posted
Oh, but JT, he tries so hard and earnestly to offend. It seems mean-spirited not to allow him the satisfaction of seeing us get all ruffled.
Posts: 10397 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
Tinros, You're musterbating all over the place. That's a terrible way to do things. There's no reason why you must date someone for 2 years before getting married, no reason why you must know them for a long time before that. There's no reason you must maintain a relationship with this guy when you go to college. If you feel you have to remain in this quasi-relationship or else you won't keep in touch, you shouldn't be in the relationship.
Having goals and standards and principles and hopes and such are great, but not musts. They're awful. Life is too big and too alive and too chaotic to fit into musts. The only way that works is to keep it small and repressed and cut off the things that don't fit. That's not order. That's sickness.
If you don't want to do something, have your reasons for not doing it. Evaluate those reasons and make sure they're good ones, make sure they're ones that you really believe. Don't set up crutches (edit: with the caveat that you shouldn't jump into situations that you're unprepared for). A promise to God is nothing but another must. It won't help you. Repression and musterbation rarely work, and when they do the cost is so very high.
You're clearly attracted to sex. You're just as clearly afraid of it. This is completely natural. That fear isn't going to keep you away from sex, nor is saying that you must not do it, nor is seeing it as dirty. What they do is to keep you from developing the personal strength and sense of self and meaning to say no when the time comes and make you feel really guilty afterwards. Guilt is worthless.
And the time will probably come. Denying your desire will make it work in the background. It'll get you into situations that you're not consciously expecting and not prepared for.
Acknowledge it, not as a bad part of you that you must not listen to, but as a natural part of being human. You can choose not to let it guide your actions, but that choice is going to come from a coherent sense of meaning and your self. You'll choose because of the real reasons why you don't want to do this, not because you'll feel guilty or dirty if you did, not because you think that you'll be breaking a promise to God.
This:
quote:One moment of pleasure, nine months of pain, along comes the baby, and you wish you never had that "pleasure" in the first place.
is a very poor, limited view of sex in all it's levels (from holding hands to kissing to the act itself). Sex - again in all it's levels - can be a wonderful thing. It's not just a moment's pleasure. Being at the appropriate level of physcial intimacy with someone can do and be much more than that.
But it has got to be appropriate for you, both personally and in regards to the person you're with. At 17, as I recall, that's a well-nigh impossible thing to determine. Too little or too much, it's really hard to know. The only solution I've ever known is time and experience. Give it time and don't shut yourself off from experience. Don't be afraid of mistakes - they're inevitible - but try to make them small ones.
You aren't as weak as you might think or at least you don't have to be. You've got a lot of growing you could do.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:But you seem to think your only choices are staying with a guy who isn't sure he loves you "that way" and being with a jerk.
Seems to me there is a lot of middle ground there that you are missing, Tinros.
I agree with Bev. I really feel like we're not getting the whole story here. Most reasonable people would know that there is a happy middle ground between chaste "friends" and sex fiend.
There are plenty of respectful young men who would be willing to court you without taking your relationship with them to a sexual level.
This, in particular, is troubling:
quote:I made that mistake after the first time my boyfriend and I broke up, and I could have that guy arrested if I wanted.
It sounds like you've had some terrible experiences with the opposite sex. While I admire your moral convictions, I wonder if there aren't some unresolved issues lurking in the psyche.
Go out and explore the world. There are plenty of guys out there who will respect your beliefs and yet bounce off the walls because they are so attracted to you that every second of not holding you and kissing you feels like an eternity of torture. Go find these guys.
quote: I am not very religious, but I belive in God. I view him as more personal though, like a very powerful friend, that helps other people too.
I think you're thinking of Batman.
edited to add:
quote:We broke up.
I'm sorry to hear that. I wrote this post before your last post. How are you handling it? Are you going to remain friends?
Posts: 4116 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote: Very frustrated, especially at those who told me that not only were my beliefs on the subject wrong, that my very religion is wrong. I REALLY don't appreciate that. btw, I'm technically Baptist, but it's more non-denominational.
Okay, I have to ask this, but you don't have to answer:
Do you go to one of those big "non-denominational" Protestant churches with enormous projection screens, white school buses, and a backing band (which may or may not also do youth-oriented skits)?
Because, if so, I have one piece of advice that might sound entirely out of left field, but which I'm completely serious about: one Sunday, instead of going to that service, find a Quaker service in your area and attend that one instead.
Sometimes a religion is, to quote Terry Pratchett, like a caddis shell.
(Edit: Wow. This moved fast. Best of luck with everything, Tinros -- and keep us posted.)
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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As in, "you dropped the boyfriend/girlfriend title and are still going to remain really good friends" or "there was a big argument and you are not talking to each other anymore"?
Hopefully you can remain close friends. sometimes relationships can get in the way of good friendships, if that makes any sense at all, so this might be a good thing for you.
Posts: 1256 | Registered: May 2005
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I only know what you've told us about the situation, but I think you did the right thing. I hope you both are alright with it.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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While Batman may indeed be a good religious role model -- especially since his disciple Robin makes a habit of indicating whether or not anything is "Holy" when it's encountered -- I think Superman is a more obvious choice. After all, Kal-El's been sent by his heavenly father to live among humans and protect them from evil, is most familiarly called by his title, and has died and been reborn.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: While Batman may indeed be a good religious role model -- especially since his disciple Robin makes a habit of indicating whether or not anything is "Holy" when it's encountered -- I think Superman is a more obvious model. After all, Jor-El's been sent by his heavenly father to live among humans and protect them from evil, is most familiarly called by his title, and has died and been reborn.
Ah, so the reason why science can't find God is because he's wearing glasses. Things are so clear now.
Posts: 1256 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
No word yet whether his secret HQ at the North Pole is staffed by elves or just Marlon Brando's giant disembodied head.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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You don't want to get married until you're 28?
I'm 21 and already feel like I'm never going to find anyone. If I'm NOT married by the time I'm 28 I'll just give up and adopt.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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This page has made me laugh out loud several times now.
Tinros, sorry about the break-up tonight! Was that your intent when you called Matt, or did it develop into that? I share camus' concerns. I hope that it wasn't too wounding to future chances of friendship.
Losing a good friend is always so hard. Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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You know, I had been worried that I came off as the most offensively tactless person on this thread. Thank you, Kaosnix, for making me feel better about myself.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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I have entirely too many opinions and thoughts on this topic, but just to throw a few things out. . .(not very coherently, given the late hour)
1. You talk a lot about physical intimacy as a marker of relationships, but beyond that you seem to consider boyfriend/girlfriend merely an empty label. What about emotional intimacy? You say you enjoy spending time hanging out with him more than with other people; that's a start, but what about more private activities? Did you talk together alone, share your hopes and dreams and worries and everything else? Did you try never to hide things from him? Did you find yourself thinking, every day, about things you'd seen and done and wanted to tell him later? Whether physical intimacy is kissing or holding hands, it doesn't have nearly as much to do with whether or not something is a romantic relationship than the emotional intimacy involved.
2. While I believe emotional intimacy is more important, physical intimacy also says a lot in a romantic relationship. You say kissing is a hard limit for you; okay. What about other kinds of physical intimacy, beyond holding hands? Embracing each other, running your fingers through each other's hair. . .all those other little things that worldlessly tell the other person how important it is to them to have you there. Physical contact isn't just about lustful desire, and it seems to me like you conflate the two an awful lot.
3. For that matter, why is kissing so tied up with lustful desire for you? Obviously one can have lustful kisses, but don't you also kiss your parents and other relatives as a way of showing your (non-lustful) love for them? (Personally, I also kiss friends with whom I have no past/present/future romantic or sexual involvement and have been kissed in return, just as a gesture of closeness and caring.) Kisses, like other physical contact, can say a lot beyond sexual desire; why do you feel that one will immediately lead to the other?
4. When you talk about sexual intimacy in relationship to your religious beliefs, you do so in a negative sense -- "Breaking my word would be a terrible thing to do." I'm neither Christian nor particularly devout in my own religious tradition, so perhaps I shouldn't try to interpret theology, but aren't there positive reasons for avoiding early sexual intimacy as well? Can you think of it instead entirely in terms of "Postponing sexual intimacy will make my eventual marriage more meaningful" or even just "Postponing sexual intimacy is what God wants me to do"? Behavior based on positive conviction has to be easier to maintain over the long term than guilt-based compliance.
Posts: 650 | Registered: Mar 2005
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I'm sorry to hear that you broke up, Tinros. I hope you feel better.
quote:Originally posted by Katarain: I think there's too much wondering about Matt's sexuality based on his decision to not kiss until he is married. I had a friend who believed the same thing, and he is now happily married. It is possible for a guy to have convictions and live up to them, you know. It's not only women who decide to be abstinent before marriage--and it is NOT impossible for a guy to live up to such convictions.
My husband had convictions of his own and waited for the right girl--Me. He was actually propositioned several times by different women, and said no. I'm sure it wasn't EASY, but he did it anyway. Since he actually lived up to his principles, I'm sure some people questioned his sexuality, thinking he was just hiding in the closet. Well, they were wrong. Very wrong. So nyah. So don't be writing this guy off as gay or not interested just because he's trying to live up to his moral code.
-Katarain
I agree that there was too much speculation about Matt's reasons for not kissing, and his sexual orientation. Beliefs can and often do trump desire, and we who have never met him and know little about him should give him the benefit of the doubt.
Posts: 6316 | Registered: Jun 2003
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I’m still much more concerned about the depression and suicidal thoughts than about the boyfriend.
Tinros, if you don’t want to see a psychologist, talk to a pastor with a counseling background. Depression is serious business, and unless your talk of suicide was teenage hyperbole you need to get some help dealing with it. Depression and suicide are NOT part of God’s plan for you and there are caring people who are called by God to help people who are struggling emotionally. Insisting on handling this yourself smacks of pride, not of strength.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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KOM, this is not the right place for that kind of comment.
If you would like to start another thread about religious influence on sexuality, that would be neat.
Personally, I'm looking forward to a new thread about Marlon Brando's giant disembodied head. But that's just me. Posts: 4116 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:wow... I've never been more happy to be an atheist.
A person's suffering makes you happy, or is it the delusion that you're somehow better than everyone else that makes you happy?
Posts: 1256 | Registered: May 2005
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Tinros, let us know how you're doing in the coming days, will you? I'd really like to hear about the stuff you're doing...band, school, whatever.
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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No, it saddens me that this young girl is going through all of these problems, but it seems to me that her relationship with god is the only common factor in all of those problems. Don't get me wrong, this girl has many other issues that need to be delt with professionally, but she might also want to (as TomD said as well) closely examine her religious beliefs.
Posts: 441 | Registered: Jun 2005
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Matt and I are just best friends now. It was my intent to "drop the title" when I talked to him last night, and we did... and we just talked about anything and everything for over 2 hours.
As for the level of emotional intimacy? It was there. We cuddled on the couch, little things like that, but hands obeyed themselves, and so did eyes. I don't think much of that is going to change, although I will really miss our "tickle wars" on his couch, and he says he will too.
I'm only suicidal every GREAT once in a while. I dont hurt myself anymore, and actually, I don't think I will ever again. Matt gave me enough reasons not to. And I do talk to my youth pastor a lot, he's helped too. I'm doing okay now.
I've decided not to date my senior year. Matt and I are going to homecoming and prom as friends, just because we don't want to miss out on all those senior year perks. But I'm gonna stay single until I've had the chance to reevaluate my priorities, and my direction in life. The things that have been said here(well, most of them) have really gotten me thinking, and I think I'll think some more, if that makes sense.
posted
I'm sorry that you're hurting but I'm glad you will be fine.
I loved reading: "I'm gonna stay single until I've had the chance to reevaluate my priorities, and my direction in life." It sounds like a really smart and a very mature thing to do. God speed on your journey of self exploration and I hope you are happier and healthier and stronger for doing so. Posts: 5879 | Registered: Apr 2001
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But it's only an activity that single friends can engage in. If you're married or dating someone ELSE, you best not be tickling that friend of yours. Posts: 2880 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Im 22 and a I cant imagine married life for atleast six more years.
There are a lot of people who feel this way (and who don't feel ready until they're even older, too.) But that doesn't mean you should discount those of us who have different needs and priorities. There are a lot of us out there, too.
*is also 22*
*has been married 2 years and has a 16-month-old*
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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I'm just afraid that Matt will look at it as kind of weird if nothing like that changes. He has a pretty much "hands-off" policy.
Posts: 1591 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Tinros, I read your latest few posts with pleasure and relief. Please keep your chin up and keep considering, not only what others have said, but what you said here as well.
good luck and have a great senior year!
Posts: 3846 | Registered: Apr 2004
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No, seriously, dkw. How do you know that suicide is not in your god's plan? After all, as someone is sure to point out every time I mention natural disasters, 'death is not the worst thing that can happen to a person.' Certainly Yahweh has ordered the death of a lot of people, even entire nations, for crimes committed by their ancestors.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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