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Author Topic: Battlestar Galactica Season 4.5 Thread
Goody Scrivener
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quote:
There's some quasi mystical force that is guiding everything
ODL don't let it be midichlorians!!!
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Nighthawk
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I think that the end of the last episode is going to be the reveal that it was all a dream in Adama's head. And that Adama's really a nine year old autistic child in rural Kentucky.

Or something.

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Telperion the Silver
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
We've already seen Earth with our continents exactly, when Kara came back and they showed Earth, and when they showed her gun camera footage. It's Earth. It's OUR Earth. It's just not our reality.

And yet there were the ruins of old NYC.
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Jon Boy
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quote:
Originally posted by Goody Scrivener:
quote:
There's some quasi mystical force that is guiding everything
ODL don't let it be midichlorians!!!
[ROFL]
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Jon Boy
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quote:
Originally posted by Telperion the Silver:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
We've already seen Earth with our continents exactly, when Kara came back and they showed Earth, and when they showed her gun camera footage. It's Earth. It's OUR Earth. It's just not our reality.

And yet there were the ruins of old NYC.
The point remains that the nuked planet was Earth.
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Corwin
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quote:
Originally posted by Goody Scrivener:
quote:
There's some quasi mystical force that is guiding everything
ODL don't let it be midichlorians!!!
[ROFL]
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Lyrhawn
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quote:
Originally posted by Telperion the Silver:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
We've already seen Earth with our continents exactly, when Kara came back and they showed Earth, and when they showed her gun camera footage. It's Earth. It's OUR Earth. It's just not our reality.

And yet there were the ruins of old NYC.
I actually thought it looked more like Sydney, but the bridge was very Brooklyn like.
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BryanP
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
We've already seen Earth with our continents exactly, when Kara came back and they showed Earth, and when they showed her gun camera footage. It's Earth. It's OUR Earth. It's just not our reality.

Yeah, they clearly showed our planet at the end of season 3, but not in season 4, when they were supposedly on the planet itself. I just find that too coincidental, and dammit I'm sticking to that opinion until the final 3 hours prove me wrong.
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Lyrhawn
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Do we have any other evidence that Ron Moore has deliberately misled people? He's already said that it's Earth in interviews, so he'd have to be lying flat out.
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BryanP
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
Do we have any other evidence that Ron Moore has deliberately misled people? He's already said that it's Earth in interviews, so he'd have to be lying flat out.

I dunno about him misleading people, but his answer on that was sketchy cause the interviewer asked if they had found "our Earth" and Moore said they found Earth, the planet the 13th colony "christened Earth." Or something to that effect. And why not lie flat out like that? It definitely throws people for a loop. I know Aaron Douglas said something about the final five not resurrecting, which they obviously do. It's not out of the question.

In a way I hope I'm wrong cause I have no idea how they'd work our Earth into it without it being overly convoluted. Unless they settle the planet and are the first humans on it, which would be really cool in a way.

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Michiel
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I'm positive that the 'Earth' they discovered isn't our Earth. RDM said in an interview the Cylons 'called' the planet Earth.

Now that we've finally seen the real Jupiter in Friday's episode, surely real Earth can't be far off. But they may not call it Earth. Call it 'Home' instead...

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ReddwarfVII
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Or our Earth was Kobol and we have all been dead for thousands of years.

The cylons definately named the planet they colonized Earth. So where did the name "Earth" come from. The 12 colonies got their names from the Lords of Kobol who were potentially named for the constellations? So the name could be name of the 13th Lord of Kobol or the name refers to someplace more ancient

I have always said since the end of season 4.0 that the Earth they landed on is not "our" Earth. RDM did state in an interview that the planet the cylons colonized was "christened" Earth. They named it.

So it could be our Earth and BSG simply operates in a different time and place than our existance (very plausible) or the Earth that was founded by the cylons was named after another planet entirely.

Or for a third theory, Earth is our Earth and the cylons recolonized it after leaving Kobol. If they had been on Kobol for a few thousand years, a nuked planet would have time to recover and be habitable again. Look at Kobol. If it hadn't been for the immeadiate threat of the cylons showing up, humanity could have resettled that planet. It could make sense that while humanity would seek out new home worlds after the war on Kobol that the cylons would want to reclaim the ancient home of their creators as their own.

Of course we really have to be prepared for the reality that RDM and company are not going to answer these sets of questions. Ancient history like this may not be something within the scope of the last two episodes that needs to be covered. They simply may not have the time or inclination to give us any further exposition on the topic. It is possibly just not an important part of the story.

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Michiel
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Good point. I've always been very partial to the idea that Kobol=(our) Earth. After all, in the BSG universe, 'Kobol is more than important than Earth', it is 'the birthplace of us all.'

On the other hand, we clearly saw Jupiter in this week's episode and there has been this build-up --- also we have seen 'our' Earth -- Starbuck found it. There must be an explanation for this at some point, no?

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ReddwarfVII
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quote:
Originally posted by Michiel:
On the other hand, we clearly saw Jupiter in this week's episode and there has been this build-up --- also we have seen 'our' Earth -- Starbuck found it. There must be an explanation for this at some point, no?

Well, I would not say that I am 100% sure about the Jupiter thing and I don't think that you can say that Starbuck found Earth. The Starbuck that returned to Galatica certainly was convinced that she found Earth. Granted her gun camera's make it look like she found Earth, but the Starbuck that returned to Galatica is the not the same Starbuck. We know that. She also has no idea how she got to Earth and how she got back either. You really can't say with absolutely certainty that she actually made it to Earth and back.

And can you really say that she actually led the fleet to earth? If I remember correctly, it was the final five that made her take notice of her Viper at the moment they picked up on the signal that led the fleet to the former cylon homeworld. When I look at the whole picture, I cannot say that I am convinced that Kara actually led the fleet anywhere....yet.

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Telperion the Silver
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Something to think about, how would the people of Kobol be able to build the Tomb of Athena with all the constellations set in the exact way they would be seen from Earth without ever going there? The Kobolians (or perhaps the Lords of Kobol) must have known about Earth before the Exodus from Paradise. That or someone came back to Kobol from Earth to build it. The Final Five perhaps?

But how would the Sacred Scrolls of the Twelve Colonies know about the Tomb of Athena and its importance in finding Earth then? What we have to accept is that the constellations on Kobol are shaped and named after OUR reality. Those very constellations were the ancient names of the Twelve Tribes and later the 12 Homeworlds.

So the planet the Galactica found MUST have been OUR Earth as those very constellations matched up. They even double checked them to be sure. So how did that map get into the Tomb of Athena?
It couldn't be the FF, as the 12 Colonies were settled and knew about the names before the FF would have even left Earth.

I also am leaning towards the idea that the word "Human" was the name the Lords of Kobol gave to their "artificial" creations. Humans are to the Lords of Kobol as the Cylons are to Humanity.

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Lyrhawn
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If that planet was Jupiter, what was the very large bluish planet that was in front of it? Sure, there's perspective, but if that was one of Jupiter's moons, Jupiter would have looked infinitely more massive than it did, and the planet would have been smaller.
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ReddwarfVII
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quote:
Originally posted by Telperion the Silver:
I also am leaning towards the idea that the word "Human" was the name the Lords of Kobol gave to their "artificial" creations. Humans are to the Lords of Kobol as the Cylons are to Humanity.

Actually, they way this whole "This has happened before and will happen again" cycle is playing out, I think you are probably right on the money.

Maybe the Lords of Kobol were Lords because they had the resurrection technology themselves. The humans of Kobol were called human because they were created without the ability to resurrect. The humans in turn created cylons who could resurrect and therefore keeping the cycle alive and well.

Anyways, I think you are right Telp, Earth had to exist before Kobol otherwise it would not make sense that they could program a map back to it in the Tomb of Athena. The same map the cylons followed back to Earth to recolonize it after the war on Kobol.

Hey! Maybe that's why Earth was still a nuclear wasteland even after two thousand years. It is the only planet so far to get nuked planetwide more than once.

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Telperion the Silver
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So how about the upcoming suicide mission?
Galactica's last mission, the attack on the Cylon Colony Ship I bet. With help of the Rebel Basestar? You'd think they would try and preserve at least one capital ship...without which the Fleet would be s.o.l.

The Colony Ship was pretty cool looking from what little we saw. A massive bio-mechanical marvel. Could this be the place where they "grow" new Basestars? Did see a few Basestar-esque pylons sticking out the top...as well as two huge arms coming out the sides. Nice to see the old school raiders alongside the modern ones. From the looks of it the Colony is many miles across...and we only saw a bit of it, who knows how large it really is.

I once called the Central Hub the heart of the Cylon nation... and railed against the ridiculous idea that ONLY TWO Basestars were assigned to guard it. Being the most strategically valuable target imaginable.

But it seems that the Colony Ship is the core. Or at least a reactivated core (assuming it might have been abandoned since the migration from the 12 Colonies) now that the Central Hub is gone.

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BryanP
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quote:
Originally posted by Telperion the Silver:

So the planet the Galactica found MUST have been OUR Earth as those very constellations matched up. They even double checked them to be sure. So how did that map get into the Tomb of Athena?
It couldn't be the FF, as the 12 Colonies were settled and knew about the names before the FF would have even left Earth.

Did they actually say anything about checking the constellations when they made it to Earth? I don't recall. Certainly there was no reference to the Tomb of Athena, bizarrely enough. It is rather a gaping plot hole that they wouldn't have bothered to check the constellations so I'm inclined to think you're right.
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Telperion the Silver
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quote:
Originally posted by BryanP:
quote:
Originally posted by Telperion the Silver:

So the planet the Galactica found MUST have been OUR Earth as those very constellations matched up. They even double checked them to be sure. So how did that map get into the Tomb of Athena?
It couldn't be the FF, as the 12 Colonies were settled and knew about the names before the FF would have even left Earth.

Did they actually say anything about checking the constellations when they made it to Earth? I don't recall. Certainly there was no reference to the Tomb of Athena, bizarrely enough. It is rather a gaping plot hole that they wouldn't have bothered to check the constellations so I'm inclined to think you're right.
They did check. As soon as they jumped into orbit Gaeta checked the star patterns and Adama ordered him to take his time and get it right.

And while they did not mention the Tomb of Athena in that particular episode, Starbuck did talk about how the star patterns matched the ones they found in the Tomb when she was being interrogated apon her initial return from the dead.

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Blayne Bradley
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all the constellation mahjiggy crud is the map to THEIR "Earth" or Terra or Aurora for the Asimov fans, not nessasarily to OUR Earth assuming the writer hasnt tossed out are non fictional history.
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Telperion the Silver
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Blayne, except that the constellations are the Zodiac: Pieces, Capricorn, Leo, Scorpio, Aquarius, etc...

Which can only be seen from our Earth.

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BryanP
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*MAJOR DAYBREAK PART I SPOILERS*


I have to say I kind of wish I had waited till next week to watch this episode... the flashbacks truly threw me off and had me very impatient, and while I have to imagine they tie things together in some relevant fashion, they were just confusing in tonight's episode. So confusing in fact that whereas before I had a great deal of faith in the ending I'm now really quite wary that it's going to be disappointing. I understand the setup in past episodes was necessary, but this was odd. That said I'm totally open to the fact that it is going to become relevant next week but now I'm just sort of confused as to why all this was needed.

On the bright side, the colony being on the edge of a singularity makes for a great setup for the final showdown, but they still have major questions to answer and have to settle this thing and man the flashbacks were just so weird and I have no idea where this is headed.

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Lyrhawn
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Spoilers...obviously

I liked the flashbacks. We needed the contrast.

Could anything have said more about how far some of these characters come more than showing them before the whole mess started and then showing them where they are now? It's their way of saying "this is the end, and here's how far we've come." I thought it was excellent. I didn't really get what was going on with Lee's flashback with the pigeon, did I miss something? But I DID notice two obvious things about Kara's, well, three. One, I don't remember her dating Zack, I do remember something about her training him though. But they showed the painting on the entryway into her apartment from the Temple of Five, and her apartment is an exact replica of the apartment Leoben forced her to share with him on New Caprica, I don't think we knew that before.

There was some slowness in this one, and maybe getting the coordinates from Anders was a little cheap and easy, but whatever, like no one saw him coming as the ex deus machina anyways.

For all the weight of some of the things touched on, like Tyrol's issue with Boomer, and Karl and Athena's relationship, I really thought they would have spent more time on that, but I guess they really don't need to.

I really wanted to see Baltar cross the line and go with them. Not just because he's part of this whole thing and needs to be there, but for his personal growth as a character. But the episode next week makes it look like he is part of the fighting, which means I think he'll go. His conversation with Lee, his flashbacks with Six, and the look on his face, the hesitation (well acted) during the choosing scene made it pretty clear.

Between now and next week, it'd be great if people could post all the questions they want answered about the show. What exactly is everyone specifically looking for the next episode to wrap up? I think I've forgotten half my questions the plot is so labyrinthine. What don't we know that this last episode has to answer?

I really have high hopes for it. The stage is set for the final showdown.

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Nighthawk
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quote:
One, I don't remember her dating Zack...
*SEASON ONE SPOILER*

I've been recently watching the first season; they had a very serious romantic relationship. She passed him on Basic Flight because of it, even though he didn't merit it, and that's what got him killed.

And it's "Zak". [Smile]

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Lyrhawn
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Oh yeah, that rings a bell now. The first season almost feels like a totally different show it's so far away, and the plot lines from the first season have almost totally gone dormant by now.
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Yozhik
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Kara and Zak were, in fact, engaged, although they hadn't announced it as of Zak's death.
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Blayne Bradley
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quote:
Originally posted by Telperion the Silver:
Blayne, except that the constellations are the Zodiac: Pieces, Capricorn, Leo, Scorpio, Aquarius, etc...

Which can only be seen from our Earth.

except i do not think they were actually looking at those constellations in particular but the equivilent.
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BryanP
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Alright, I'm sort of starting to agree with Lyrhawn on the flashbacks. Which is good... I do want to like it after all.

As for the questions I would like answered:

1) What is Kara? Half cylon/human? Clone? Harbinger of death?

2) The nature of Head Six/Baltar. I think these are the forces that are influencing all the actions - the music, the revelation of the five to D'Anna, etc., but I've been wrong a lot about this show.

3) Some linkage between the Tomb of Athena and Earth, whether it's the Earth we've seen or our planet. Thinking back, isn't it odd that while in the Tomb they stood on Earth or "Earth" and it wasn't a nuclear wasteland? Wasn't it at Stonehenge? And yet there was no reference to that when they were on that planet. So either they were back in time, the Tomb was really technologically sophisticated or they were on a different planet. In the end I think this will be an unexplained plot hole but we shall see.

I think that's it, really.

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Marlozhan
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I assumed that the scene with Lee was after he found out his brother died. It looked liked he was drunk from being depressed. However, I can't remember when Zak died, so I don't know if it lines up with the timeline.
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neo-dragon
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Here's something that I've been wondering about for a while. There are supposedly millions of copies of the humanoid cylons, so why does it never seem like it? The colonials should be vastly out numbered, but they never seem to have to deal with more than a few baseships at a time. One of the biggest battles in the series, the rescue from New Caprica, only involved 4 baseships. And if all the 2s, 6s, and 8s (minus boomer) have rebelled against Cavil and the rest, how come there's only one rebel baseship with the fleet? The rebels should represent half of the cylon race. Unless there's a million skinjobs per baseship, it doesn't seem to add up.

As for last night's episode, the flashbacks made it feel like an episode of Lost. I didn't mind them though. It is interesting to see how much they're lives have changed. They've really gone through hell...

Also, I was so rooting for Baltar to step over the line. I've always felt that there's more good in him than anyone gives him credit for, and I really want him to prove it before the end.

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0Megabyte
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Well, back in season four, Cavil's forces ambushed a small fleet of the 268's, and Natalie's basestar just happened to be the only one to survive.

I doubt there weren't any others, but that group was separated and destroyed. The war was probably going on elsewhere, too, and probably not entirely one way, because if it had already ended, (which would have been the case if that rebel basestar was all that was left), then why would good ole' Brother John Cavil have resurrected D'Anna, to try to talk the 268's out of continuing to fight?

By now, though, I assume that the war is over. I wouldn't be surprised, though, if it had killed a lot of Cylons.

However, as for the earlier seasons... I don't really know. Maybe they just don't have THAT many basestars. Who knows how many of them were in the Hub, and I'd assume a large group of them were at the Colony...

After all, if they had all THAT many basestars, enough to have true military superiority against the Colonies, they probably wouldn't have needed to go through the years of effort to shut down Colonial computer systems.

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Mucus
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
... But they showed the painting on the entryway into her apartment from the Temple of Five, and her apartment is an exact replica of the apartment Leoben forced her to share with him on New Caprica, I don't think we knew that before.

I dunno, Helo and Kara visited the apartment before on Caprica but IIRC it looked fairly different and well, dumpy and crappy. However, it did have that descending stairway on the left. I guess the differences could be due the whole nuking thing, but then the surrounding area didn't seem all that affected so *shrug*

To be honest, most of the flashbacks threw me. Lots of new information that seemed to be plausible, but kinda random and stretched. There better be a bigger game than just the contrast between the characters then and now.

quote:
Originally posted by Marlozhan:
I assumed that the scene with Lee was after he found out his brother died. It looked liked he was drunk from being depressed. However, I can't remember when Zak died, so I don't know if it lines up with the timeline.

According to the Battlestar Wiki
http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Zak_Adama
that gives two years before the Fall of the Twelve Colonies, which may date everything.

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Mucus
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quote:
Originally posted by BryanP:
...
3) Some linkage between the Tomb of Athena and Earth, whether it's the Earth we've seen or our planet. Thinking back, isn't it odd that while in the Tomb they stood on Earth or "Earth" and it wasn't a nuclear wasteland? Wasn't it at Stonehenge? And yet there was no reference to that when they were on that planet. So either they were back in time, the Tomb was really technologically sophisticated or they were on a different planet. In the end I think this will be an unexplained plot hole but we shall see.

IIRC, from a summary of the commentary of the episode, the scene was going to end with Centurions busting into the place. I think the idea was just that the tomb was just a hologram, a holodeck, if you will and not any crazy travel device. So the lack of nuclear wasteland is just a problem with them not getting their latest system packs and patches.
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BryanP
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quote:
Originally posted by Mucus:
quote:
Originally posted by BryanP:
...
3) Some linkage between the Tomb of Athena and Earth, whether it's the Earth we've seen or our planet. Thinking back, isn't it odd that while in the Tomb they stood on Earth or "Earth" and it wasn't a nuclear wasteland? Wasn't it at Stonehenge? And yet there was no reference to that when they were on that planet. So either they were back in time, the Tomb was really technologically sophisticated or they were on a different planet. In the end I think this will be an unexplained plot hole but we shall see.

IIRC, from a summary of the commentary of the episode, the scene was going to end with Centurions busting into the place. I think the idea was just that the tomb was just a hologram, a holodeck, if you will and not any crazy travel device. So the lack of nuclear wasteland is just a problem with them not getting their latest system packs and patches.
Interesting, the things you miss out on when you don't listen to the commentaries.

Thanks though, that seems perfectly plausible but too bad they didn't work that in cause it's really ambiguous.

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neo-dragon
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I thought that it was pretty clearly a hologram rather than them somehow being physically transported to Earth and back. That really wouldn't have made much sense. I mean, you figure they would have investigated the tomb a lot further if it actually had the ability to take them to Earth. That would be pretty darn significant, don't you think?
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Jon Boy
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And they never explained how they got back, either, so it does make sense that they never really left.
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Lyrhawn
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I assumed either hologram, or some sort of quasi mystical out of body experience.
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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Nighthawk:
quote:
One, I don't remember her dating Zack...
*SEASON ONE SPOILER*

I've been recently watching the first season; they had a very serious romantic relationship. She passed him on Basic Flight because of it, even though he didn't merit it, and that's what got him killed.

And it's "Zak". [Smile]

You're both mistaken. Yes, she and Zak were together. But it was Lee who passed him on Basic Flight even though he didn't merit it. That's why Lee and his father were barely on speaking terms when BSG started. Adama held Lee responsible for his brother's death.
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ricree101
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quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:
Originally posted by Nighthawk:
quote:
One, I don't remember her dating Zack...
*SEASON ONE SPOILER*

I've been recently watching the first season; they had a very serious romantic relationship. She passed him on Basic Flight because of it, even though he didn't merit it, and that's what got him killed.

And it's "Zak". [Smile]

You're both mistaken. Yes, she and Zak were together. But it was Lee who passed him on Basic Flight even though he didn't merit it. That's why Lee and his father were barely on speaking terms when BSG started. Adama held Lee responsible for his brother's death.
Where was this ever said? I can remember Lee blaming his father for pushing Zak into a career that he wasn't able to carry out, and I can remember Starbuck passing Zak because of their relationship, but I cannot remember Lee being blamed for it.
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Fyfe
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I just got through watching the first season, and it was definitely Starbuck who passed Zak through basic flight. Not Lee. Wasn't Lee's fault at all.
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Corwin
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Yeap, Starbuck's fault. There's even an episode in which Bill Adama finds out about it, no?
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twinky
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Yes, that's right. And he was PISSED.
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Lisa
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Oops. You're right. I misremembered.
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Mocke
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neo -

I asssumed that the millions of copies being reduced bit came from two things:
First, the resurrection bodies. Lots of unused bodies waiting for consciousnesses to be uploaded.
Second, we only saw one or two fights in the civil war. I imagine that the revolt happened everywhere, and it was quite devestating. The fallout being that there are very limited numbers of copies of each model now, especially for the Sharons, Capricas, D'annas, and Leobans, since they apparently only have one base ship.

Also, there is only one Cavil. There might be tons of copies wandering around, but we can pretty much figure from his conversation with Ellen that they have sacrificed that element of their humanity.


ON A DIFFERENT NOTE:
Did anyone see the short scene where Hera is crashing the battlestar into a base ship? FORESHADOWING much?

Also --
Baltar will redeem himself. He might not have stepped over that line, but he will do something.

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BryanP
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I don't know if Baltar can ever truly "redeem" himself. But he can do an act of selfless good before the end comes.
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BandoCommando
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Not unlike any number of Jack Bauer's bosses, but that's another show.
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Lyrhawn
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quote:
Originally posted by BryanP:
I don't know if Baltar can ever truly "redeem" himself. But he can do an act of selfless good before the end comes.

For which thing? As far as his complicity in the breakdown of the defense network, I think he's stupid and foolish, but how could he possibly have guessed what would happen? If he had known about skinjobs and still did that, then I'd say he's beyond redemption, but a lot of what he's done has been pure survival instinct, and for what a LOT of people in that fleet have done, I don't think he's more beyond redemption than any of them. Lee said it all in his speech during Baltar's trial. They've all done things that under normal circumstances would leave them beyond forgiveness, but most of them have also shown great courage, and internally we can still love these characters as a result. Baltar is maybe the only one left that we WANT to like, but can't seem to for all his flaws. I think before it's over he'll join the others in being a hair over the line into redeemed for all his faults.
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BryanP
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
quote:
Originally posted by BryanP:
I don't know if Baltar can ever truly "redeem" himself. But he can do an act of selfless good before the end comes.

For which thing? As far as his complicity in the breakdown of the defense network, I think he's stupid and foolish, but how could he possibly have guessed what would happen? If he had known about skinjobs and still did that, then I'd say he's beyond redemption, but a lot of what he's done has been pure survival instinct, and for what a LOT of people in that fleet have done, I don't think he's more beyond redemption than any of them. Lee said it all in his speech during Baltar's trial. They've all done things that under normal circumstances would leave them beyond forgiveness, but most of them have also shown great courage, and internally we can still love these characters as a result. Baltar is maybe the only one left that we WANT to like, but can't seem to for all his flaws. I think before it's over he'll join the others in being a hair over the line into redeemed for all his faults.
Maybe you're right but he has committed sins that IMO outdo almost everyone else in the show. Among the ones I can remember: Keeping the effectiveness of his cylon detector under wraps (if I recall he knew about Boomer but said nothing); giving the nuke to the Pegasus Six; and I want to say he gave away fleet secrets while aboard the baseship in season 3 but I can't recall for sure.

So, okay, he's not knowingly committed any heinous crimes but his action or lack thereof has led to the destruction of the 12 colonies, the near-death of Adama, the nuking of at least one ship in the fleet, and the settling of New Caprica. So maybe he's not beyond redemption but he has an uphill struggle. Still, I'd like to see him cross that line and help out. I think he will, we have the opera house scene to play out, after all.

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Blayne Bradley
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to be fair, he thought boomer would kill him.
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