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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » Lost Season 6 (Page 6)

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Author Topic: Lost Season 6
theCrowsWife
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I remember there was some speculation a while ago that Claire had actually died when the missile hit her house, and that's why she disappeared later. At the time, I figured that was false because she carried Aaron before she left, but now we have Esau wearing Locke's image and he can interact with the physical world with no problem. So maybe Claire did die then, and was either resurrected by Esau or had her image taken by him. Maybe it was a practice run before becoming Locke. [Wink]

--Mel

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The Rabbit
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quote:
I thought it was made completely clear that Claire had been in the pool, since the leader of the Temple said the same thing happened to her that was happening to Sayid.
By the same thing happening, Dogen very clearly meant being taken over by darkness. There is absolutely no evidence that he meant that she had been in the pool.
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Wendybird
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Ask Ausiello at msnbc.com had this posted:

[QUOTE]here’s your juicy “Lost” spoiler: Someone has a kid in their flash-sideways. [/QUOTE

Someone in the comments posited that it was Juliet and when she whispered it worked she meant her research on getting pregnant on the island and not dying = Juliet was/is pregnant.....not sure if that works or not since we haven't seen her in a flash sideways but I assume we will eventually

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Leonide
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Maybe "it worked" was Juliet being pregnant before she died in the 1977 timeline. I was so sure that's what she was going to tell Sawyer when I first saw that ep...
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docmagik
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Yeah, I've got a theory on that one, too.

The last couple of seasons, there have been direct connections between plot points in the season finales, season premieres, and the season finales and premieres of the following seasons.

For example:

Season finale: Jack looks in casket.
Season finale: We see Locke is in Casket
Season finale: We find out Locke really is dead after all

So I'm guessing:

Season 5 finale: Juliet dies
Season 6 finale: We see Juliet goes around checking up on everybody in alt timeline, sees it's worked out better for all the losties she knows, maybe she finds Sawyer, but then she comes back into alt self dying, goes to talk to Sawyer, but she just as she dies, she flashes back into her alt self, smiles, and says, "It worked."

End series.

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Strider
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why would "it worked" have anything to do with being pregnant? The problem isn't that people can't get pregnant on the Island, it's that they die before they can give birth. And we also know she wasn't working on the pregnancy issue in 77, she was busy being an auto mechanic (and given that she helped deliver Ethan we know the pregnancy issue didn't exist in '77), so I doubt it would be referencing that either.

Anyway, I'm sticking to my theory about "it worked" as it's the only explanation that also fits with her two lines directly preceding her death.

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Sterling
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Others drown Sayid. "Your friend is dead."

Others poison Sayid. "Your friend is dead this time."

Others riddle Sayid with bullets. "We're pretty sure your friend is dead."

Jack: "Why do we continue cooperating with you guys in any way...?"

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JonnyNotSoBravo
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quote:
Originally posted by docmagik:

Season 5 finale: Juliet dies

Juliet dies in the Season 6 premiere, not in the Season 5 finale.
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Bella Bee
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If you recall, as Charlotte was dying she started saying the same words that she spoke to Daniel as a little girl, almost as if she was that little girl again, half in one time and half in another.
Then she remembers who he was back then.

As Juliet was dying, she asks Sawyer out for coffee, almost as if she was half in one timeline, and half in the other.
Then she remembers where she is and understands that the bomb really did create a new reality.

I thought that scene was a nice call back to what happened with Charlotte, and raises the possibility that when the characters are seconds from death, they are mentally connected to their time-shifted doubles and have an insight that others don't.

I don't really see any connection with pregnancy.

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Strider
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Bella, I thought the same basic thing about Juliet, i.e. - that she was accessing the alternate time line. But I'd say that the mechanism was quite different from what happened with Charlotte. Charlotte wasn't really half in one time and half in the other, she was going through the same thing that happened to Theresa, and what was happening to Desmond and Minkowski. Her consciousness was unstuck in time, but within one timeline, not multiple...anyway...I think later this season we'll see an episode where altSawyer meets altJuliet and we see Juliet say those same lines again.
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Uprooted
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Sorry to post before the Left Coast has seen it -- but I'm going to bed soon.

So I went into this episode a little bit jaded, wondering if I was going to want to keep watching. But I thought it was great. Things are getting interesting.

Although I have to admit, even though they were climbing down instead of up, the music and everything about that scene reminded me of Vizzini & co. ascending the Cliffs of Insanity while being pursued by the Dread Pirate Roberts.

Who was the kid?

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LargeTuna
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New episode! I liked it a lot and the whole Ben Linus in the flashsideways was cool. I still want him to be a confident smart guy, and not some annoying teacher (I'm ok with him being both)

I like Sawyer as a good guy, so I hope he's making a plan against black smoke.

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msquared
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I think the kid is Jacob. Or Aaron

msquared

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Uprooted
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msquared (squared squared squared), those were the two that occurred to me as well.
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Dobbie
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BTW, Uprooted latest post made a lot more sense before msquared deleted the 3 duplicates of his last post.
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Strider
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I thought Lost MORE than redeemed itself this week! What a fantastic episode.

I thought the same thing about the kid(Jacob, not Aaron). And that when he said "him", he was talking about Sawyer.

I might actually need to watch it again before i can write up thoughts, there was THAT much info this week.

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msquared
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Yeah sorry about that. My home internet was acting funny last nigth. I would hit "add reply" and nothing would happen. I hit it a few more times and then refreshed the page and there was my reply, 3-4 times.

Do we all agree that the others, or at least most of them, were slaves on the Black Rock?

msquared

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Strider
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No. We don't! Why do you think that?

Certainly Richard was, but I don't think we have any indication of anyone else also being immortal, or being a descendant of black rock people.

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The Rabbit
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quote:
Do we all agree that the others, or at least most of them, were slaves on the Black Rock?
Nope. We know that at least some of them were passengers on Oceanic 815, so its certain that not all of them came as slaves on the Black Rock. Also, the slave trade (by sailing vessels) was almost exclusively in Africans and very few of the others are of obvious African ancestry, so unless they are really playing fast and loose with such well known historical facts, there is no way that most of the others came as slaves on the Black Rock or even that most of their others ancestors came as slaves on the Black Rock.

Given that "bait and switch" is the only real constant in this show, I'm unwilling to accept anything that hasn't been established as in the actual aired TV episodes as "fact". Speculate all you want, just be sure to keep in mind the difference between what the writers have actually established as fact and your speculations.

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The Rabbit
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quote:
Originally posted by Strider:
Certainly Richard was, but I don't think we have any indication of anyone else also being immortal, or being a descendant of black rock people.

That is most certainly not certain. Possible, maybe even likely, but definitely not "certain". Locke/Esau's reference to chains could have many different things, the most likely of which was Richard's servitude to Jacob and not a reference to him being a slave.

Given his race, if Richard came to the island on the Black Rock, it almost certainly wasn't as a slave in chains but as a slave trader.

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Strider
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fair enough Rabbit, change my certainly to "I think it's likely". [Smile]
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theCrowsWife
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Ben claimed that he had brought in most of the Others. Now, this is Ben, but I suspect that's probably true of the Others that lived in the old Dharma stations and barracks. The more reclusive Others that hang out with Richard and/or at the Temple are probably made up more of older groups.

--

One thing we noticed was that Kate wasn't on the list of candidates, even though Jacob interacted with her as a child. I have some vague thoughts on possible reasons why, but they haven't coalesced enough to articulate yet.

Also, Ben gets all the best lines. "...and I'm very sorry I murdered him," had us practically rolling on the floor laughing.

--Mel

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The Rabbit
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Oh, it just occurred to me that the Black Rock could have been prison ship taking convicts to Australia.

If that is the case, then I think its much more likely that Richard and many of the others derive from the Black Rock.

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Strider
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quote:
Also, Ben gets all the best lines. "...and I'm very sorry I murdered him," had us practically rolling on the floor laughing.

aww, and I thought that was actually one of Ben's sweeter moments. [Smile]

The look and grunt that Lapidus gives after that moment is priceless.

Miles's name was also on the cave, but crossed out. Why? Is Ilana a candidate? If so, was her name crossed out?

While it's no huge surprise that the number are associated with Losites(the lost experience and valenzetti equation hinted at that strongly), and it tied into Faraday's talk last season of the Losties being the variables in the equations that he hadn't accounted for, I was a bit surprised that each number was literally associated with one person. Which begs the question, how did Jacob choose the numbers and what is the significance of the number associated with each individual? How did Dharma get those six numbers to use? And why are those six people the last candidates?

I'm wondering if Lost backed themselves into a wall with this, by limiting the number of candidates left to those 6 numbers, thus leaving out Miles, Claire, Kate, Illana, etc...did they just fit things to explain a former mystery, or has this been planned out for a while with yet more information that we're not aware of?

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Tresopax
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Did anyone else notice there's seemingly a contradiction in alternate Ben's life? When the nuke went off, Ben was on the island - he had just been healed in the temple when The Incident occurs. Yet he is surviving off the island in modern times in the alternate timeline. So, how was he not blown up?
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The Rabbit
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quote:
Originally posted by Tresopax:
Did anyone else notice there's seemingly a contradiction in alternate Ben's life? When the nuke went off, Ben was on the island - he had just been healed in the temple when The Incident occurs. Yet he is surviving off the island in modern times in the alternate timeline. So, how was he not blown up?

We still don't know exactly when the timeline reset.
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JonnyNotSoBravo
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Could it be something as simple as their seat numbers on the plane? Did any of the names that were crossed out and were of people not on the plane have numbers associated with them?

I feel like Sayid has been infected with Jacob's essence at the pool, which is why Jacob said it was so important for Sayid to stay alive and to take him to the temple. But we'll know more after we see Claire's interactions with people.

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The Rabbit
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Airplane seat numbers have a number and letter.
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JonnyNotSoBravo
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Passenger number on the manifest?
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The Rabbit
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Here are the names and associated numbers

4: Locke
8: Reyes
15: Ford
16: Jarrah
23: Shepherd
42: Kwon

On the plane, Jack was sitting in row 23. But row 4 would have been in first class and row 8 would have been in first or business class. Locke and Reyes were definitely not in those rows.

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Tresopax
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quote:
We still don't know exactly when the timeline reset.
But one would think that the timeline split when the bomb went off, if the bomb was the thing that triggered the alternate reality.

Ben's new life makes it seem like that is not the case, though.

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Strider
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And there are numbers associated with people who were not on any plane. Like Miles and Charlotte(or their parents). So this theory only would really work for those 6, and not the myriad of other people on that wall. This page shows all the numbers and names visible, and it goes up into the 700s.

Tres, same with Ethan from last episode. He would have been an infant on the Island.

The Rabbit, remember, it's not exactly a reset as much as two diverging time lines. One where whatever happened, happened. And the other, where the nuke works. I think we're meant to assume that the time lines diverged from the point of the nuke. I really hope they don't have it be a reset to an arbitrary point in time. So yes, I think they do need to explain how Ben and Ethan are off the Island.

edit - Tres replied while I was replying!

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Strider
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I really think we're asking the wrong questions here. The significance of which number is associated with which person might be nothing. It just might be the order in which Jacob wrote these names down. It might even be a LIST that Jacob was given eons ago, with all these names, and he crosses them out one by one.

I really do think the more important question is why are the six candidates left associated with OUR numbers. With the Dharma numbers. My speculation is that answer will also be as simple as something like a time hopping Lostie, possibly Hurley, who gets the numbers into Dharma's hands somehow in the past. Either that, or they'll tie the numbers into the Valenzetti equation and make it a sort of fate/destiny issue, that these six people were always destined to be the final six candidates.

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The Reader
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Well, I was blown away. That was a terrific episode. I don't have anything to offer in the wau of theories because the show has become so dense with mysteries. I did think that it was pretty cool to see things from smokey's POV.
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Tresopax
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Another thought: The Smoke Monster seems to think Jacob is looking for someone to protect the island. Yet Jacob's manipulations led to the island being destroyed in the alternate reality. The Smoke Monster seems completely unaware of the alternate reality... but does Jacob know it exists? If he did, his goal must not simply be to find a protector for the island, given his plan sunk the island. Maybe the "candidate" has something more important to do?
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Lisa
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Who says that's what led to the island being destroyed? Maybe Jacob didn't engage in his manipulations in that reality. Maybe it's the lack of Jacob that led to the island falling.

There's an interesting parallel between Jacob and his need to find a replacement and Desmond's need to find a replacement when he was punching in the numbers. It's almost as though the punching in of the numbers was the same as what Jacob does, writ small.

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Strider
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That is a pretty cool parallel Lisa.

Another one that I found interesting was Locke and Esau in the two different time lines. In altTime when Rose tells Locke that they should find something he CAN do, he learns to accept things, and doesn't say his famous "don't tell me what I can't do" line. But on the Island, when the little boy tells Esau he can't kill him, Esau yells, "don't tell me what I can't do". Which I thought was a nice ironic flip flop on those two characters. Especially given Sawyer's statements about how him and Esau are totally opposite.

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The Rabbit
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Some random thought, questions and opinions in no particular order.

1. Why is Locke's name still on the list? He's dead?

2. Why isn't Kate on the list? She's the only main character from flight 815 who definitely isn't. If they'd wanted to include her, they could have used 108 or since Locke is dead, they could have left him off the list. Why this choice?

3. How did names get crossed off the list? When was the last name crossed off? Now that Jacob is dead, will names continue to be crossed off the lsit?

4. I'm sceptical of everything Locke/Esau/Monster says. I suspect that at least half of it is untrue. I think he's trying to con Sawyer. I'm betting Sawyer knows this and is working on the reverse con.

5. I think we've got as much explanation of the numbers as we are going to get. They've said they aren't going to answer all the questions and I'm betting this one will be left where it is, mostly but not completely explained.

6. I roll my eyes every time some one says "Valenzetti equation". The writers have said that the Lost Experience and other non broadcast stuff isn't particularly important, even though it is "cannon". That easy, you won't need to know anything about the Lost Experience to understand the show. Nothing from the Lost experience has made it into the show in the last couple of seasons and I doubt it will during this final season. The writers may choose to throw the hard core fans a bone with some minor reference, but I really don't think it will be a major part of unraveling the mystery.

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Strider
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Rabbit, I don't think it has to be. I think the explanation of the Losties relation to the numbers works with or without the knowledge from the Lost Experience. But I also think it fits nicely in with that information as well(i.e- if you asked me 3 years ago what the numbers meant I could have told you they stood for the Losties). I think you're right that they won't reference it directly ever, even if further exposition conforms to what we know about it.

[ February 17, 2010, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: Strider ]

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The Rabbit
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A couple more thoughts.

The writers have said that they aren't going to answer all our questions, so for sometime I've been trying to distill things down to the central questions they have to answer to make it a good story in my eyes. I think Locke/monsters most important question "Why are you on this island?", did that. If they can provide a really complete and satisfying answer to that question, it won't matter to me what other threads they live hanging.

So far we know that Jacob and Esau are locked in some sort of competition/battle and are bound by the "rules of the game". We know that Jacob selects people and brings them to the island. We know the battle has been going on for over a century, possibly through multiple time loops and that all our players have been pawns of one side or the other in this game.

Now they have to flesh that out. What is this battle/game, what are the objectives of each side, what are the rules and how did Jacob and Esau get locked into it? Will our players be able to escape the game? Will that be a good thing or a bad thing?

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The Reader
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I found it quite startling that antiJacob (or whatever his name is) said the island is just an island. It isn't special and doesn't need defenders. Has the Island really been a ruse all along, and the secret is something else on the island?
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Strider
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Esau is a manipulator. It's hard to know what to believe with him.
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The Rabbit
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quote:
Originally posted by The Reader:
I found it quite startling that antiJacob (or whatever his name is) said the island is just an island. It isn't special and doesn't need defenders. Has the Island really been a ruse all along, and the secret is something else on the island?

Read my point #4 above. I don't think we can take anything Esau says at face value.
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Leonide
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quote:
Originally posted by The Reader:
I found it quite startling that antiJacob (or whatever his name is) said the island is just an island. It isn't special and doesn't need defenders. Has the Island really been a ruse all along, and the secret is something else on the island?

I agree with Strider and The Rabbit. Plus, I thought it was telling that Sawyer didn't question what Flocke's place was in this whole "Choosing Candidates" business. Sawyer's definitely in for the Long Con -- if the Island's unimportant, what are you doing here all stressed out and kooky, Smokey? Yeah, that's right. Liar.
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The Reader
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Smokey knows Sawyer's abilities. He probably can guess there is a long con going on. I think this is a con on Sawyer, possibly to use him as he used Ben, but for a different reason of course.

I have a bad feeling that Sawyer isn't going to survive. There is no reason to believe that Smokey will let him live, with his past. Smokey has killed others who have done shady, murderous acts.

And yeah, I should have known that Smokey would say the island is nothing special.

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docmagik
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What if the names in the cave are just smokey's COPIES of the real names of candidates, written by smokey, and he crosses them out when he either kills them himself or gets them killed? And Jacob's real list is elsewhere?
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Uprooted
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quote:
Originally posted by Strider:
But on the Island, when the little boy tells Esau he can't kill him, Esau yells, "don't tell me what I can't do". Which I thought was a nice ironic flip flop on those two characters. Especially given Sawyer's statements about how him and Esau are totally opposite.

I also wonder if this bears any relation to Ilana's comment that Smokey is now stuck in the form of Locke (or something like that--anyone know the actual wording?). When Smokey/Esau said Locke's line, it made me wonder if he was somehow starting to take on Locke's characteristics.
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kanelock1
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I was thinking the same thing. what if by taking on Lockes form was more than just physical? Could he have taken on some of Lockes personality as well? Could Johns personality be strong enough to start influencing Smokey?
Also, there is a reasonable explanation for Ben and Ethan being off the island in the alt time line. Remember, in The Incident Dharma was starting to evacuate the island.Why would they not take young Ben and Ethan with them?

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Raymond Arnold
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As good a name as Esau is, I have to say that "The Locke-ness Monster" is the best one I've heard so far.
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MightyCow
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Some of this stuff is starting to remind me of the Mistborn trilogy by Brandon Sanderson. I won't spoil the (excellent) books by pointing out the specifics, but there are some parallels that I find enjoyable.
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