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crap. I just realized Locke mentions Jacob to Richard in the 1950s, which would seem to preclude Horace's son from being him. BUT, it's not exactly so cut and dry. If Jacob resides in the cabin, and Horace builds the cabin, then where was Jacob located before the cabin was built?
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I'm just going to quote my boyfriend on this instead of attempting to retype. This is just in addition to the Egyptian statue stuff:
quote:I'm reading this Lost thing, they think the statue was Horus the Egyptian god b/c a) there's a guy named Horace and b) "Horus' main rival was a god named Seth. In The Bible, Seth is the father of Enos. And Enos was the pseudonym used by Miles.
As to the deal about going off to the mainland to have babies, I honestly don't think it's a big problem. I think it's more a matter of, okay, we don't have the medical know-how here to handle delivery should anything go wrong, so it's better to send expecting mothers to where there are actual obstetricians available as opposed to doctors in other fields. So, the better doctor thing you mention, Strider, I'm with you on that.
I did find it extremely interesting that the second trimester curse didn't seem to be in effect. She wouldn't have made it that far along if it had been. If your theory about Ben messing things up is true, that'd be really cool. Hmm...
Have I mentioned how amazing it is that you remember all these really obscure details, like birth dates and ages? I never can recall the exact ones.
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I usually remember these things in generalities, and then I might go to Lostpedia to get an exact date or confirmation on something. but thanks!
Oh, i thought of one other thing as well. Maybe part of the truce is that Dharma people can't give birth on the Island. Maybe the Natives have some reason for not wanting any children born on the Island?
posted
Yeah, it does more resemble Horus, though that would be quite a connection if it was Tawaret!
Now that you mention the Truce, it brings back some questions. How'd they strike it? Why do the Dharma folks even bother with the barrier? Why were Amy and hubby out there if they knew the Hostiles could happen upon them? Why would the Hostiles provoke in that particular fashion? What did Richard plan to do with the body of her hubby (have you picked up on the fact I can't remember his name?)? Did he want it just to show that justice was dealt out (even though the hubby was technically killed before the two Hostiles were)? Did they bury the bodies purely to hide the fact they were killed or because it also has to do with the Truce? (I lean more toward the hiding idea.)
There was one more, but it just jumped out of my brain. Ah well, I'm sure the thread will go on without it. Posts: 691 | Registered: Nov 2008
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Why did the Hostiles shoot Paul in the first place, and Why wasn't explaining that to Richard enough of a reason not to hand over Paul's body? Put another way, why didn't they explain the fact that those two Hostiles broke the truce first to Richard as an excuse for not handing over the body?"
What kind of code do the Natives live by that they need justice for the deaths of murderers?
**Just like to point out, since no one's mentioned it so far, that we haven't SEEN Daniel at all in 1977! We've seen Miles, Sawyer, Juliette, and Jin. That's it. Where's Farraday gone? Kidnapped baby Charlotte and displaced her in time? Gone crazy? Died?
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It should be noted that we know Widmore and Ben fight over control of the Others/Hostiles. That would mean that it is like that at the time of the Truce, Widmore must either already by their leader or is soon to be their leader.
Given that and Widmore's aggressive character, we could speculate that Widmore is pushing to destroy Dharma and that Richard is trying to figure a way to keep the truce. (Hence he needs something to satisfy his people for the murder.)
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quote:**Just like to point out, since no one's mentioned it so far, that we haven't SEEN Daniel at all in 1977! We've seen Miles, Sawyer, Juliette, and Jin. That's it. Where's Farraday gone? Kidnapped baby Charlotte and displaced her in time? Gone crazy? Died?
I'm still sticking to my theory that Daniel is working (maybe at the Hatch) to figure out how to time travel back to their normal time. I think he's got a plan to get them all back.
After all, he's smart and he must've figured out over three years that none of them were still on the island in the future, meaning they all end up either (1) getting killed, (2) leaving the island, or (3) returning to their own time. And (2) seems very unlikely, since older Daniel would then probably want to go find younger Daniel or his mother or Charlotte - which presumably does not happen. So they are mostly facing a choice of either death or figuring out how to time travel.
At the least, we know Daniel's there somewhere on the island working for Dharma at some point in the 70's because he was shown in Dharma time in the first episode of this season.
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quote:Why did the Hostiles shoot Paul in the first place, and Why wasn't explaining that to Richard enough of a reason not to hand over Paul's body? Put another way, why didn't they explain the fact that those two Hostiles broke the truce first to Richard as an excuse for not handing over the body?"
or maybe by having their little picnic outside the perimeter of the fence that was already breaking the truce. It seems an out of proportion response to stepping outside of bounds, but we don't exactly know the nature of the truce and i suspect by being where they were, Paul and Amy broke it.
I agree with Tres's speculations on Daniel. We already discussed the incident in relation to this right? Am I remembered correctly that we speculated that Daniel is involved in causing the incident to occur as part of the attempt(possibly successful) to get them back to their proper time?
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quote:**Just like to point out, since no one's mentioned it so far, that we haven't SEEN Daniel at all in 1977!
It took me a minute to get the significance of that. At first I was thinking, "Yeah, we've seen him in the middle of the Dharma people." Then I realized that '77 was the three years later. *sheepish grin* You're right, we haven't seen him during that later year.
Tresopax, your mention of Widmore, Ben and the Others just jogged my memory. When Ben is befriended by the Others, what does he do? He triggers the gas on the Island and wipes out Dharma. Brilliant.
quote:m I remembered correctly that we speculated that Daniel is involved in causing the incident to occur as part of the attempt(possibly successful) to get them back to their proper time?
It was touched upon, I believe.
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quote:**Just like to point out, since no one's mentioned it so far, that we haven't SEEN Daniel at all in 1977!
It took me a minute to get the significance of that. At first I was thinking, "Yeah, we've seen him in the middle of the Dharma people." Then I realized that '77 was the three years later. *sheepish grin* You're right, we haven't seen him during that later year.
Not precisely true. When they stopped time hopping (1974) they were standing by the well and the Orchid station clearly had not yet been constructed. But in the season premier, we did see Daniel in Dharma clothes in the Orchid station while it was under construction. So even though we didn't see Daniel in last nights episode we have seen him working with e thDharma initiative at a time that might not have been 1977 but was definitely later than 1974.
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Just thought it was interesting that they pointedly didn't show him at all in the later years, in this particular episode. Why would they leave him out?
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quote:**Just like to point out, since no one's mentioned it so far, that we haven't SEEN Daniel at all in 1977!
It took me a minute to get the significance of that. At first I was thinking, "Yeah, we've seen him in the middle of the Dharma people." Then I realized that '77 was the three years later. *sheepish grin* You're right, we haven't seen him during that later year.
Not precisely true. When they stopped time hopping (1974) they were standing by the well and the Orchid station clearly had not yet been constructed. But in the season premier, we did see Daniel in Dharma clothes in the Orchid station while it was under construction. So even though we didn't see Daniel in last nights episode we have seen him working with e thDharma initiative at a time that might not have been 1977 but was definitely later than 1974.
We did see him last night. They went back and found him staring at the ground where Charlotte's body had been. Then, he was at the table when Jin asked about the flashes stopping. Daniel said they had (he kept repeating himself), and then Charlotte trotted by in all her four-year-old glory.
When I don't believe we saw him (would have to rewatch) is in all the "Three Years Later" scenes. It's like Leonide said.
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Yeah, Daniel was noticbly absent in the 1977 scenes.
Did he get on the sub, leaving the island and creating causality loops in history for the last 32 years? Who is he now?
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I think Rabbit's assessment that the time he is shown at the Orchid station is definitely after '74. Perhaps they're just yanking the collective chain here by noticeably leaving him out of those scenes. They want us asking these questions...and we have given in and done so.
Edit: I love getting on here after an episode. Even when it doesn't seem to be so spectacular, all these questions come up that I wouldn't have considered without stimulation!
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Yeah, I like posting unlikely questions as well as valid ones. I think what draws me to Lost is the questions, not so much the answers.
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In fact the answers, by-and-large, seem to be slightly disappointing. Maybe the best thing about the show is the possiblity of awesome, not the actuality of it. Posts: 3516 | Registered: Sep 2002
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quote:We did see him last night. They went back and found him staring at the ground where Charlotte's body had been. Then, he was at the table when Jin asked about the flashes stopping. Daniel said they had (he kept repeating himself), and then Charlotte trotted by in all her four-year-old glory.
When I don't believe we saw him (would have to rewatch) is in all the "Three Years Later" scenes. It's like Leonide said.
I meant we didn't see him in the 1977 segments of last nights show -- we did however see him in the season opener working for the Dharma initiative at a point that was definitely later than 1974. Whether or not that scene was as late as 1977 is certainly up for question but it was unquestionably more than 2 weeks after last nights 1974 scenes and he was definitely working with Dharma at that point.
Unless Daniel leaves the island and then returns, the segment in the season opener definitely rules out the possibility that he left on the sub very shortly after they stopped time hopping and landed in 1974.
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quote:Originally posted by Leonide: In fact the answers, by-and-large, seem to be slightly disappointing. Maybe the best thing about the show is the possiblity of awesome, not the actuality of it.
J.J. Abhrams has a TED talk about the nature of mystery. If any of you think ALL the questions will be answered come the end of this series, you're deluding yourselves. I kind of prefer it that way too. Leave us some mystery to talk about years from now!
I'm going to side with Tres and Rabbit on this Faraday issue. I'm guessing the reason we don't see him in 1977 is that he's on another part of the Island, possibly at the Hatch, trying to figure out a way to get the Losties back to their proper time. I mean, the 1977 stuff takes place over what, the course of a day?
quote:Tresopax, your mention of Widmore, Ben and the Others just jogged my memory. When Ben is befriended by the Others, what does he do? He triggers the gas on the Island and wipes out Dharma. Brilliant.
Trac, this is true, but this happens approx 10-15 years after he first meets Richard. And I think his hatred for his father made it much easier to do what he did. An interesting bit is that when Ben comes across Horace after the Purge, he closes Horace's eyes, giving him a level of respect that he doesn't show to any of the other Dharma people.
quote:I mean, the 1977 stuff takes place over what, the course of a day?
And night. I'm sure it'll turn out to be meaningless, but it was obviously a conscious decision to not show him and I'm just wondering why. Do they expect that we'll have forgotten about seeing Daniel in the Orchid?
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no, you're right, i'm sure they deliberately didn't put him in the 1977 scenes. And not that you were implying this, but I just don't think we should jump to any conclusions about him time jumping off the Island just because we didn't see him for that day. I think it's a much more practical(yet still interesting) reason.
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posted
I've been following this discussion from the beginning and feel I never have anything to add since y'all are clearly anyalyzing the show more than I would be capable of doing on my own.
However, my question is, has it been clearly stated that the truce between the Dharma people and the hostiles was that neither side would kill? Perhaps by the terms of the truce the hostiles were within their rights to kill anyone on their turf?
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posted
As an interesting note, the Egyption God Horus (pronounced much like Horace) is associated with fertility and sometimes resurrection. He is also often depicted carrying and ahnk. He warred for 80 years with his brother Set(h) (who often symbolizes chaos) for the kingship of Egypt. He is often represented by symbolically with an eye and a falcon (both of which are visible in the hieroglyphics that were visable on the temple. I think
Horus is a pretty good bet for the identity Egyptian looking statue and there are lots of interesting parallels in between Lost and both authentic Egyptology and modern myths about Horus. There are a number of websites comparing Horus and Jesus but it looks like their facts on Horus are pretty mixed up.
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Also, I wonder if there is more significance to the ankh Amy removed from her husband's (Paul's) body. It is the Egyptian symbol for eternal life and was being carried by the Egyptian statue. I wonder if Paul wearing the ankh in some way violated the truce agreement hence provoking the attack. That might also explain why Amy took it off his body secretly before allow Richard to take the body.
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posted
Here's a thought. Horace is represented by a falcon, and birds only have four toes. Although, it looks like that statue of Tawaret also only has four toes, so that doesn't really help narrow things down.
quote:Well, we know that Ben and Locke were both born off Island. For Ben we know both of his parents. Emily is his mom who dies during childbirth and Roger is his dad who he ends up coming to the Island with Ben as a boy at Horace's invitation. Locke's mom is also named Emily, and I'm not sure if we're supposed to assume Cooper is Locke's biological father or if that was all one big scam or not. Both Ben and Locke were born in the 6th or 7th month of pregnancy, the difference being that Locke's mom lived.
What if it turned out that Ben and John were brothers (or rather half brothers)? John's mother (Emily) was only a teenager when John was born, that would have put her in her mid 20's when Ben was born. So its definitely possible that the two Emilys could be the same person.
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posted
I've been thinking that for awhile, especially with the Bible-heavy brother references on the show, and the fact that they are the two always most at odds. I think I mentioned the Cain and Abel connection, Strider brought up Esau and Jacob -- I think there's a lot to be said for them possibly being brothers. Don't forget Ben reading the page in Ulysses where they talk about a man killing his brother, but they couldn't prove he did it!
edit: Ooh, and Isaac and Ishmael, who were half-brothers!
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quote:Originally posted by Strider: if whatever affects all the pregnant women is around in the 70s, it's vastly different from what Juliet is brought to the Island for and what we're led to believe is happening in the 2000s.
Were all the people that Juliet was brought to help Others (Natives or Hostiles who wiped out the Dharma initiative)? Do we know whether other women who came to the island have had the same problem giving birth to children conceived there? I know that Juliet was concerned about Sun, but I'm just can't recall if she had the opportunity to work with anyone else who wasn't an Other.
Of course there's still that submarine whisking the Dharma women away to give birth off-island, which doesn't seem necessary if the problem only affects the Others. Unless the Others (Natives, Hostiles) lay claim to children born on the island. But they apparently wanted Walt, and he wasn't born there.
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quote:Also, I wonder if there is more significance to the ankh Amy removed from her husband's (Paul's) body. It is the Egyptian symbol for eternal life and was being carried by the Egyptian statue. I wonder if Paul wearing the ankh in some way violated the truce agreement hence provoking the attack. That might also explain why Amy took it off his body secretly before allow Richard to take the body.
Perhaps her possession of the ankh allows her to successfully have a child on the island when nobody else can....
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posted
Wow, missed a lot over the weekend! The ankh and a possible connection with surviving the pregnancy and giving birth!! Oooo...
The fact that they make it a point to mention Dharma women going off Island to give birth probably means there's something to it, even though I'd like to believe there's no logical conclusion (to those 'living' the show as opposed to watching it). The simple fact the writers included that fact probably means there is some connection there. Argh.
Rerun this week?
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quote:Except that they mentioned that she missed the submarine to go to the mainland to have the baby, meaning the problem does exist and that this baby has somehow defied the particular "rules" of the island. Which actually makes the baby all the more special.
I just thought I'd add a small correction. They didn't say Amy had missed the submarine. They said she was supposed to be on the submarine on Tuesday which could easily have been the coming Tuesday and not the preceding Tuesday.
I'd also note that either way, she wasn't supposed to be taken back to the mainland until roughly 2 weeks before her due date so they clearly aren't experiencing the sort of complications Juliette has observed on the future island. (Which I believe others have noted)
Its entirely possible that the Dharma initiative sends women back to the mainland to deliver babies solely because they don't have full medical facilities on the island. It wouldn't make sense for Dharma to have complete facilities to deal with possible complications for mother and baby, or even a full time OB/Gyn, unless they had dozens of pregnant women on the island. Given the relatively small size of the Dharma community, it would make sense for them to have only a basic medical staff to send people to the mainland for all but emergency problems or routine treatment. Its entirely possible that this was only mentioned to explain why Juliette was called in to do the cesarean. Of course there are any number of other possibilities including those that have been previously mentioned.
What I really don't get is why they would wait until 2 weeks before delivery to put women on a submarine back to the mainland. Back in the 70s, before ultrasound, due dates weren't that accurate and submarines weren't that fast. A woman within two weeks of her due date should have been expected to deliver at any time. It seems like it would have been extremely risky to put a woman within two weeks of delivery on a Submarine, likely for several days. We worry about women that close to delivery getting on airplanes for several hours.
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: What I really don't get is why they would wait until 2 weeks before delivery to put women on a submarine back to the mainland. Back in the 70s, before ultrasound, due dates weren't that accurate and submarines weren't that fast. A woman within two weeks of her due date should have been expected to deliver at any time. It seems like it would have been extremely risky to put a woman within two weeks of delivery on a Submarine, likely for several days. We worry about women that close to delivery getting on airplanes for several hours.
That is an excellent point. Bet they didn't think that through so well.
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quote:He says that pregnant women usually go back to the mainland to deliver but doesn't say why. So I don't know that we should assume it's because women die on the island. What's more, the calamity that affects the pregnant women on the Island affects by killing them before their third trimester, taking effect some time in the second trimester. Amy's baby was born only about two weeks early which would mean if whatever affects all the pregnant women is around in the 70s, it's vastly different from what Juliet is brought to the Island for and what we're led to believe is happening in the 2000s. I think it'd be safer to assume there's a different reason for them to travel back to the mainland, like maybe better doctors? Though I guess that just begs the question, why don't they have any competent doctors? And why would they send women 9 months pregnant out on submarines?
quote:Maybe part of the truce is that Dharma people can't give birth on the Island. Maybe the Natives have some reason for not wanting any children born on the Island?
quote:Well, we know that Ben and Locke were both born off Island. For Ben we know both of his parents. Emily is his mom who dies during childbirth and Roger is his dad who he ends up coming to the Island with Ben as a boy at Horace's invitation. Locke's mom is also named Emily, and I'm not sure if we're supposed to assume Cooper is Locke's biological father or if that was all one big scam or not. Both Ben and Locke were born in the 6th or 7th month of pregnancy, the difference being that Locke's mom lived.
What if it turned out that Ben and John were brothers (or rather half brothers)? John's mother (Emily) was only a teenager when John was born, that would have put her in her mid 20's when Ben was born. So its definitely possible that the two Emilys could be the same person.
Ben's mother died birthing him, and John's mother was alive long after this. She helped Anthony Cooper scam John out of his kidney.
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quote:Ben's mother died birthing him, and John's mother was alive long after this. She helped Anthony Cooper scam John out of his kidney.
Wasn't it suggested that the woman involved in the scam was someone hired by Cooper and not actually John's mother?
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quote:Ben's mother died birthing him, and John's mother was alive long after this. She helped Anthony Cooper scam John out of his kidney.
Wasn't it suggested that the woman involved in the scam was someone hired by Cooper and not actually John's mother?
no, it was his real mom. Though she ends up confessing to being part of the scam for money.
Are you sure about that? I'm almost certain I remember her confessing that she wasn't actually his mother she had just been paid to play the part. If she is really his mother, it does raise the question of why John was so obsessed with connecting with his father and yet had so little interest in his mother.
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posted
can't answer that for you, but it's definitely his mom. Here's Lostpedia's description of the episode where we meet her:
quote:About ten years before the crash, a younger Locke works in a discount superstore. He demonstrates the children's game Mouse Trap to a boy, saying it was his favorite game and that he used to play it with his "brother." A mysterious older woman appears to be watching him in the store. When Locke approaches her, she asks him where the footballs are.
Later Locke sees her in the parking lot. He starts to chase her and is knocked over by a car. Locke gets back up, catches her, and confronts her. She reveals that she is his birth mother, Emily Annabeth Locke. John inquires about his natural father, but she tells him that he has no father, and that he was "immaculately conceived" (a common misuse of the term).
Locke hires a private investigator, Frainey, to find information on his father and mother. The investigators tell him that his mother has been committed in the past because she had schizophrenia. She was admitted several times to the Santa Rosa Mental Health Institute. When Locke asks about his father, Frainey is hesitant. He says these things are not meant to be and gives Locke a choice to find his father or not. Locke says he wants to meet his father, and the private investigator gives him the address of his father, Anthony Cooper.
Locke goes to his father's affluent home, where he is admitted and welcomed. Cooper claims that he did not know he had a son because Emily told him she was not going to have a baby. Cooper claims he found out about Locke a year later, when Emily asked him for more money.
Cooper appears to take Locke under his wing, taking him hunting several times. Arriving early one day, Locke sees that his father is on dialysis. Cooper mentions that he will need a kidney transplant, but is pessimistic about his chances on the waiting list. Locke volunteers to give his father one of his kidneys. Just before the kidney transplant, Locke says that "this was meant to be", and Cooper tells his son that he will see him after the operation.
After the transplant, Locke wakes up in the hospital to find that his father has gone home for private care. His mother appears and reveals that his father concocted a scheme to convince Locke to give up his kidney. Locke pulls himself out of the hospital bed, and drives to his father's home, where the once-friendly guard is not allowed to let him inside. Locke drives away at the guard's pained insistence, and screams at the betrayal.
posted
Just because she doesn't admit to lying to Locke doesn't mean she *is* his legitimate mother.
Also, the PI could've been a plant made to make John think that woman was his mother. I enjoy the Ben/Locke as brothers theory too much to drop it just because a character said something and it hasn't been immediately contradicted! Posts: 3516 | Registered: Sep 2002
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regardless of whether you want to believe the woman, or the PI, my point is that no one in the episode admitted or confessed to lying about her being Locke's mother. But far be it for me to keep you from your conspiracy theory. Posts: 8741 | Registered: Apr 2001
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Your point was well-taken. I'm just used to this show by now and it seems to me that it's a wiser course of action to assume that you can't assume anything about the "facts" of this show. That concept, at this point, is almost nonexistent. Posts: 3516 | Registered: Sep 2002
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To be fair Strider, there is far more reason to believe that the woman who presented herself as Locke's mother was lying about it than any of the things you presented. Seriously, everything else she told Locke was a lie. The entire thing was a setup to get Locke to give Cooper a kidney. Once you know that the entire process was an elaborate scam, it seems irrational to assume that any part of it was true.
Its like with Ben. We know Ben lies about just about everything. Therefore its irrational to presume what he says is true until proven otherwise. Evidence suggest just the opposite, that we should presume anything he says is false unless its confirmed beyond suspicion by some outside source. I see anything that happened as part of the scam Cooper set up to get John's kidney in exactly the same way -- it was most likely a lie.
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quote:Sun and Jin are actually brother and sister.
The whole show takes place a long time ago in a galaxy far far away
YES! Jin IS Luke Skywalker! "Used to bulls-eye koi in fishing boat back home - they not much bigger than two meters!"
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