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also, rememeber first episode of the miniseries, baltar almost took the ticket from the old lady but instead insured that she got on (taking the ticket i think nearly anyone then would have done)
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Evidently Moore's podcast for "Islanded..." contains some information relating to the theories out there on Daniel and the speculated upon link to Kara. I daresay it's not really a spoiler since Moore wants you to know this information ahead of watching the finale, but I'm sure to some this is more information (or lack thereof) than they care to know:
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It was pretty clear, to me at least, that that decision was made when Baltar was worried that 'the authorities' knew his complicity. He seemed very frightened, if memory serves. If so, perhaps that decision wasn't motivated by altruistically helping the little old lady, but rather desperately avoiding 'the law'.
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Huh, I never interpreted it like that. Everyone was trying their damnest to board the ship, I don't think Baltar thought that remaining on the planet was a viable alternative.
Posts: 4519 | Registered: Sep 2003
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Really? Wasn't his first response to being asked even his name, "Oh, I haven't done anything." I'll have to re-watch.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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I think you're right. Baltar was definitely startled into getting the old lady onto the Raptor rather than making an actual decision as to whether to take the ticket or not.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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In the first season, he was influenced quite a lot by Caprica 6, who seemed/seems a bit more evil. It's funny that when we see Caprica again later, she has an inner Baltar who seems quite good.
I doubt Baltar will survive, but I imagine he will do something quite noble with lasting effects before this is out.
Posts: 86 | Registered: Feb 2009
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I think Kara is a projection. She's dead for sure, but is a projection from whatever she is or wherever she is now.
Just as the Cylons can Project internally, and the Head-Beings can project themselves into the minds of others...Kara is projecting a physical form into this dimension. And who knows, maybe the same with the brand new fighter as well.
I think the Head-Beings are the same. This would also explain how Head Six could become real in the first season, when Baltar pissed her off and she came to accuse him of destroying the Defense Mainframe, why while Ms. Godfree was on the ship she wasn't in his head, and how she could just vanish even though she was being watched by a couple marines.
[ March 18, 2009, 03:14 AM: Message edited by: Telperion the Silver ]
Posts: 4953 | Registered: Jan 2004
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Well, as far as I know neither of those deals with what happens after the last episode, no? So, in a sense, it is over.
I'm not sad about it, but I want it to have a grand finish. Last week's episode felt like an overly long prelude...
Posts: 4519 | Registered: Sep 2003
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So it seems they screened the finale for one hundred or so media-types on Monday. They are under stiff spoiler embargoes but I have still tried to find some opinions and it sounds like the finale does not disappoint. It apparently even answers many or most of the major questions despite being incredibly action-packed. Sounds awesome, can't wait.
Posts: 326 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: There's still the movie. And Caprica.
Yeah, I know. I'm sooo looking forward to watching Eric Stoltz. I'm still going to miss watching the BSG regulars in the series.
Posts: 3771 | Registered: Sep 2002
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quote:Originally posted by BryanP: So it seems they screened the finale for one hundred or so media-types on Monday. They are under stiff spoiler embargoes but I have still tried to find some opinions and it sounds like the finale does not disappoint. It apparently even answers many or most of the major questions despite being incredibly action-packed. Sounds awesome, can't wait.
quote:Originally posted by Mocke: In the first season, he was influenced quite a lot by Caprica 6, who seemed/seems a bit more evil. It's funny that when we see Caprica again later, she has an inner Baltar who seems quite good.
I doubt Baltar will survive, but I imagine he will do something quite noble with lasting effects before this is out.
I always got the impression, from both this most recent flashback and everything we've seen of her that the real Caprica Six was a much, much more conflicted character than Head-Six made her out to be. We find that, even though she knew that his father was going to die in a torrent of fire, Caprica Six still made arrangements to put him in a home where he'd be more comfortable. And in general her character was much most vulnerable and compassionate, especially post-New Caprica, but Head-Baltar was cold and calculating, just like Head-Six was. Neither head character was a realistic version of the actual person.
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: We find that, even though she knew that his father was going to die in a torrent of fire, Caprica Six still made arrangements to put him in a home where he'd be more comfortable.
Maybe. On the other hand, this does seem to be an early turning point in her and Baltar's relationship. She may have decided that it was the best way to salvage her access to Baltar after alienating him by walking in on his family situation.
Yes, there's a chance that she was conflicted about what she was doing prior to the fall of Caprica, but don't forget that she did kill a baby with her bare hands not long before the attack. My take on the character is that most of the conflicting emotions came about after the mission was over and she had time to really stop and think about what she did.
Posts: 2437 | Registered: Apr 2005
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One might argue that the baby was a mercy killing, though. By breaking his neck, she saved him from suffering through the nuclear holocaust to come.
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I think perhaps the Head-Baltar and the Head-Six are snapshots of the personality interacting with memory. Baltar's memory of what Six did and his feelings for her, combined with her anti-human personality. and Six's guilt about her actions, combined with Baltar's cold, calculating nature.
They probably were all conflicted. They were created to end the war, as a measure of peace. Cavil not only betrayed his makers, but probably filled all of the cylons heads with nonsense about how evil the humans were. Because the Final Five tried to make many different personalities, we got a spectrum of people, some more like Cavil, and some more like Daniel (likely the opposite of Cavil AND the Abel to his Cain)
So she helped the father because she felt it was right, and understood his personality. And she killed the baby because it was annoying her and Cavil had fed her a pack of lies about how humans are filthy. It's been so long...do we have an order on those? Maybe the baby killing happened before the act of kindness?
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Caprica Six's reason for killing the baby was and supposed to be ambiguous... was it a mercy killing? Was it an accident (small neck, strong Cylon arms)? Was it malicious?
My guess, from her start at the crack of the neck and look of her face while she was walking away that it was either accidental or a mercy killing. But that's just me. It was left vague on purpose.
Posts: 4953 | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Mocke: It's been so long...do we have an order on those? Maybe the baby killing happened before the act of kindness?
The baby killing happened right before fall of the colonies. Helping Baltar dad would have have happened a couple of years prior to that.
As I look back at that scene, the baby killing was very disturbing to say the least, but the impact for was lessened by Caprica's face as she walked away. You could see that complete sadness? remorse? in her face as she walked away. I would chaulk it up to mercy killing, but she did kill the child intentionally. A truly despicable act, even in pity. Also completely unnessary. Great thing about nuclear holocast, if you are in the blast radius, getting vaporized really doesn't hurt at all.
Of course, having never been killed in a nuclear explosion my self personally....I probably couldn't give you an expert opinion on that one.
Posts: 263 | Registered: Nov 2005
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OOOOORRRRRR...she killed the child as part of her hatred of Humanity, and while walking away they wanted to show us that she almost regretted the fact that she/they were about to kill us all.
Posts: 4953 | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: There's still the movie. And Caprica.
Yeah, I know. I'm sooo looking forward to watching Eric Stoltz. I'm still going to miss watching the BSG regulars in the series.
Yeah... and the tv-movie, "The Plan", and "Caprica" are both set in the past. This episode is the end! Posts: 4953 | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Telperion the Silver: OOOOORRRRRR...she killed the child as part of her hatred of Humanity, and while walking away they wanted to show us that she almost regretted the fact that she/they were about to kill us all.
I'm also willing to give her the benefit of the doubt because I don't think Moore had all this planned out when he did the miniseries. Six's character has arguably come a long, long way from the role she played in the miniseries, and I'm not going to hold that stuff too harshly against her, because I'd be willing to bet that some of it would have been softened if Moore could have seen where the character would go. Either that or the contrast was intentional to show how far she's really come, but her act of kindness with Baltar's father would seem to be in pretty stark contrast with the figure she plays in the miniseries. I think it was almost a very subtle retcon to show a different side to her.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Telperion the Silver: OOOOORRRRRR...she killed the child as part of her hatred of Humanity, and while walking away they wanted to show us that she almost regretted the fact that she/they were about to kill us all.
I'm also willing to give her the benefit of the doubt because I don't think Moore had all this planned out when he did the miniseries. Six's character has arguably come a long, long way from the role she played in the miniseries, and I'm not going to hold that stuff too harshly against her, because I'd be willing to bet that some of it would have been softened if Moore could have seen where the character would go. Either that or the contrast was intentional to show how far she's really come, but her act of kindness with Baltar's father would seem to be in pretty stark contrast with the figure she plays in the miniseries. I think it was almost a very subtle retcon to show a different side to her.
I argue that RM had it planned out enough. The Cylons, while hyper advanced cybernetic organisms, are still child-like in their worldview thinking.
The Six that would become Caprica Six became who she did by three forces: her love affair with Baltar, direct responsibility for killing 50 billion people, and Head-Baltar.
Her love of Baltar would come to "warp" her programing to be more empathetic with Humanity. For her efforts to bring the genocide of Mankind she became a War Hero of the Cylon, resulting in experiancing an individuality that the Cylons did not normally give to each other, nor expect from each other. *
Add the third force, her own personal Head-Being in the shape of Baltar... well... only then and now do we have the person we know as Caprica Six. Not a monster like she was... but a person... a sympathetic person.
Caprica Six was like any other Six before her journey. She was a hard-core killer who fell in love with the enemy. Still didn't stop her from her mission, but it did lead to doubts that would eventually bloom (with the help of Head-Baltar) into the alliance with Boomer...resulting in the two of them convincing the Cylon Consensus to realize the mistake they made in killing Humanity.
Add the failed New Caprica experiment, the threesome with Baltar and #3, her siding with Athena and helping them capture Hera (and get back to Baltar), in the brig for a year, falling in love with Tigh, baby, death of baby, now by herself with no one...
Who will come for her? Baltar of course! The cycle is complete.
* Hell, the Cylons didn't even have names for each other till after that incident...they had to result to calling her Caprica for lack of anything else. Remember when D'anna and Gina were planning on capturing Hera? Gina hated that Hera had a (human) name...and suggested to D'anna they call her 13 instead. It was after the influence of Caprica and Boomer that the Cylons started giving themselves names (or adopting the names they divised while sneaking in Colonial society: Doral, Simon, Leoben, Gina, Natalie, Sonya, Cavil, etc). Of course we have found out that at lease Number One had a name besides the one he gave himself, John...and that Number Seven was called Daneil. I wonder if the other Models knew they had original names...
[ March 20, 2009, 06:44 AM: Message edited by: Telperion the Silver ]
Posts: 4953 | Registered: Jan 2004
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Very disappointed finale. RDM really was making it all up as he went along - and so when he found himself in a corner, instead of trying to resolve matters, he just gave up. Everyone who actually cared about the mythology of this show is left a fool. Every minute talking about it turns out to have been a waste...
Posts: 64 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Michiel: Very disappointed finale. RDM really was making it all up as he went along - and so when he found himself in a corner, instead of trying to resolve matters, he just gave up. Everyone who actually cared about the mythology of this show is left a fool. Every minute talking about it turns out to have been a waste...
I'm sure there will be a lot of people who think this way about the finale but to me the show fulfilled all of it's major themes since it began, and obviously the emphasis is on fate and one's decision to follow their destiny, their desire to know what their destiny is. BSG is very much like Oedipus in that respect.
Anyways I think it's clear that though they obviously made up a lot as they went on, Moore had some idea that the characters always had a destiny, were always following God's plan. And far from feeling their explanation involving God and angels, etc. was a cop out, I view it as fulfillment of those themes and I am incredibly impressed that they had the balls to see it through.
Basically I thought it was astounding and I think it fairly well cemented Battlestar Galactica as one of the pinnacles of human artistic achievement.
Posts: 326 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Michiel: Very disappointed finale. RDM really was making it all up as he went along - and so when he found himself in a corner, instead of trying to resolve matters, he just gave up. Everyone who actually cared about the mythology of this show is left a fool. Every minute talking about it turns out to have been a waste...
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Oh and mad props to myself and anyone else with me who thought they hadn't yet made it to "our" Earth but would find themselves there before the end.
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Yeah, I have to give you props on that one, although I called them being our ancestors back in season 1. Posts: 1569 | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by neo-dragon: Yeah, I have to give you props on that one, although I called them being our ancestors back in season 1.
Nice work, I guess I was late to that bandwagon. Definitely cool that Hera was the mitochondrial eve, presumably at least Baltar and Six had a kid too.
Posts: 326 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged: Boomer must die now, hopefully at the hands of Athena. Usually I don't advocate 8 on 8 violence but she went way to far.
I totally called that
I'm satisfied with the ending as well
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Wow, that was great. It didn't tie up every loose end, but I think it wrapped up everything that needed to be. I had pretty high expectations for the finale, and I think they were more or less met.
And yes, kudos to all those who kept insisting that the nuked Earth they found halfway through the season couldn't have been the real Earth.
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Complaints? Maybe, but I think I'd have to watch the whole thing start to finish to come up with them. As of now though, I'm perfectly happy with the conclusion, with the explanations that we got, and the decisions they made. The twists were mildly predictable but still fulfilling in the end.
I am content. I am sad that it's over. I think it'll be a long time before we get something like this again.
By the way, I love that after it was over, the first thing that played here was a commercial for the US Navy touting unmanned drones of varying kinds. Nice touch. Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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It didn't wrap up everything, and it even introduced some strange things (well, at least one...) but it was great. Posts: 4519 | Registered: Sep 2003
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"They stuck the landing" is a really good way to sum up the finale. I've always been comfortable with ambiguity in my media -- I like it, even. So this hit the right notes, for me. I'm even okay with all of the god stuff, I stopped secretly hoping the mythology would all turn out to be totally false.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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As an Atheist, I must say that I'm upset that the whole series was really and truly given up to a religious/supernatural motive and cause.
It always leaves a bad taste in my mouth when the concept of Determinism is thrown into a blender with religion to create that bastardized smoothie called "Fate".
The entire point behind any story is for the audience to determine and understand what and why things are happening. The "Greater purpose" thing is painfully cliche, and not really even an ending as, at it's base, it leaves more questions than answers. It's just that the subject is SO cliche that we're USED to the questions that are left and so we, for some reason, allow it to serve as an ending.
It's like a dead end train of thought in your own head. Whenever some subject leads you to it, you know from experience that it isn't going to go any further and you concede the point until more information becomes available. That's what the "Greater Power" ending is: giving up. The very definition of a cop-out.
Posts: 636 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:MR: I understand the network’s needs, but I wish we’d seen it all at once. That first hour really works best as part of a whole.
RDM: Well, that’s the thing. I argued very long and hard against doing that. It was not written that way. In fact, when I wrote the script, it was not even written as acts [i.e. Act 1, Act 2, Act 3]. I wrote the script as a two-hour movie and it was meant to be seen that way. But it was one of those things where it was like, “Well, they’re giving you the extra money…”
MR: "So just shut up."
RDM: Just shut up at a certain point and move on. They wanted, for their own scheduling purposes, they felt that people were just not going to commit to tuning in at 8 p.m. for a show they were used to seeing later, nobody watches a three-hour movie, everybody watches a two-hour movie, blah blah blah. Episode 21 [“Daybreak, Part 1”], it’s not an episode. It’s a completely unsatisfying experience. I know that, because it was never intended to be [on its own].
MR: It’s just the first act of a play.
RDM: It’s the first act of a play. It doesn’t make any sense, it doesn’t have a coherent arc to it. It’s just a chunk that’s been broken off. I did manage to get them to agree to show all three hours this Friday. My hope is that some people will watch all three or at least they’ll watch them all together. It’ll live forever on DVD and they’ll watch it that way, and that’s the way it was always intended to be seen.
I guess I can live with the first part broken apart from the rest as long as we got what we got in the second part. Posts: 4519 | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by sylvrdragon: As an Atheist, I must say that I'm upset that the whole series was really and truly given up to a religious/supernatural motive and cause.
I'm an atheist too. But really, they were going there from the start. What other explanation could they have given for "all of this has happened before and will happen again," and everything that came along with that, that wouldn't have been totally lame?
quote:The entire point behind any story is for the audience to determine and understand what and why things are happening.
This is not true. There doesn't have to be a clearly defined One True Explanation for something to be good.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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I suppose you're right that it was headed for a supernatural cause from the start... I just wish they had done something a bit more original. Maybe I'm just biased against the term "God". I probably could have dealt with some sort of original or at least modernized Mythology.
I seem to have an inhibition in my suspension of disbelief, and it starts at "God".
Posts: 636 | Registered: Apr 2002
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The accidental nuking of the Colony was my only low moment. I'm pretending it didn't happen, because it makes the events surrounding the ceasefire and the Final Five merging minds completely irrelevant — the nuking would have broken the truce, anyway.
Everything else came together perfectly for me.
Posts: 1539 | Registered: Jul 2004
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What I was hoping would happen was that Galactica would jump away, and the spatial distortion from the jump would rip through the Colony, knocking it out of its orbit, and it would fall into the black hole. I think visually it would have been a lot cooler, too. Oh well.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Apparently RDM wanted it to fall into the black hole too. From BryanP's link:
quote:Are we to assume that there are a lot of pissed-off Cavils out there still, or ...there’s no definitive answer, or they were destroyed?
RDM: Well, the final final [cut] came out a little less clear on that level than I certainly intended. It’s one of those things we didn’t quite see through all the way to the end. It was scripted and the idea was, that when Racetrack bumps [the button on the controls], hits the nukes, the nukes come in, smack into the Colony, takes the Colony out of the stream that was swirling around the singularity and it fell in and was destroyed and torn apart. I think as we went through the show and kept pulling out [moments for] time and we kept cutting frames and doing this and that, one of the things that became less apparent was that the Colony was doomed.
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