posted
It sounds to me like the only difference between Provo and most other U.S. cities is that instead of being set-up to favor white Mormon men, the rest are set-up to favor white men of some other Christian religion.
Homophobia is everywhere. Utah does not have a monopoly on it, they just seem to be slightly more vocal about it.
I'm from the south so I see plenty of racism. I could be wrong but I doubt Provo can hold a candle to the mountains of Virginia.
But then Utah is one of the only states I have never visited. One of these days I'm going to have to experience this alien land for myself.
Posts: 891 | Registered: Feb 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Dogbreath: You keep reading way too much into what I'm saying here. I never said you haven't experienced prejudice, or that you haven't seen it. Heck, as a white man living in Hawaii I experience racism on a daily basis. I'm saying, specific to your comment that you didn't notice a difference in your quality of life in Utah, that of course you didn't, because the culture in Utah is set up to mostly benefit white Mormon men. You seem to realize this too, but somehow think this is an insult when I point it out. It's not. I get treated well whenever I visit Utah, too. So, if Utah seens analogous to, say, Colorado for you, it probably *is*. For you. For, say a gay minority teenager, Colorado and Utah seem like different worlds, the quality of life is so different.
To the extent you have experienced bigotry, doesn't that confirm my point? About that strange fear of outsiders you experience in Utah?
This entire debate is why I feel justified in saying stories like this are not surprising coming from Utah. And the response so far seems to be "yeah, Utah really is a messed up state, but you're not allowed to say it." I fail to see where we really disagree, other than a sort of knee-jerk, circle the wagons mentality. It baffles me, honestly.
If the goal of this discussion is simply to establish that Utah is one seriously effed up state and to have that fact acknowledged without qualification, then I can see why it's been so frustrating to you. You've offered a couple of solid stats and a bunch of anecdotes while hinting that you could offer hundreds more. But you don't seem to want anyone to offer any counterexamples, even if they acknowledge that the problems your stats represent are real. You're effectively invalidating anyone's voice unless they happen to be minority, have experienced bad things growing up in the state, or have fled because they don't like the people there for any number of reasons. When anyone argues, you accuse them of being blind to what's really going on. I'm not saying any of these things don't exist or aren't worthy of addressing seriously. But you're trying to posit an environment that's suited to your views and experiences only, and that's why you keep getting pushback.
Basically, you're showing that you can't see past your own viewpoint any better than you're claiming a straight white male with a favorable opinion of Utah can.
Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
No, I'm really, really not trying to invalidate anyone's voice at all. I feel like I'm turning into a broken record here, and no matter how many times I repeat that point it's not understood. I think everyone has an equal voice, and everyone's opinion matters.
Literally all I've been saying is, if you don't experience oppression while living in a system that is set up to not oppress, but indeed, benefit you, it doesn't mean that oppression doesn't exist.
For example, I can honestly say I've never seriously been a victim of sexism in the military. That is true, it's valid, my voice is a valid thing, and my experience is a valid part of the overall picture.
Now let's say we're having an argument about sexism and the military, and you provide links to several studies, statistics, and anecdotes about sexism in the military and argue they demonstrate there's a serious problem with the culture and institutions that comprise it, and as a rebuttle I respond "I haven't experienced any more sexism in the military than anywhere else." That would be a true and accurate and valid experience, but it wouldn't be very useful for establishing whether or not sexism actually happens, since I'm part of the group unaffected by it.
So I'm rather inclined to believe the statistics that show that Utah has double the percentage of homeless gay youth, or stories of women who get raped at BYU and told it's their fault, and believe they're a better indication of how minorities and women are treated. If I wanted an accurate picture of how straight white Mormon men are treated in Utah are treated, then obviously statistics and anecdotes from straight white Mormon men would be the most useful. What I absolutely deny is that anecdotes from the group set up to benefit from oppression are somehow more valid than or equally valid to those of the group being oppressed, when we're talking about oppression, the existence thereof, and the extent to which it happens. I absolutely deny that sort of false equivilence, because it's just flat out illogical and immoral.
It's like a caseworker going to a family where there's been allegations of child abuse, corroborated by bruises, stories, etc. But then asking the parents if there's abuse happening, and they say "well, we haven't been abused, so obviously not!" and somehow accepting that as proof that abuse never occured. It's not the parents who were the victims in the first place.
I don't know how to possibly explain it in clearer terms. I can say the continued misunderstanding of it is pretty saddening to me, but I also realize it's a big hurdle to overcome.
I'll also note that that I never denied there are plenty of good, decent, wholesome people in Utah. But as a rather extreme counterexample, there are plenty of good, decent, wholesome people in Afghanistan. I know many of them, and anecdotally I can even say they are the majority. But it's also a country with social and cultural issues several orders of magnitude worse than Utah, or the USA in general, and not a place I recommend moving. Especially if you're not male, Muslim, and straight.
As a less extreme counterexample, I'm writing this in Los Angeles, a single city with far more oppression, racism, homelessness, illiteracy, gang violence, and ignorance than the entire State of Utah. I'm soon going to be flying back home to Hawaii, a state that has severe corruption issues, as well as many cultural problems, including racism, classism, and xenophobia on a scale that sometimes leads to violence.
Utah is much worse than the United States as a whole when it comes to certain issues, like homophobia, sexism, racism, and child abuse. It's also much better than the US as a whole when it comes to literacy, gang warfare, drunk driving, and several other issues. It's a tossup, and if you're the sort of person who can benefit from living in that culture, then of course you'll enjoy it and more power to you, I guess.
OTOH, as usual, my attempts to address the real and actual problems experienced in Utah has been exaggerated into a hyperbole of me trying to prove Utah is somehow hell on Earth. Seriously, read through this thread and look at what I've actually said, and how it's been parroted back in almost unrecognizable terms. This is the sort of knee-jerk defense I'm talking about, which I haven't really seen from any other group. (Except possibly Texans)
Posts: 2222 | Registered: Dec 2008
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posted
Well, if you'd unpacked it in your first post like you did in this one, I for one would have responded much differently. I know my defense was knee-jerk as well. I hear so many people say something like you did as soon as they hear the name "Utah." They might have legitimate strong feelings and bad experiences with the place, or they're just using it as the example of everything that's wrong with the world because hey, Mormon tea bagger red state, but all that comes out is that one piece of snark.
The whole time I lived there I never felt like Utah was perfect and problem free. Just the opposite, in fact: the divides there are sharper than in any other place I've been, the gulfs deeper, and the animus being hurled back and forth over the no man's lands more incendiary and harmful. People do tend to huddle together in like-minded communities where things going wrong can be ignored until they get too big to ignore anymore. The LDS church has a huge presence in this, because it's where the biggest divides are, and those divides go all the way back to the beginning of settlement in the state. The church gets used as justification and leverage _all the time_ by everyone for or against it. It really feels like living on the front lines of a war zone there. For a boy who grew up in Minnesota and was the token Mormon at school, it was eye-opening to move to Utah where my beliefs were being constantly questioned and ridiculed, at the same time that they were being actively affirmed. While that's what's unique about the state, or at least the Wasatch Front that I am familiar with, there is also the complex mix of good and bad that exists in every area regardless of its particular demographics.
There's a strong inclination, especially in previously sleepy towns like Provo, Orem, Lehi, etc., to not want to see ugliness, to treat it like it doesn't exist, and that's a big problem. People with that mindset really can ignore things happening right in front of them and deny the severity of what's going on, especially if it can't be fixed with a casserole and regular home teaching visits. But it highlights the fact that there's a ton of waking up to do, and the work's cut out for us in addressing a lot of damage that's happening to people who should never have to feel like outcasts.
People like me, white, straight, and male, on the privileged end of the spectrum both in places like Utah and just about anywhere else, obviously can't fathom what others are going through, often because of the ignorance and thoughtlessness of people like me. I have an enormous responsibility to change how I view and treat others, and it's good to have it in front of my face. I guess what I react to is that blanket condemnation that renders anything I say worse than useless and assumes I'm hopeless because I'm part of the oppressive set. That blend of misconceptions and generalizations tends to create a defensive posture instead of the awareness and cooperation you might ultimately be driving for. I'm not shying away from the problems or the discussion, but I also feel bound to correct claims that are simply not true.
Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
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quote:It sounds to me like the only difference between Provo and most other U.S. cities is that instead of being set-up to favor white Mormon men, the rest are set-up to favor white men of some other Christian religion.
It's a bit more than that. In most other place I've been the white men thing stands, but diversity of philosophy and opinion is a lot less... risky? As a progressive, non-Mormon, white male, I mostly feel OK because the only visible parts are the privileged parts but I do experience a sense of otherness and always have. I sometimes forget it and usually don't need to be concerned about it, but it's always there. When I visit somewhere more metropolitan - San Francisco, San Diego, even Salt Lake City - there is an almost tangible sensation of that washing away and I am no longer an "other" even though I may be hundreds of miles from the home I've lived in for almost 20 years.
That's really a separate issue though from whether Provo is a bad place or people in Provo are somehow worse than elsewhere. By whatever metric you may want to judge it by though, I believe it is improving. I was at the Provo High prom a couple years ago and there were two same-sex couples which were announced with no fanfare (well the same fanfare as everyone else). There is a Provo Pride festival coming up next month and the announcement on the Provo Facebook groups was met with only positive comments and "likes". There are liberals and feminists, and they are definitely a minority voice, but they are become less afraid of sharing their views.
BYU also is not Provo. Most people who attend BYU are not Provo residents. It's a private church property *in* Provo, so if you wish to expand criticism for the product of BYU beyond the campus it should probably be assigned to the LDS church and not the campus' parent municipality.
Posts: 3275 | Registered: May 2007
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quote:Originally posted by advice for robots: Well, if you'd unpacked it in your first post like you did in this one, I for one would have responded much differently.
That's my fault, and I apologize for it. I have a tendency to be too brusque and forward, and it's something I need to work on.
quote: I know my defense was knee-jerk as well. I hear so many people say something like you did as soon as they hear the name "Utah." They might have legitimate strong feelings and bad experiences with the place, or they're just using it as the example of everything that's wrong with the world because hey, Mormon tea bagger red state, but all that comes out is that one piece of snark.
The whole time I lived there I never felt like Utah was perfect and problem free. Just the opposite, in fact: the divides there are sharper than in any other place I've been, the gulfs deeper, and the animus being hurled back and forth over the no man's lands more incendiary and harmful. People do tend to huddle together in like-minded communities where things going wrong can be ignored until they get too big to ignore anymore. The LDS church has a huge presence in this, because it's where the biggest divides are, and those divides go all the way back to the beginning of settlement in the state. The church gets used as justification and leverage _all the time_ by everyone for or against it. It really feels like living on the front lines of a war zone there. For a boy who grew up in Minnesota and was the token Mormon at school, it was eye-opening to move to Utah where my beliefs were being constantly questioned and ridiculed, at the same time that they were being actively affirmed. While that's what's unique about the state, or at least the Wasatch Front that I am familiar with, there is also the complex mix of good and bad that exists in every area regardless of its particular demographics.
There's a strong inclination, especially in previously sleepy towns like Provo, Orem, Lehi, etc., to not want to see ugliness, to treat it like it doesn't exist, and that's a big problem. People with that mindset really can ignore things happening right in front of them and deny the severity of what's going on, especially if it can't be fixed with a casserole and regular home teaching visits. But it highlights the fact that there's a ton of waking up to do, and the work's cut out for us in addressing a lot of damage that's happening to people who should never have to feel like outcasts.
People like me, white, straight, and male, on the privileged end of the spectrum both in places like Utah and just about anywhere else, obviously can't fathom what others are going through, often because of the ignorance and thoughtlessness of people like me. I have an enormous responsibility to change how I view and treat others, and it's good to have it in front of my face. I guess what I react to is that blanket condemnation that renders anything I say worse than useless and assumes I'm hopeless because I'm part of the oppressive set. That blend of misconceptions and generalizations tends to create a defensive posture instead of the awareness and cooperation you might ultimately be driving for. I'm not shying away from the problems or the discussion, but I also feel bound to correct claims that are simply not true.
So, coming from a rather liberal, pacifist group of friends in college, joining the military was an incredibly difficult thing to do. Even though I had been planning it for years, and had some very good, well thought out reasons for it, I ran into an incredible amount of opposition. Often, my well meaning friends wouldn't even let me start explaining before bombarding me with everything they had, not realizing I had heard it all before, or that I was quite aware of all the things they were "informing" me of, thank you very much. Sometimes it would be 8 or 10 of them, and always just one of me.
There was a while where I was so sick of it I would just shut someone down without even listening, because I just wanted to talk about anything else.
All that is to say, I completely understand the "warzone" mentality, and wanted to let you know I read this post and respect it and you.
MattP: That's a good point. Most outsiders (Mormon or otherwise) conflate the town with the university. I'll make sure to avoid making that mistake in the future.
Posts: 2222 | Registered: Dec 2008
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quote:. I guess what I react to is that blanket condemnation that renders anything I say worse than useless and assumes I'm hopeless because I'm part of the oppressive set.
ALL ANGER OF MARGINALIZED PEOPEL IS JUSTIFIED. CHECK YOUR PRIVILEGE. WHITE ALLY STATUS REVOKED
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:. I guess what I react to is that blanket condemnation that renders anything I say worse than useless and assumes I'm hopeless because I'm part of the oppressive set.
ALL ANGER OF MARGINALIZED PEOPEL IS JUSTIFIED. CHECK YOUR PRIVILEGE. WHITE ALLY STATUS REVOKED
Thanks for jumping in.
Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
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quote: I guess what I react to is that blanket condemnation that renders anything I say worse than useless and assumes I'm hopeless because I'm part of the oppressive set.
This is something that was never said, nor even implied. I think you and BlackBlade both took what I said (which was actually set in a very specific context, as a reply to a comment he made) and ran all over the place with it, extrapolating all sorts of meanings and implications that simply aren't there. Even after I repeatedly clarified and reexplained it. Seriously, go back and read it again.
Posts: 2222 | Registered: Dec 2008
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quote:This is something that was never said, nor even implied.
You said something inflammatory and then went in another direction, and I pounced because I tend to respond to posts in chunks as I read them.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:. I guess what I react to is that blanket condemnation that renders anything I say worse than useless and assumes I'm hopeless because I'm part of the oppressive set.
ALL ANGER OF MARGINALIZED PEOPEL IS JUSTIFIED. CHECK YOUR PRIVILEGE. WHITE ALLY STATUS REVOKED
quote:This is something that was never said, nor even implied.
You said something inflammatory and then went in another direction, and I pounced because I tend to respond to posts in chunks as I read them.
I'm now somewhat lost as far as what you're referring to. But as far as afr's comment, again, that was never said nor implied. It went from a "your experience may not be the same as everyone else's", to you and afr inferring "therefore your experiences and opinions are invalid." Which is a pretty illogical jump, especially coming from me. (I.e, if your opinion is invalid, then logically mine is even more so, since I've personally experienced no bigotry in Utah. Obviously that wasn't what I was going for)
Posts: 2222 | Registered: Dec 2008
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quote:. I guess what I react to is that blanket condemnation that renders anything I say worse than useless and assumes I'm hopeless because I'm part of the oppressive set.
ALL ANGER OF MARGINALIZED PEOPEL IS JUSTIFIED. CHECK YOUR PRIVILEGE. WHITE ALLY STATUS REVOKED
Thanks for jumping in.
You're welcome, Utahn
Your broad brush actually is quite soft. And I like what it does to my hair. Who knew?
Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
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quote:This is something that was never said, nor even implied.
You said something inflammatory and then went in another direction, and I pounced because I tend to respond to posts in chunks as I read them.
I'm now somewhat lost as far as what you're referring to. But as far as afr's comment, again, that was never said nor implied. It went from a "your experience may not be the same as everyone else's", to you and afr inferring "therefore your experiences and opinions are invalid." Which is a pretty illogical jump, especially coming from me. (I.e, if your opinion is invalid, then logically mine is even more so, since I've personally experienced no bigotry in Utah. Obviously that wasn't what I was going for)
I was more summing up what I felt was a major point in our exchange: the pitfalls of saying anything in Utah's defense. As if by saying there's lots of good in Utah, too, because of who I am I must be blind to all the bad, or worse, covering it up. Throughout this whole exchange I've been trying to speak to the point that if you want to have a productive discussion with the people present with knowledge and opinions on the subject, you have to make the discussion one they can and want to participate productively in. I felt you recognized that admirably through the course of the exchange. I wasn't trying to hold it over your head, and I apologize for making you feel that I was.
Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
The thread title is getting a little extreme now. We should probably change the subject before it completes it's mutation.
Posts: 2222 | Registered: Dec 2008
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quote:. I guess what I react to is that blanket condemnation that renders anything I say worse than useless and assumes I'm hopeless because I'm part of the oppressive set.
ALL ANGER OF MARGINALIZED PEOPEL IS JUSTIFIED. CHECK YOUR PRIVILEGE. WHITE ALLY STATUS REVOKED
Thanks for jumping in.
You're welcome, Utahn
Your broad brush actually is quite soft. And I like what it does to my hair. Who knew?
just like a utahn to roll with the punches, utahn
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
Ask not what your buffalo can do for Hatrack, but for what Hatrack can do for your buffalo. I'm thinking grazing rights at a bare minimum.
Posts: 1087 | Registered: Jul 1999
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quote:Originally posted by advice for robots: Well, if you'd unpacked it in your first post like you did in this one, I for one would have responded much differently.
That's my fault, and I apologize for it. I have a tendency to be too brusque and forward, and it's something I need to work on.
If it helps, I understood what you were writing the first time you wrote it.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
From his manifesto, this sounds like something you would write samp:
I AM THE SON
God gave me these photos and I was given a choice. I could sell them and ruin your life in the media, make millions and tell my story or I could hold them in secret and suffer until I reached you. So, I gave my own life to save yours. It’s a bold statement and the next statement is even bolder. It may scare you, but you have to believe in who I am. I know this because I am the Son of God and he sent me to you. Jerry, you and the Cowboys are the Star we will use to Light My Path. I spent 5 years suffering, losing all my possessions, giving the rest away to charity and then living poor. I almost lost my mind until God revealed my true identity. On 7/11/12, 7 days after the God Particle was found in France, I was awoken by God and told to find you, Mr. Jones, to let the world know that God’s Son has risen. My name is Frank Hoover and I am the Son of God. The pictures and other information I provide to you as proof of who I am and why I am here on earth. I am the way, the truth and Jerry, you are my light. I have been sent by God to fix the problems created during the years leading up to my birth. The removal of Gold as the primary backing source of value of the US Dollar. There were three gifts in the bible: Gold, Frank (incense) and Myrrh. The person responsible for your crime is named 24K and born on 8/8/78 (888).
Posts: 891 | Registered: Feb 2010
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posted
And he has a youtube channel full of crazy too. I haven't been this entertained in weeks. Is it bad of me to derive so much joy from someone's insanity?
quote:Originally posted by Wingracer: Not when being serious but some of your jokes sound a lot like that
knock knock
who's there
salmon
salmon who
educators are actually "evil word gods", teaching commercial plunder of Nature. Are you too dumb to know there are 4 different simultaneous 24 hour days within a single rotation of Earth? Greenwich 1 day is a lie. 4 quadrants = 4 corners, and 4 different directions. Each Earth corner rotates own separate 24 hour day. Infinite days is stupidity.Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by advice for robots: With carrot shavings.
So, um, during the family day (the day before graduation) at boot camp, a local ward in San Diego threw a big pot-luck dinner for all the recruits at MCRD. They have a pretty big presence there because it's literally where all the recruits from the western US get processed (my 62 man platoon had 11 Mormons in it), but they invited my entire platoon to come, not just the Mormons. It was pretty awesome, being our first taste of real homemade food in 3 months.
Anyway, there were, I kid you not, 3 different jello dishes. All green. All with carrot shavings. Some had other little things in them (one had those weird little colored marshmallows), but the basics were the same.
None of us were sure if we should eat it, or if it was some sort of sacred food, to only be consumed in Dark Mormon Rituals. I have since heard vague references to "the jello" in Mormon circles, I assume this is one of the many mysteries the Church has successfully kept hidden from prying Gentile eyes.
Seriously, though, what's up with the jello?
Posts: 2222 | Registered: Dec 2008
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posted
Some of us inside the circle don't understand what's up with jello. I blame the oppressive Utah desert sun.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
In adopting and making Jell-O “their” food, Mormons (or Lutherans or Methodists) are making a statement about their identity, accepting all of the food’s positive connotations of family-friendliness, child-centeredness, and domesticity. Outsiders, in contrast, often look in and see Jell-O as a mark of a lack of taste that renders this group strange, immature, and ultimately mockable.
Posts: 95 | Registered: Aug 2011
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posted
I am a single, non Mormon, (or Lutheran or Methodist) woman who likes Jello enough to make it for herself. I don't know what that means but it is a little troubling.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
It's a potluck dish. I'm not defending jello dishes in any way, especially the ones with horrid crunchy veggies suspended inside. Nasty. But it's a people feeder, same as a casserole. You come to a potluck and you bring a dish that's enough for the equivalent of your family. Jello's easy to make and at the same time shows you thought ahead instead of buying rolls at Albertson's on your way to the meal. That said, I think teh jello is also a dying art. What's fashionable at trendy Mormon potlucks these days is fruit salad sans jello.
Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
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