Sayid and Ben I thought there was a nice lead up to Sayid shooting Ben during the episode by showing Sayid's past and his relationship to Ben. The only thing is, since I'm in the whatever happened, happened camp, this new twist isn't all that suspenseful for me. Obviously Ben can't be dead...because he's not dead in the future. I think either Jack has to save him...again(or for the first time depending on whose perspective you take) or like Tres says, he's healed by the Island ala how Locke was healed in the Dharma death pit.
What it does do is put a whole new twist on Ben and Sayid's relationship. The whole time Ben has been working with Sayid, Ben has known this man tried to kill him when he was a boy. This makes me question whether the guy who killed Nadia(Sayid's wife) was really from Widmore, or whether that was Ben's doing. Ben is not a forgiving man. I think it's likely he kills Nadia to get back at Sayid, and then proceeds to corrupt Sayid's knowledge by tricking him into doing his dirty work as revenge. A revenge he should really be taking out on Ben. Talk about convoluted. I wonder what threat all those people Ben had Sayid kill actually posed. Ben even then lies about Locke's death to convince Sayid to come back and start killing people again. What a bastard.
Sayid His "torture" was hilarious. Horace seemed to be the only one of the bunch that was genuinely put off by what Sayid was saying. The rest assumed it was babble, but I think Horace is more aware.
The scene in the airport with him asking to take a later flight was hilarious as well.
The Whiskey he's drinking at the bar is the same whiskey Widmore drinks, and that Hurley, Charlie, and Desmond get drunk on on the Island.
Hurley Hurley is always great for comic relief. I loved the line about Juliet and Saywer being obvious, I think a pseudo shout out to viewers who saw this coming all season.
I miss Locke, and Desmond, and Faraday. I hope we get to see more of one or some of them next week.
Oh, btw, for anyone interested, next week's episode is called "Whatever Happened, Happened."
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You know, that bounty hunter was the second undercover "agent" that Sayid's become involved with. You'd think he'd have learned his lesson after the German girl -- or at least tempered his one-night stand policy: "You know, maybe not all the unbelievably hot women who hit on me randomly in bars and cafes are completely on the level...."
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I can't help but feel that Ben will survive. The most likely scenario that I can come up with is that Jin will come to and carry/drive Ben to the infirmary and Jack. This has the added advantage of explaining why Ben reacted the way he did when Locke told him that Jin was alive on the Island.
I'm guessing that Ben remembers being shot by Sayid back in the 1970s and that he knows the only reason he survives is because Jin gets him back to the Barracks in time. When Ben and the Oceanic 6 left the island, he was under the impression that Jin died so he knew that he couldn't let John die and bring the six back to the island, because Sayid would should him again and Jin wouldn't be there to save him this time.
However, John mentions that Jin is alive, so Ben sees it as his chance to get back to the island. So he kills Sayid, and travels back to the island.
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What, no commentary on last night's episode?
The whole Hurley/Miles thing was a fun nod to all the Lost discussion boards. And y'all were right about Ben, of course.
The comment by Richard about Ben forgetting everything was interesting. Seems like a writers' copout for the paradox they've created. I wish I remember exactly what he said-- I think it was "he won't remember any of this." Any of what? He certainly didn't lose the memory of his entire childhood. His memory of being taken to the Others for saving? Everything from being shot on?
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I thought the Hurley/Miles conversation pretty funny, too, and commented that it was totally written for viewers like my mom, who have a super hard time wrapping their heads around any sort of time travel stuff.
Yeah, Richard's comment could easily be a cop out, but you've brought up some possible issues with that - what exactly will he forget, just the convenient stuff? (like Sayid), and so on. I'd like to hear how they'd answer your questions.
What I thought more interesting was the part of Richard's comment about innocence and always being one of them.
I did like Juliet's stand on trying to help the KID Ben, though it just doesn't seem like the best idea to send him to the Others, even as a last resort. *le sigh*
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I thought the comments about "Elli and Charles" were interesting. Presumable the unnamed other was referring to Eloise Hawking and Charles Whidmore who apparently are recognized as leaders by the others. It suggests that these two were still on the island in 1977, which is interesting since Penny and Daniel seem too old to have been born post 1977.
quote:What I thought more interesting was the part of Richard's comment about innocence and always being one of them.
Which begs the question "What does it mean to be one of the others".
Still so many many unanswered questions.
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quote:Originally posted by Traceria: I thought the Hurley/Miles conversation pretty funny, too, and commented that it was totally written for viewers like my mom, who have a super hard time wrapping their heads around any sort of time travel stuff.
I found it funny and frustrating at the same time, but yes, I realize that it was written for people who unlike myself haven't been reading and watching sci-fi for their entire lives and are therefore new to the whole time travel thing.
quote:The comment by Richard about Ben forgetting everything was interesting. Seems like a writers' copout for the paradox they've created.
Exactly. Memory loss is the universal plot hole filler.
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I'm interested in the idea that it is the process involved in saving Ben's life that maybe made him crazy. Why is Richard so interested in preserving Ben's life?
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quote: I think it was "he won't remember any of this." Any of what? He certainly didn't lose the memory of his entire childhood. His memory of being taken to the Others for saving? Everything from being shot on?
Yeah, i have the same questions Uprooted. And i agree, I think it's a huge cop out to have him not remember any of this. Not only that, but i was really liking the idea that Ben was aware of all this stuff when he meets the Losties in the future. That when the plane crashes he needs a manifest not because he's shocked, but because he wants to make sure that those people are on the plane. That all the stuff he does to Sayid is part of getting back at him for trying to kill him. A really ironic part of all this is that Sayid manages to shoot Ben and then torture him before Ben actually does anything bad to Sayid!
I also started developing some interesting theories about The List that Ben uses to bring Kate, Jack, and Sawyer to him, but it hinges on him remembering all this. Who are the people that cause Ben to become what he becomes? Sayid for shooting him. Jack for refusing to operate on him. And Kate and Sawyer for bringing him to The Others. And I thought all the aweful things he does to them could be to pay them back for what they do to him. There are some holes in that theory though, not the least of which is Ben's memory of these events.
quote:Originally posted by Leonide: I'm interested in the idea that it is the process involved in saving Ben's life that maybe made him crazy. Why is Richard so interested in preserving Ben's life?
I love it...how fantastically brilliant. Though I would never call Ben crazy(at least not to his face). I think Richard is interested in Ben because Richard thinks he's special. He was shown a vision of his mother by the Island and Richard obviously places some importance.
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: I thought the comments about "Elli and Charles" were interesting. Presumable the unnamed other was referring to Eloise Hawking and Charles Whidmore who apparently are recognized as leaders by the others. It suggests that these two were still on the island in 1977, which is interesting since Penny and Daniel seem too old to have been born post 1977.
I thought the same thing. Have we brought up the possibility before of Penny and Daniel being brother and sister, and Hawking and Widmore each taking one of them when they leave the Island. Though, by the time Ben is older and can oust Widmore, Penny should be much older and know all about this Island. Same with Faraday.
I know I brought this up before in my whacked out theory of Desmond and Penny's son Charlie actually being Charles Widmore, and that get to the Island pre 50s and Widmore thus grows up on the Island and later adopts Penny(we don't know anything about her mother right?) to make sure she's safe.
Maybe if my other theory about Faraday being the "smart young man" who figures out how to find the Island is also true, then possibly Hawking also adopts Faraday, also to keep him safe and make sure he eventually gets to the Island.
We'll find out some answers if we ever see a young Penny or Faraday on the Island.
quote:Originally posted by Achilles: Ben was messed up already. A kid doesn't so blatently defy his parent to run away unless there is a problem at home.
Well, here's the thing. Ben is definitely messed up. But there's a big disconnect between wanting to get away from an abusive father and killing every man, woman and child in Dharma. What's now happened to Ben helps explain that.
Some other random thoughts:
Kate and character motivations
I'm normally not a big fan of post Island off Island Kate episodes, but I actually enjoyed this one(especially cause of the last few minutes). I liked that we learned her motivation for going back to the Island. I was originally upset when they showed us the O6 all at the Ajira flight without explaining how and why they all got there. Now it makes sense, they'll each have their own episode showing what led to them being on the plane and what they're motivations were. We've been shown Sayid and Kate. We sort of know Jack's motivations(I love how he's become the new Locke), but I'm thinking there will be one more Jack centric episode. It looks like next week were going to get Ben's story(and hopefully get to see Desmond beat the crap out of him!) That leaves us Hurley and Sun. Sun we know why she's coming, but we'll get to see what she did with her daughter.
Ben
When adult Ben wakes up in 2008 I think this is the second time all series we've seen genuine surprise on his face. The first being when he finds out Mrs. Hawking is Faraday's mother. The only other time all series he showed anything close to that was in the finale of season 2, when Desmond turned the fail safe switch in the hatch and the sky lit up. I don't think he was surprised at all, but he definitely looked really pissed.
Ben, Temple, Others
We know that the smoke monster sucked the Rousseau's team into the Temple, where they were "Otherized". They were taken over. They were enacting the will of the Island or the Smoke Monster. Whatever you want to call it...they were changed. They wanted to kill Rousseau. Ben was taken to the same place. Who gets taken there? Do all Others go there? Was Juliet taken there? Like Rabbit said, what does it mean to be one of the Others.
Richard
Also, Richard's relationship to all this is very intriguing. He's obviously hugely important, and yet he doesn't seem to be the "leader" and at the same time doesn't answer to the leaders. And he's of course ageless. I can't wait to find out his past.
Miles and Hurley
I LOVED these two going back and forth. First off, it was hilarious. Second, it just shows how in tune the creators are with the fan community to blatantly reference so much of the conversation that goes on. It felt incredibly satisfying to have them ridicule the Back to the Future theory of time travel given that's precisely the example I've used in the past to describe how NOT to think about time travel. They also more fully laid out how to think about these events for fans having problems with following along. Though I must say, i think Miles could have done a better job at explaining the theory, and I think the show purposefully didn't have him be TOO clear. Similarly to how that one question Hurley asked him about Ben not recognizing Sayid in the future stumped him. But basically, I think they put that in there to, in part, give the other side something to hold on to. So they can say, "well what about that, huh? Explain that!" Which I actually approve of. Though I guess they can squash that with the memory wipe.
Later in the episode when they leave the house and Miles says to Hurley, "ask me some more questions about time travel" I about fell out of my seat.
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quote:I'm normally not a big fan of post Island off Island Kate episodes, but I actually enjoyed this one(especially cause of the last few minutes). I liked that we learned her motivation for going back to the Island.
Agreed. I was actually just talking about this with my fellow Anti-Kate friend -- this episode actually made me sympathize with her in a way I haven't since...well, since probably the first season.
I think one of the most impressive (or bizarre) things about this show is its uncanny ability to make you switch your sympathies. For instance, when the show started, I adored Locke. I thought he was pretty much the coolest character. Then The Hatch Thing went down and new characters started popping up and he just...lost his impact. I would have never thought, five years ago, that I would currently be ambiguous about my feelings for Locke. Nor would I, even two years ago, thought that I might currently be starting to like him again!
And every time a new character has been introduced, I think "like we need more of these!" But somehow, I am drawn into their worlds, like with Daniel and Charlotte, and even the Others.
The show's done the same switcheroo with most of their leads, i.e. Jack and Kate -- in addition, it is amusing to me to consider that, a year or so ago, I scoffed at every other word that came out of Juliette's mouth and thought she was completely untrustworthy, whereas now I like her!
I'm not sure if that's indicative of my fickleness as a TV viewer, or an underlying theme within the show of representing morally ambiguous, flawed, ever-changing characters -- people who are not cut-and-dry or even slightly-snipped-and-mildly-soppy ( )...characters who do things you would never in a million years agree with, who days earlier did truly heroic things you would have been proud to commend them for.
It's something you really don't see too often on television, or in entertainment in general.
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Strider, that post was very entertaining and much appreciated. Felt the same way about a lot of that.
Much of what attracted me to the show in the beginning was Jack. I dunno why - but I love leaderly stuff. I like that he is the new Locke, as you mentioned - I just hope they develop that. I liked it when he was the main character and I hope they put him back in the center. This responsible Sawyer thing was cute for a while, but I want Jack back!
On the matter of Time Travel:
I'm cool with the whole, you go back in time and you can't change anything idea. That's fine with me. But why is it that when you go back in time, YOU have to be the bad guy? It's like, if you go back in time to prevent the Lincoln assassination - YOU end up assassinating Lincoln.
Why did it have to be that Jack, Sayid, Kate, Juliet, and Sawyer are all responsible for the way that Ben turns out?
By choosing this method of time travel, the writers seem to be making a point that it is immoral to try and change things. If you do, then you pay the price by assuming responsibility for the immorality you are trying to prevent. It's almost like God's ironic way of punishing people who try to play God. I wonder why the writers feel they need to make this point...
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I agree with everything you all have said since I posted yesterday, the highlights being a) actually enjoying and sympathizing with Kate for a change and b) all the questions about what it is to be Otherized.
Wasn't on hatrack let alone posting on this Lost thread at the time, but WAY back in the first season, I didn't like Locke. I still kind of don't for his fanaticism, but that's not where I was going. (Oh, tangents...) It was when he was eating the orange and smiled with the peel in his mouth, and I nearly stood, pointed and said, "EVIL!" it creeped me out enough. So yeah, just saying.
Someone I was talking to about the episode commented that they though Jack was being out of character, and I was curious about everyone's thoughts on that idea. Personally, I don't think he was being out of character, and here are a few (of many) reasons why:
quote:I don't know that Jack was so much OOC in this episode (though obviously you're right in that him being all "I don't care about Ben!" made the Others plot line possible) as he was just fed up with EVERYTHING. They get back to the Island, and it's a huge let down! No one apparently needs saving (at least that he cares about), no one is letting him make decisions, and when they do finally come to him with something to do, it's a crappy (in his estimation) request to save the guy who kidnapped, tortured (to a degree), manipulated and misused him, and the kicker is that the people he cared about want him to do it. And they all kind of betrayed him, too, though it's more an emotional betrayal.
posted
I thought he was being very Zen about the whole thing.
And it was obnoxious.
I agree with Armoth: I won't appreciate a moralistic ending to this show that reads something like "go with the flow man -- what's meant to happen will!" That kind of fortune-cookie approach to life sticks in my craw. Whatever my craw is.
Given the multiple references to characters on the show being representations of philosophers, I'm still holding out hope for a more pro-active message. I might not have agreed with Sayid's actions in shooting Wee Ben, but I applauded his decision to actually do something!
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quote:Originally posted by Armoth: On the matter of Time Travel:
I'm cool with the whole, you go back in time and you can't change anything idea. That's fine with me. But why is it that when you go back in time, YOU have to be the bad guy? It's like, if you go back in time to prevent the Lincoln assassination - YOU end up assassinating Lincoln.
Why did it have to be that Jack, Sayid, Kate, Juliet, and Sawyer are all responsible for the way that Ben turns out?
By choosing this method of time travel, the writers seem to be making a point that it is immoral to try and change things. If you do, then you pay the price by assuming responsibility for the immorality you are trying to prevent.
Really it's just that writer's enjoy the irony, even though it has become something of a cliche. Not being able to change the past makes logical sense, but I can't think of any logical reason why one's attempts to undo an event HAVE TO BE what causes it. One could simply fail to influence the event at all, like you try to stop Lincoln's assassination, but you go to the wrong theatre, or get there too late.
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I thought the last episode was frustratingly contrived. It relied on three people sharing the same moral stance (we have to go to extreme measures, up to and including wrecking what we've been building here for the last three years, to save a kid we all know grows up to be the spawn of Machiavelli and Stalin just because he's a child) and coming to the same bizzare conclusion (Hey, I bet the Others can fix him, assuming they don't shoot us first. Oh, and doing so may tear a rift in the treaty and put dozens more lives in danger, not to mention the question of what we'll do once we've burned our bridges, but hey, stuff happens.)
So, why do things turn out this way?... "Island juju." Well, yeah, I guess that's an explanation of sorts...
Frankly, I was holding out hope (not expectation, admittedly, but hope) that Ben would be killed. "C'mon, Sayiid! Double-tap!"
Sheesh. Isn't this like the first time in this series that Sayiid has tried to kill someone and failed in doing so?
My one thought: when Alex was killed, Ben was surprised, and said something like "They changed the rules." Something about that suggests to me he has an expectation of the way the timeline is supposed to go, but it's been changed.
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Sterling, I suspect that there is much that we don't know, and the characters do. You make a good point, but I am crossing my fingers in hoping that there is something that has to do with Daniel and his knowledge of time travel in all of this.
Some things don't make sense, but I have a feeling that something big is going to be explained soon. The Losties in 1977 are beginning to imperil their presence on the Island, possibly leading to a paradox.
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Grousing aside, I do usually enjoy Lost. I'm just keeping my fingers crossed it doesn't pull a "Twin Peaks" and peter out at the end.
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Christian Shepherd is coming with Sun and Frank - It's possible that he is bringing the 6 to him, to Locke and Ben as well. That would avoid our paradox problems.
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quote:And every time a new character has been introduced, I think "like we need more of these!" But somehow, I am drawn into their worlds, like with Daniel and Charlotte, and even the Others.
I was really disliking Charlotte this season, I was actually glad when she died. She was cooler last season.
quote:Originally posted by Armoth: Why did it have to be that Jack, Sayid, Kate, Juliet, and Sawyer are all responsible for the way that Ben turns out?
By choosing this method of time travel, the writers seem to be making a point that it is immoral to try and change things. If you do, then you pay the price by assuming responsibility for the immorality you are trying to prevent. It's almost like God's ironic way of punishing people who try to play God. I wonder why the writers feel they need to make this point...
quote:Originally posted by Leonide: I agree with Armoth: I won't appreciate a moralistic ending to this show that reads something like "go with the flow man -- what's meant to happen will!" That kind of fortune-cookie approach to life sticks in my craw. Whatever my craw is.
That's not what I'm taking away from it. First off, Kate and Saywer weren't trying to change things, they were just trying to help a kid. Though yes, they willingly gave him over to people who would "change" him. Sayid DID try to change things by shooting Ben, and without knowing it helped enact the future we already know. Same with Jack, though Jack did it through trying to not get involved.
Anyway, I would disagree with your guys' assessment(or worry) because you're only focusing on the characters whose actions led to an undesirable future, or negative consequences. What about Hurley? What about Juliet? What about Jin? He actually did something positive in all this time traveling, he saved Rousseau from following her team down into the temple. Miles? Faraday? If he ends up getting them back to their proper time, he'll be doing something positive. Sawyer left the rope in the ground giving future island inhabitants a means to find the orchid location(maybe it's him or one of the Losties that suggest to dharma where to build the station).
What's more, I kind of agreed with Kate. Though I do kind of dig this new Zen Jack, I agree that I liked it when Jack was proactive, when he didn't let things just happen. I disagree with the idea that just because the future is set, that there's no point in doing anything, because though the future is set, you don't know what you will choose to do, and so your actions still have meaning. And there are times to act, and times to accept your lack of control in a situation.
Jack learned the wrong lesson both from his first time on the Island, and from Miles' explanation of time travel. Jack's problem wasn't being pro-active, it was his need for control. He gave all action up completely, and whether it's because he just doesn't care about Ben, or because he took what Miles said literally and had no desire to help Ben because we know Ben will turn out okay, he decided not to act. It'll be interesting(and i realize i'm stretching things here) if the act he has to redeem himself for, the reason he came back to the Island(without knowing it) is the very act he just committed when he chose not to help a little boy(the first time we've ever seen Jack do something like that).
quote:Originally posted by Sterling: My one thought: when Alex was killed, Ben was surprised, and said something like "They changed the rules." Something about that suggests to me he has an expectation of the way the timeline is supposed to go, but it's been changed.
To me it just implied that this conflict between widmore and Ben was more layered, that it wasn't simply widmore wanting the island, but that there were agreed upon rules these two were abiding by. And since then we've learned that widmore used to be in a leadership position on the Island, and that they're both connected to Mrs. Hawking(Ellie). I don't think anything in the timeline was changed from those actions. Though good point about Ben being surprised, that's another time I forgot about.
I think this season is all leading up to the "the incident" in which we'll finally learn what happened with that, and that it has something to do with the Losties traveling back to their proper time.
quote:Sawyer left the rope in the ground giving future island inhabitants a means to find the orchid location(maybe it's him or one of the Losties that suggest to dharma where to build the station).
At most, this has ambiguous consequences: is finding the Orchid a desirable outcome?
quote:quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And every time a new character has been introduced, I think "like we need more of these!" But somehow, I am drawn into their worlds, like with Daniel and Charlotte, and even the Others. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was really disliking Charlotte this season, I was actually glad when she died. She was cooler last season.
Well, then, [Insert Your Character Here]. Charlotte was humanized this season, and I appreciated the attempt at making her relatable, even though I completely disagreed with How. "Requiting" Daniel's unrequited love was out-of-character. Unrequited is unrequited -- the writers don't need to make all of the couples have their "moment."
I guess it's good that, like Traceria disliking Locke, my opinions about characters are meant as a personal reflection, and not intended universally.
posted
Not sure if this has been brought up, but I think that Jack was supposed to save Ben as a child. If he had saved him in the past he never would have done the things he did as an adult, but by doing nothing he caused him to become changed into the man he was.
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that's sort of what I was getting at in my post above playing with the cause and affect of Jack's purpose on the Island. Since we do know that Ben turns out the way he does, and assuming the time line is unalterable, then Jack always refused to help Ben. So yes, maybe he was supposed to, but he didn't, and now he has to redeem himself. And thus the very thing he came back to the Island to redeem himself of, was the very first thing he did upon returning.
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I need a good pre flight 815 timeline of the island.
1954: Nuclear bomb on the island. Charles Whidmore captures Sawyer et al, then unwittingly leads them to other's camp. John Locke and group talk with Richard.
1974: Jin, Sawyer, Miles, Daniel and Juliet captured by Dharma initiative.
1977: Jack, Kate, Hurley and Sayid captured by Dharma initiative. Ben 12 years old .
Jan. 1989: Alex born on the island. Other's living in jungle.
~1994 (based on Alex's age). Other's living in Dharma compound.
2001: Desmond shipwrecks on the island.
What else can we fill in?
Do we know what year it was when the others wiped out the Dharma initiative?
Do we know how old Ben was when he came to the island?
How long was Kelvin stationed at the Swan when Desmond arrived.?
What year did Juliet come to the island?
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posted
I really wish we could believe anything Locke said. Which story is true -- the one he told Locke (that he expected him to be resurrected by the island), or the one he tells Sun (Dead is dead) or neither.
We do now have evidence to support the theory that the visions people see on the island are connected to the smoke monster.
Do you suppose Ben will obey the monster and now follow Locke?
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I wonder about the hidden room in Ben's house, the one that seems to be a back door to the temple. Was it there before the others moved in?
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quote:It'll be interesting(and i realize i'm stretching things here) if the act he has to redeem himself for, the reason he came back to the Island(without knowing it) is the very act he just committed when he chose not to help a little boy(the first time we've ever seen Jack do something like that).
Oh, I do like that thought.
quote:I guess it's good that, like Traceria disliking Locke, my opinions about characters are meant as a personal reflection, and not intended universally.
I will never look at an orange the same way again.
Rabbit, any ideas what the smoke monster/visions (of people) might mean when it comes to distinguishing between a reflection of a deceased person (Alex, that pscyhologist lady who told Juliet to go stop Daniel
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quote:I wonder about the hidden room in Ben's house, the one that seems to be a back door to the temple. Was it there before the others moved in?
I was wondering about that too. I don't think it is a back door to the temple, but it is clearly an entrance to one of the prehistoric sites (like the temple). Evidence is that the site is very ancient so it must have been there when Dharma built the houses. Do we have any clue whose house that was in 1977.
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quote:Originally posted by Tammy: I wonder about the hidden room in Ben's house, the one that seems to be a back door to the temple. Was it there before the others moved in?
Hmmm....completely random thought: What if the Temple (and similar buildings) were sort of organic, like the Wrath ships in Stargate Atlantis? Probably not. He he...
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quote:I wonder about the hidden room in Ben's house, the one that seems to be a back door to the temple. Was it there before the others moved in?
I was wondering about that too. I don't think it is a back door to the temple, but it is clearly an entrance to one of the prehistoric sites (like the temple). Evidence is that the site is very ancient so it must have been there when Dharma built the houses. Do we have any clue whose house that was in 1977.
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: Very interesting.
I need a good pre flight 815 timeline of the island.
1954: Nuclear bomb on the island. Charles Whidmore captures Sawyer et al, then unwittingly leads them to other's camp. John Locke and group talk with Richard.
1974: Jin, Sawyer, Miles, Daniel and Juliet captured by Dharma initiative.
1977: Jack, Kate, Hurley and Sayid captured by Dharma initiative. Ben 12 years old .
Jan. 1989: Alex born on the island. Other's living in jungle.
~1994 (based on Alex's age). Other's living in Dharma compound.
2001: Desmond shipwrecks on the island.
What else can we fill in?
Do we know what year it was when the others wiped out the Dharma initiative?
Do we know how old Ben was when he came to the island?
How long was Kelvin stationed at the Swan when Desmond arrived.?
I want to say that not much was revealed in this episode, but it is pretty big that we know where the Monster resides. I had suspected the Temple prior to this season. We still don't know the nature of the Monster.
Llana and Bram are not outsiders. I have wondered before if some other people were trying to return to the Island on 316. They may be these people.
I expect Ben to be dead by the end of the season. He has been substantially diminished in stature, does not have as much knowledge of the Island as Locke does, and seems to be atoning for his past. In Lost this often means that someone will die.
Edit to add: IMDB has all of this season's episode names, including all unaired episodes. Link for those interested. Minor spoilers.
I thought this would be interesting because I checked out Lost's IMDb site weeks ago, and I didn't believe that an episode would really be named "Some Like it Hoth", but I guess I was wrong. I think these episode names are probably right.
[ April 09, 2009, 06:38 PM: Message edited by: The Reader ]
Posts: 684 | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:We do now have evidence to support the theory that the visions people see on the island are connected to the smoke monster.
We didn't before? Echo and Yemi would be a prime example. But I agree that I don't think anyone can reasonably deny this anymore.
I'll second Reader's link to that timeline, it's really great. I've been going to Lostpedia forever but just found out about that timeline a few weeks ago.
I'd also tend to believe the list of episode names since I think we've already speculated that this season was leading up to the incident which I think the Losties(or at least Faraday) were involved with, and is somehow related to how they leave 1977 for their proper time...and setting up the final season which i'm guessing will at least in part deal with the impending war Widmore spoke of.
I have a lot to say this week(how is that different from any other week...i know). I think i'll post more thoughts in a separate post.
Ben is so great. So evil and yet there is a compassionate side to him. And so willing to lie in all situations that I just have no idea what to believe anymore. And yet so obviously cares for his daughter.
Where to begin. We now know that Ben was helping the Natives even before the purge happened. As the scene where he takes Roussaeu's daughter occurs in 1988, a good four years before the Purge. And we know that Ethan was already helping as well. And we know that the power struggle with Widmore had already begun at this point.
I was worried for a little bit that Penny might actually die(after the whole apologize to Desmond line), which was harrowing, but I'm glad we finally got to see Desmond beat the crap out of Ben, even though it wasn't as satisfying as I was expecting it to be since it came at a moment when Ben let his guard down after seeing Penny's child. Not even just let his guard down...he was actually lowering the gun. It was so un-Ben! But i'm assuming his guilt over Alex was a driving force in his emotional reaction, and obviously the connection to how he came to have Alex.
Ben's lies
So Ben tells Locke he expected his resurrection. And then proceeded to tell Sun he's never seen anything like this and is scared to death of it all. Which one is the truth?
When Ben told Locke he couldn't let him die because he had valuable information that he needed was it the truth? Was the next part true about the reason for needing to then kill him?
When Sun shows Ben the Dharma picture with the Losties he says he knows nothing about it. How far do we trust Ben's amnesia? We know that as a child he doesn't remember what happened to cause him to need healing. But is it just getting shot that he doesn't remember, or has he conveniently forgotten the entire time the Losties were there. I'd be really upset with this outcome. Lets say for a moment he really does have no memory of the Losties in Dharma time...so then what is it about the information Locke gives Ben about Jin being alive that sets him off. My initial assumption was that the fact of his being alive meant Ben could manipulate Sun and thus make it easier to manipulate the rest of the group. Some people were against this idea and had more intricate reasons for speculating on Ben's murderous motives and almost had me turned over to that side of things. But...if Ben doesn't remember that time, then what is it about the info that's important? Or is Ben lieing about his lack of knowledge?
Ben lies to Caesar about Locke to get Caesar to mistrust Locke. He then steals Caesar's gun and uses that gun against Caesar in a moment of crisis. So here's the question...why turn Caesar against Locke, just to kill Caesar? Just to get Locke's trust back? Or is there another reason he wanted him dead?
Charles Widmore
Why did he send Ben out to kill Rousseau? Why didn't he tell Ben about the baby? Was it really Jacob's will or his own? And if it was his own, why?
We also were given a completely practical and plausible and mundane answer for why Penny wasn't on the Island at a time period she should be alive, and how Widmore was exiled. Not very exciting, but it answered our questions. Widmore had started a family with an off Island outsider(do we think the mom is significant?) and thus Penny was on the mainland and Ben used this whole situation as a means to oust Widmore. Is there more to this? I know at one point Widmore says something about Ben tricking him off the Island.
Illana
What's in the crate? And what the heck is that riddle about? It's obviously a secret code, but who is she working for. My original thoughts were that Ben in some round about way got her hired to track down Sayid to make sure he ended up on the plane. This would almost fit in with what happened on the Island in the sense that she's obviously working for someone, but doesn't know who else is and thus has this secret code to determine who she can trust. Here's my reason for thinking it's NOT Ben that she's working for. Ben seems genuinly interested in what is in the crate at the beginning of the episode. My current guess is that she's working for Widmore and is the first wave of the the war that Widmore is planning. It would even make sense that if Sayid was killing Widmore's men that she would have been hired by Widmore to track down Sayid. Anyway...all speculation at the moment.
The Smoke Monster
You guys have brought up some of the questions i'm curious about(like whether ben will follow it's command). The scene played out about as I had expected it to. The smoke monster accessed his memories and showed them to him, and took the form of Alex. And even though it was aware of his plans to kill Locke, it apparently judged him worth of living.
We also know for certain now the smoke monster has been around a long time(due to the hieroglyphic of it and an Egyptian god), which means that the smoke monster might be as old, or older, than the wheel and the Statue.
Locke
Okay...bare with me guys, but I really do think there is something to the following theory...are you ready for it...Locke is in some very significant way related to the smoke monster. I'm not ready to go out on a limb and say Locke IS the smoke monster(in no small part due to the fact that the smoke monster has been around for thousands of years), but i think i'm on to something.
Okay...Locke is missing in the woods. Ben calls the monster and says to Sun he won't be able to control what comes out of the woods. And instead of the monster, John Locke steps out. He tells Ben that he knows where to find the smoke monster. How? When Locke was being pulled by the smoke monster it was about to pull him into a hole in the ground...not into the temple. How does he know where the temple is? Locke leads Ben to the temple(like how the smoke monster drags people it catches towards its home) but they don't go in the main way, they go in through the hole in the ground(the hole that the monster drags people into, i.e.- the french team). Locke knows the real reason Ben needs to be judged without Ben telling him so, and when Ben finally admits it, it is right after that that he falls through the floor. Locke leaves to go find rope. Ben encounters the smoke monster. Locke shows back up with rope asking what happened. If that isn't a Clark Kent/Superman moment I don't know what is.
So, what do you guys think?
Oh...last thing. I thought Ben's line about the Whispers was really interesting, though i don't have much to add to that comment.
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quote:Okay...Locke is missing in the woods. Ben calls the monster and says to Sun he won't be able to control what comes out of the woods. And instead of the monster, John Locke steps out. He tells Ben that he knows where to find the smoke monster. How? When Locke was being pulled by the smoke monster it was about to pull him into a hole in the ground...not into the temple. How does he know where the temple is? Locke leads Ben to the temple(like how the smoke monster drags people it catches towards its home) but they don't go in the main way, they go in through the hole in the ground(the hole that the monster drags people into, i.e.- the french team). Locke knows the real reason Ben needs to be judged without Ben telling him so, and when Ben finally admits it, it is right after that that he falls through the floor. Locke leaves to go find rope. Ben encounters the smoke monster. Locke shows back up with rope asking what happened. If that isn't a Clark Kent/Superman moment I don't know what is.
So, what do you guys think?
That's exactly what I thought when Locke kept disappearing whenever the Monster was supposed to come. I was thinking that perhaps Locke's relationship to the Monster is similar to Christian's. After all, Christian is supposed to be dead, yet keeps appearing as alive to people on the island. Perhaps both are examples of living dead.
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Hopefully next week we'll get to find out how young Ben survived... and where Daniel has been. I'm still guessing he's got some time travel plan centered at the Hatch.
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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quote: Ben seems genuinly interested in what is in the crate at the beginning of the episode.
There's no reason for some random crash victims to be moving a huge box around on the island. They've been there at most a few days. Why would they need to move things? Where to? Why? Ben would immediately jump on this strangeness if he didn't have some inkling or knowledge of the box's contents.
I don't disagree with anything in particular, but I did want to point out that it is completely uncharacteristic of Ben to offer to help random people move their big box. It seems to me that if Ben were genuinely curious about the box's contents, he would've pushed harder, or found some sneaky way to get inside. As it stands, though he's usually completely aware of and suspicious of the things going on around him, he let the completely bizarre declaration of "we need to move some things" slide, and walked off to his next move. Uncharacteristic? I think so, unless he does know what's in the box.
So maybe they're not Widmore's people, but unwittingly Ben's? This would maybe shed some light on the callous "who cares?" statement Ben uttered on 316 before the take-off when Jack asked about the other passengers. If Ben had people on board set to take additional on-island steps, he would've counted on their survival.
I still don't believe Ben about his reasons for killing Locke. Neither of the pieces of information that Locke gave him before the murder: "Jin's alive!", or "I know about Eloise Hawking!" would seem to be specific things Ben needed to know. Could Jin's survival possibly be that important? I seriously doubt it -- and mere knowledge of Eloise would mean, what, exactly? Who told Locke about Eloise? Is that the connection that Ben was looking for?
quote:Oh...last thing. I thought Ben's line about the Whispers was really interesting, though i don't have much to add to that comment.
Agreed. And I remember thinking specifically at the time that it seemed less that Ben was warning her in general, and more that he was warning her because he had some knowledge of the whispers: what they are, where they came from, and what they *mean*, specifically.
But if nothing else, this entire scene showed us Ben's fantastic improvisational skills being a constant presence in his life (i.e., that he doesn't always have a plan laid out, but can and does make things up as he goes along): he was sent to kill Rousseau and mere seconds after realizing she had a child, he decided to keep the child, let Rousseau live, and concocted a completely believable threat to Rousseau, including firing the gun, warning about the whispers, and using the baby as leverage. He is a seriously quick thinker with a level head in a crisis, an interesting fact considering that moments before lil Ethan was offering to do the deed for him.
quote:I was thinking that perhaps Locke's relationship to the Monster is similar to Christian's. After all, Christian is supposed to be dead, yet keeps appearing as alive to people on the island. Perhaps both are examples of living dead.
Tresopax, your thoughts mirror mine. In fact, I really have to wonder if Locke has been physically resurrected or if he is more like Christian or Claire or the pscyhologist lady, and so on, and can physically manifest wherever he likes.
quote:And I remember thinking specifically at the time that it seemed less that Ben was warning her in general, and more that he was warning her because he had some knowledge of the whispers: what they are, where they came from, and what they *mean*, specifically.
I've got to wonder about Ben, too. He seems to have an insider scoop on the Whispers and knows some about the Monster, but appears almost clueless at other points. Or is that feeling just due to the stark contrast struck between Ben and Locke in this episode?
Leonide, I think you brought up some interesting points to that Ben/Ethan/Rousseau/baby Alex scene.
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So Ben tells Locke he expected his resurrection. And then proceeded to tell Sun he's never seen anything like this and is scared to death of it all. Which one is the truth?
All of those things can be true. Ben may have expected the Island to bring Locke back to life and he may have never seen anything like it before and it may scare the hell out of him.
posted
IIRC, Sun asked flat out "You knew this would happen?" to which Ben explicitly denied. The two stories were mutually exclusive I believe.
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posted
That Clark Kent/Superman thing with Locke and the Monster is really intriguing. If this is the case, then I think we have some very significant evidence that the monster allows people who have work to do to remain alive.
Which would bring up the question of what Christian's purpose is. I think he may have been involved with the Island for quite a long time. He made many trips between Sydney and Los Angeles. This was to see his second family, but he had ample opportunity to visit the Island.
Posts: 684 | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
The story Ben told Sun is the one I believe. What do you say when you wake up face-to-face with a man you strangled to death? There's hardly a moment in the last episode where Ben is with Locke that I wouldn't read Ben's underlying expression as, "Oh, @$#%. Oh, @%#$. Oh..."
The last couple of episodes seem to have been an attempt to humanize Ben. (Look, he likes kids! Hey, he's "that way" because of what the Island did to him! Hey, he hesitated when he discovered Penny had a child!) Frankly, most of what the episodes said to me is, yes, Ben is a manipulative, homicidal creep- but as manipulative homicidal creeps go, he's a piker next to the Island itself.
Which I was kind of suspecting anyway.
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posted
Maybe Ben isn't evil? I've always thought Ben seemed to be acting the way he does because he needs to protect whatever secrets the Island has. He has chosen to take a Machiavellian approach because that is what is required to avoid catastrophe.
I had the same thought you did, Sterling, about Ben and Locke. Ben seemed absolutely terrified, maybe because he realizes that he doesn't know everything about the Island.
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posted
That "You're Mine" episode with Ben and Juliet will always be there to remind us that Ben is pretty darn evil.
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quote:Originally posted by Leonide: So maybe they're not Widmore's people, but unwittingly Ben's?
I've been thinking about this. At first my thought process told me you were right. That it was more like Ben was playing a game, or possibly testing Illana. That he was responsible for her catching sayid and bringing him on the plane. And that his manipulation and murder of Caesar makes more sense in this light.
But then I thought that from a probability standpoint, Ben already has a bunch of "his" people on the Island, and it would even out the numbers somewhat if these new people were Widmore's. And they were like his scouting party, preparing for the "war".
Maybe Ben's weird curiosity was his attempt at trying to seem "normal". I don't know, i'm up in the air about this one.
quote:Originally posted by Xavier: IIRC, Sun asked flat out "You knew this would happen?" to which Ben explicitly denied. The two stories were mutually exclusive I believe.
yeah, i worded it badly in my post, but whatever the exact wording was Ben definitely contradicted himself.
quote:Originally posted by The Reader: Maybe Ben isn't evil? I've always thought Ben seemed to be acting the way he does because he needs to protect whatever secrets the Island has. He has chosen to take a Machiavellian approach because that is what is required to avoid catastrophe.
I've said this before, but I really think that both Ben AND Widmore have the best interest of the Island in mind. But I also think they're both selfish and greedy, and so will do what's best for the Island, and whatever they can to make sure they're the one in control...that they have the power.
Posts: 8741 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote: but I really think that both Ben AND Widmore have the best interest of the Island in mind
Ben I could understand, but what evidence do we have that Widmore has the "best interest" of the Island in mind? He doesn't use that terminology to discuss the Island, like Ben does, and he was exiled from it, and he always seems like this hot-headed power-hungry individual, not working for a nebulous greater good, but for his own ends (namely, it appears, regaining control of a mystical island).
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posted
Everyone want to hear sometihng cool, I found this in a random page in Wired magazine.
First there is a Lotto ticket with 4,8,15,16,23 MEGA NUMBER 42
Then it is strange. It goes like this 17 1 22 16 8 6 20 11 18 18 10 14 7 7 5 18 22 7 5 6 24 15 12 13 1 8 4 34 18 55 14 93 54 5 6 11 10 13 30 12 6 19 2 22 5 2 1 117 2 17 1 17
The first four are on one page, the second four are on the second page. There is no text, can anyone find a secret message? I can not.
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