you. Secondly, your concept of a person can be very distorted when you're dating them, but if you've already been friends first, then you have a clearer view of what that person is like. Thirdly, I think it can be easier to resume a normal friendship with a person you've dated if you were friends first. Although, I think the very big risk is that dating a good friend can sometimes ruin a good friendship.
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Am I just a seriously messed up person? I've been able to find logical reasons to prove I'm insane before...j/k
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Sounds like you had a bad counselor - they're not all that way!! Most of them are very good, in fact. Don't let one bad apple convince you that the whole batch is rotten.
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quote:I won't marry anyone until I've dated them for at least 2 years, and I'll only date someone I've known for a LONG time. I really don't want to wait til I'm 40 to get married. really.
I know you are frustrated because you think we don't understand what you're going through, and how it's not like how things are for most kids.
Everyone your age thinks that.
Your life is ultimately your own, but the reason so many people have posted in so short a time is because we all recognize one or several variants of mistakes we all made when we were your age.
I think rules about who you'll marry, how long you'll know them beforehand, how long the engagement will be, and what point of your life all this will happen in are incredibly short sighted. Why all the restrictions? Guidelines are OK, but you're severely limiting yourself when there are already plenty of outside factors that will limit who you can be with.
There's age, religious beliefs, history, experience, geography, timing, career, and your own self-esteem, to name a few. I can't even begin to describe how bad an idea I think this is. You want to know someone before you get engaged. That's awesome. But you are saying, "It takes x length of time to get to know someone". And that's not something that can measured in time alone.
I have people I've been friends with for 10 years that still surprise me, and not in minor ways. Ways like, "Wait a minute, you're left-handed?", or "Since when do you play the saxophone?".
I've also met people that, after one week of serious hanging out and talking, know more about me than my own brother, and vice versa.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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It really seems to me like you've decided what you want to do and are expecting the people in this thread to advise you to follow that same course. Whenever anyone has suggested you do something else, you've said "you're wrong, trust me," "I don't want to," or that you're doing what you believe god wants/expects.
Sometimes the best thing to do isn't the thing you want to do or even the thing you think you should do.
I think if you're going to start a thread about it, which you have, you should at least give the advice you get some thought rather than just dismissing it. Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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Tinros, I also feel I had a somewhat similar situation to yours--yet very different in many ways.
My first love and I shared a very deep bond. We called ourselves soul-mates. We wanted to be together forever, and marriage seemed like the best way to do that. But we were of very different religious beliefs and worldviews. In the end, we were terribly incompatable.
But aside from that, while we kissd--a lot--there always seemed to be a point at which he pulled away. A line he wouldn't cross. Because of it, I felt free to be as liberal as I wanted with my physical affection, because he would never try to take it to the "next step".
I knew he was physically attracted to me, I know it to this day. No one could tell me differently.
But... but...
A few years after we went our separate ways (college, and my insisting that I would find and marry someone of my own faith) we got in touch. He was dating a man. He insisted that he is not homosexual--that he is *bi*sexual. Though, to my knowledge (I do not know) he has either not been with any other girls, or he has been mostly with guys.
Did this effect his lack of desire to take things to the next step? I honestly don't know. I could ask him right now (we've been in touch lately) but I don't feel comfortable asking at this point.
Sometimes you think you know someone. Then they surprise you.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote: It's hard for me to think of your relationship as healthy because it seems to be built entirely on a principle of avoidance -- and I consider avoidance to be inherently unhealthy anyway. I knew a few girls growing up who were involved in Baptist churches so strict that they were required to wear skirts and were forbidden from any physical contact with boys, including handshakes, because the alternative might lead them into temptation. All but one of them was pregnant by 19.
I think we can safely say that these Baptist girls didn't have strong religious feelings of their own, and so they rebelled against what they considered too strict. Avoidance itself is not unhealthy, when the teenagers themselves believe in its benefits and purpose. Among the more religious Orthodox Jews, as Tante Schvester mentioned, boys and girls have almost no contact at all, and don't touch at all until marriage. None of my friends - in fact, no one in my school - got pregnant before marriage. The very idea of that possibility is ludicrous to me. And yet Orthodox Jews do not have less happy marriages than the rest of the population; in fact, I'd assert just the opposite.
Posts: 196 | Registered: Jul 2002
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I recommend "The Mirror has Two Faces"...and yes I am a guy...and yes I'm straight.
Relationships are quite the tightrope. Being Selfless without being a slave. Throwing religion into the mix (nothing against religion as I am very religious myself) makes it even more complicated because there is now a third "person/entity" in the mix of your relationship.
Do what's best for Him, You, Your Relationship, Your Goals, and Your Life.
quote: If I break that, I'll have a hard time forgiving myself, let alone asking God to forgive me.
Tinros, this is exactly what I mean. All other things, all question of sex and relationships aside, you seem to have your religion backwards.
This is arguably one of the most blasphemous things you could possibly feel, with respect to Christ. The whole point of Christianity is that *while we were yet sinners* Jesus loved us enough to go through Death itself for us. It's been argued that what condemned Judas was not his treason, Peter was nearly as bad, but his inability to forgive himself and ask the same of Jesus.
Again, as others have said, this points to a hatred of physical contact more than a healthy desire for sexual purity. You yourself said you could have the man you were physical with "arrested", if I recall correctly. you also seem to have a love/hate struggle going on inside yourself with respect to your own physical desires... you are disturbed by them, but don't feel able to resist them without external motivations to aid you along.
Again... I have been there, done that, tortured myself for decades and ruined a 12 year marriage and your words sound frighteningly familiar. Please consider talking to a licensed therapist about this.
Posts: 3846 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Tinros, I'm sorry dear but I have to agree with Bev. My first thought upon reading your situtation was that Matt is gay. My second thought was "He's just not interested in you."
If he were interested in you, he would be kissing you.
Either way it's probably best for you to break it off with him before it ends badly. Especially if you're suicidal. Trust me on this. I've been there.
Of course, if someone had given me similar advice I would have ignored it trusting on love to prevail. But life isn't a story book. And love does not conquer all.
quote: Everything in my life is based on what I think God wants me to do.
Hm. I find this inutterably sad. From what you've said on this thread, I don't think your belief in God is really working for you right now.
If you'd like to talk about other philosophical alternatives, drop me a line.
That said, I'll understand if you're horribly offended by this. But it sounds to me like you're trying to patch other holes in your life -- as evidenced by depression, suicidal tendencies, and unsuccessful counseling -- with a desperate longing for God (and/or authority). This is not unusual, but neither is it healthy; in fact, the healthiest people I know managed to break out of this cycle early, under their own initiative.
Usually I would stay silent, but I'm trying a slightly different tack this time. If you're truly unhappy with certain parts of your life, maybe you could find solace in something besides religion for a while. Or even try a different religion. Because it doesn't sound like your current religion is working for you.
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quote: I think we can safely say that these Baptist girls didn't have strong religious feelings of their own, and so they rebelled against what they considered too strict.
No, I don't think we can safely say that. Unless you're going to make the argument that everyone who's failed to live up to the ideals of their faith lacks strong religious feeling, and I'm not nearly brave enough to say that in public.
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I just get the impression that right now is not the time for you to be dating Matt. You both haven't figured out what you want and how to be honest with each other. It takes times. No one knows what they want all the time. Starting college is a crazy time in life. So much changes when you go off to school. Give yourself time.
You don't have to change your core beliefs and if they matter to you, you won't. But be willing to grow and change and when later if you decide that Matt is the right person for you, you can pursue that relationship.
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Or, God does not wish to command in all things, and putting your religion does not relieve you of the obligation of finding out how to live healthily.
You can still do all the standing on your own and self-discovery thing without abandoning your religion. It's okay that it doesn't fix everything - if that were the case, then somewhere we'd be promised that being faithful would mean bypassing life's problems altogether. We can't - the things about which Tom is talking are not incompatible with your religion. You don't have to abandon it in order to find your own place.
In fact, if you abandon one system that unevenly patches the holes in your self-restraint in order to replace it with another, you still haven't solved the central issue of self-determination.
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Oh, and perhaps in part because I was able to use my first love as a "crutch" to not get in trouble, it was my next boyfriend that I really got in trouble with.
I was used to playing around with affection and never worrying about getting into trouble. I wasn't prepared to have to say "no" all the time.
I don't mean to blame the whole situation on my previous "crutch", but it occurs to me that it might have played a part.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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I wanted to marry someone with whom I had been friends for several years first. (Not that any of my friends were in the least interesting in that way to me.) I wanted to date for a year or two, and be engaged at least 1 year. After all, how can you really be sure you want to spend the REST of your life with someone without a lot of time?? I wanted to spend a lot of in-person time with anybody I dated--this was after two long-distance relationships that had been very hard.
I ended up marrying someone I had known online for about 8 years. Not a close friend, mind you, but an acquaintance. Less than a month later, we were married.
Sometimes, things just don't work out how you planned. But they do work out. Our 2nd anniversary is next month.
quote:It's hard for me to think of your relationship as healthy because it seems to be built entirely on a principle of avoidance -- and I consider avoidance to be inherently unhealthy anyway. I knew a few girls growing up who were involved in Baptist churches so strict that they were required to wear skirts and were forbidden from any physical contact with boys, including handshakes, because the alternative might lead them into temptation. All but one of them was pregnant by 19.
It's called "Hedging the Law". It means if the law says don't stick your hand into water up to your elbow you say, don't stick your hand to the wrist in water or, don't touch water with your hands at all.
Depending on the person/people and whether or not they understand the WHY behind the rule, you get reactions that vary from the "rebellious" to the "that rule saved me from a life of ruin".
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Tinros, if you’re still having suicidal thoughts, you need to talk to someone with some training to help you deal with them. If you don’t want to see a psychologist, how about a pastor or pastoral counselor?
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote: No- I had that "physical thing" once before. I made out with my other ex once, and it was the worst experience of my life, that's why I promised never to do it again. I still feel guilty about that- and it was a year and a half ago.
This is...just...so...something.
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Appeal to my vanity, why don't ya? ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
