quote: It seemed like it would be a lot cheaper to just hire an expert thief. Of course, I suppose it is possible that the client some how had the dollhouse connection but not the thief connection (though that seems a bit weird too).
Weirder still . . . it seemed like it would be a lot cheaper to just hire an expert midwife.
Posts: 364 | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote: It seemed like it would be a lot cheaper to just hire an expert thief. Of course, I suppose it is possible that the client some how had the dollhouse connection but not the thief connection (though that seems a bit weird too).
Weirder still . . . it seemed like it would be a lot cheaper to just hire an expert midwife.
I figured the guy was a sleazy guy and wanted a midwife with benefits.
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I don't think there was any actual reason for that assumption. I based it on the idea that many of her prior jobs have had romantic angles and a real midwife seems like a much smarter idea. I can come up with other reasons but this one actually was the least unpleasant. If they for some reason needed the birth to be kept untraceable, using a doll would make sense.
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Weren't they up on the top of a mountain or something like that? If you know you're going to be far away from modern medical care, having the best would be even more important.
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The whole point of the dollhouse, I think, is that their "personality composites" are better than any living human being at their specific task/tasks. So to steal something REALLY well guarded or really important to the client, no normal thief would do.
Doesn't really explain the midwife thing. But the midwife with benefits idea made me laugh.
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quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: Weren't they up on the top of a mountain or something like that? If you know you're going to be far away from modern medical care, having the best would be even more important.
Transportation also probably plays a factor. I mean, the Dollhouse owns military-grade helicopters! They could program the best midwife there is and drop her anywhere in the world almost instantly. That's got to be worth something!
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I sort of thought the midwife thing might play into something later. You know, it's put at the beginning to make it look like she has all kinds of engagements, but actually there's a broader point to it that we will find out later.
Maybe just wishful thinking...
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Well, there is a parallel between the conventional midwifery that Echo is engaging in at the beginning of the show and the metaphorical midwifery being performed by the explosives expert helping Echo into reality by looking at and talking about art.
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Personally, I like the idea of someone whose all right with reprogramming people for anything at all, but doesn't want to use a hospital to deliver a child.
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Maybe it was his wife who didn't want to deliver in a hospital, and it made him nervous enough to hire a midwife that was better than the best in the world.
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quote:Originally posted by Abyss: The whole point of the dollhouse, I think, is that their "personality composites" are better than any living human being at their specific task/tasks.
Has that implicitly been stated in the show, that the composites really are better than equivalent "real" experts?
I can believe that some members of the Dollhouse might think so, and some more or less make their jobs based upon that as a sales pitch. But based on what we've seen so far, I don't know that I buy it as anything beyond a sales pitch- much like the two hundred dollar pen that doesn't really do the job any better than the eighty-nine cent Bic jobbie. Sure, both get the job done, but...
What we've seen thus far suggests that, barring unusual circumstances, "actives" will get the job done. But they're also erratic, unpredictable, limited in scope, and the 'House seems peculiarly unable to remove potentially dangerous qualities from the composites.
It doesn't seem right now that a choice between Dollhouse and a regular expert is a choice between best and second best; it seems like it's a choice between the best regularly available and the best personality the Dollhouse happens to have on file.
I can buy the "I need someone who won't remember the details of what they've done" angle, though the direction of the show seems to suggest ultimately that may be a wash as well.
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I think a large part of why Dollhouse has clientele is the secrecy that could be obtained. The last episode, for instance, had a heavy focus on the client making sure that no one knew of what the job was. No one in the Dollhouse administration, and after the job, not even the active.
And that, of course, is assuming everything goes to plan.
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quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang: How would you state something implicitly?
I don't know... If someone were to say something like, "In 98% of violent altercations involving clients, Dollhouse actives were able to contain the situation without injury to clients, versus a rate of 56% with ordinary security companies," that would be something. I realize that given the rather broad range of services Dollhouse's "actives" seem to offer, that would be hard to assess on a large scale. Particularly since a non-trivial amount of their hires seem to amount to acting as an escort agency.
But again, that begs the question- why are all these people turning to Dollhouse, anyway? The missions they've shown us are far from convincing that Dollhouse would be most clients' best choice.
quote:Originally posted by The White Whale: I think a large part of why Dollhouse has clientele is the secrecy that could be obtained. The last episode, for instance, had a heavy focus on the client making sure that no one knew of what the job was. No one in the Dollhouse administration, and after the job, not even the active.
And frankly, that still baffles me a bit. How could most of the support personnel perform their jobs without at least some knowledge of what was being installed in the Active's mind? How could they know there was a higher risk for the active in episode 2, for example, without having some idea what she was going to be doing?
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My take was that it's not normal for nobody to know what was going on, but that the situation in this last episode was a special case.
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quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang: How would you state something implicitly?
I don't know... If someone were to say something like, "In 98% of violent altercations involving clients, Dollhouse actives were able to contain the situation without injury to clients, versus a rate of 56% with ordinary security companies," that would be something.
That would be stating it explicitly. Which was my (nit-picky) point. Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang: How would you state something implicitly?
I don't know... If someone were to say something like, "In 98% of violent altercations involving clients, Dollhouse actives were able to contain the situation without injury to clients, versus a rate of 56% with ordinary security companies," that would be something.
That would be stating it explicitly. Which was my (nit-picky) point.
Good (though nit-pickey) point. I don't think it's implicitly clear, either, though, for many of the same reasons.
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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I like the idea (was a huge fan of the Pretender back in the day), but I feel Echo isn't "becoming" the role full enough.
One obvious lack is accent - she has the exact same "tough girl" accent in every single case so far. Same inflection, exact same way of saying words, etc. Sierra has shown that the actives are quite capable of being programmed with new accents, so how is it good for, say, a midwife to have the same harsh pronunciation as a robber?
In the Pretender Jarod (who was aware of what he was going, and actively worked to change his persona each episode) would adopt a new accent for every pretend. First, it'd be accurate to whatever area of the country he was in, but also, he'd have one accent for doctor like characters - very calm, clear enunciation, steady pitch - and another for gangsters and lowlifes.
I just think they need to figure out how to really change Echo's personality - because putting in new job skills, but leaving the exact same personality for every job isn't really cutting it.
quote:Originally posted by Brinestone: Funny, Clive, I was thinking tonight's episode was my least favorite so far.
Worse than "Stage Freight"? I think tonight's ep contained the strongest arc-related plot progression yet--Dominic's antipathy towards Echo was revealed to run to murderous depths and Ballard spotted Echo.
One thing the show has been doing a lot so far is that early on they introduce an interesting Plot B relating to the Dollhouse that is merely RAISED but never resolved. In tonight's ep, it was Victor's attraction to Sierra in the shower room. A very intriguing development...yet nothing results from it within the episode. We didn't even get a scene in which Victor and Sierra interact outside the shower.
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I loved the teaser for the next episode. I can't remember the exact wording, but it essentially was "Forget everything you know about this show! Now everything changes!"
I thought the episode was okay. I couldn't pay attention to it too closely, but from what I could see it was an infiltration of a Jim Jones camp right? I just kind of wished it would be a more unique premise. :Shrug:
Posts: 1831 | Registered: Jan 2003
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quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang: It seems like the whole idea of the show was to develop a platform to show Dushku's range.
Only no one to into account that she has none.
I think Joss explicitly said that was a factor in some interview, and I agree, I'm not seeing that she's got any. If she'd gotten people out of the burning buliding without resorting to anything sounding remotely like "move your ass", it would have been a million times better. I just didn't see why Esther would have done what she did. But the heroine of a Joss show, sure, she would have done exatly that.
Amy Acker, she's got range. Joss said he did the Illyria thing after seeing her play Lady Macbeth, realizing that she could be as dark as Fred was bright.
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I didn't think this was a great or terrible episode. So far I don't get why people are loving Amy Acker, although I didn't see whatever it was she was in before this.
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I don't see anything particularly interesting about the way she's handling her character, but I'm very interested in the character herself.
quote:If she'd gotten people out of the burning buliding without resorting to anything sounding remotely like "move your ass", it would have been a million times better.
Maybe. I thought she (Dushku) did a fine job as Esther initially, but it was short lived. But the point is that her own characteristics are overpowering the imprint. Esther would not have done as she did, but she isn't Esther.
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A conundrum I realized after watching this episode is that the actress may be hoping to "grow" into the roll over time, improving her acting skills in the process. Except that she's already starting to composite various personalities 5 episodes in, which means we only have those first four episodes to showcase her really "becoming" various other people, and therefore that's where she needs to be at the peak of her acting skills. Conversely, as she amalgamates in the generic "tough girl" persona, it becomes less necessary for her to stretch herself.
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I don't think she'll amalgamate overall. They'll keep giving her opportunities to play different characters, but each one will be like a homework assignment. Get the character down, do some exercises, and then let Caroline show through. Very repertory theatre like.
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
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Hmm... So far, this show is making me want to pretend it never existed so I can go watch Firefly or Dr. Horrible and pretend that Joss Whedon can still do no wrong. (Never seen Buffy, though I've heard things...)
I can't bring myself to care about any of the characters. None of them have really done anything that I can empathize with. Most of them seem like mindless automatons even when they're not supposed to be. Furthermore, nearly every character is a cliche.
Caretaker guy seems pretty smart, capable, and morally sane, but unfortunately, the actor could be replaced with a cardboard cut-out and I don't think anyone would notice.
I think it's up to Alpha to save the series, but I have my doubts even here. So far, it seems like he's just going to be some swiss army-knife all around bad guy with no depth whatsoever. A typical Bond Villain. He's already the boogey-man with all the hot ninja skills, and since last week's episode, he's a hacker too. From the psycho-bow-guy episode, he's methodical and cunning... in short: He's boring.
Posts: 636 | Registered: Apr 2002
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I just watched the first 5 episodes back to back this weekend. I haven't read through most of this thread because it's so long, but skimming through the last page of comments, I have to say that I'm floored at the negativity. I am really enjoying this show and it keeps getting a little better with each episode.
No, I'm not feeling classic sympathy for any one character, but I am intrigued by many of the characters and I do care what happens to them. There aren't "good guys" and "bad guys" and I'm not sure who to root for, but under the premise it doesn't matter.
I'm finding the acting to be decent. I think Boyd is my favorite (Echo's handler). Eliza Dushku is doing a good job with the different personalities and with the underlying idea that there is a core of her in each one. Yes, they're starting to blend together. That's kind of the point. The acting isn't great, but it's good enough for now. I also find that actors grow into their roles over a series and get better at them.
They are doing a good job balancing both the episodic and the long-term story arc, bringing out subtle clues and hints about what is coming. They seem to have an actual plan, which is more than I can say for a lot of shows. They are staying relatively consistent.
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Don't pass any final judgments until this Friday. That's when Joss Whedon gets control back. Until then, it's not really a Whedon show.
Posts: 3295 | Registered: Jun 2004
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Hulu typically is only allowed to show the 5 most recent episodes of any currently running series (although not even that many for some -- House, for instance, has only two new eps up). So when ep. 6 goes up, it'll replace ep. 1.
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I liked the last episode, but I got really annoyed with the ATF AIC went from being basically a true believer in justice to a vigilante with no provocation. When he told the team to let Boyd die (or shoot him if he was inside -- I forget which), it was the equivalent of a D&D alignment shift. Totally out of character, and crappy storytelling.
I will be very surprised if the show takes a great leap forward on ep. 6.
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SPOILERS: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . I could see him faking the "Save me" on the back of the note, but not the "turning on Boyd" bit.
Another thing that I didn't buy was the security guy's behavior with regard to Echo. I mean, I could see him killing her, since he's convinced that she's a budding Alpha, but why would he have shot Mr. Culty? Why not just let him take Echo out? Or if he did shoot, why not mow down both of them and leave the gun so it'd look like a murder/suicide?
quote:I will be very surprised if the show takes a great leap forward on ep. 6.
I'm skeptical, but I'm open to the idea of it improving dramatically with Joss at the helm.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Glenn Arnold: I don't think she'll amalgamate overall. They'll keep giving her opportunities to play different characters, but each one will be like a homework assignment. Get the character down, do some exercises, and then let Caroline show through. Very repertory theatre like.
I have a very bad feeling that Caroline is the daughter of the woman running the Dollhouse.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang: I liked the last episode, but I got really annoyed with the ATF AIC went from being basically a true believer in justice to a vigilante with no provocation. When he told the team to let Boyd die (or shoot him if he was inside -- I forget which), it was the equivalent of a D&D alignment shift. Totally out of character, and crappy storytelling.
I disagree. It struck me as a panic reaction, once he realized that Boyd held his life and career in the palm of his hand.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:I have a very bad feeling that Caroline is the daughter of the woman running the Dollhouse.
That hadn't occurred to me yet, but I don't see why it's necessarily bad. (I don't know that it actually makes much sense - it doesn't do anything explain why the woman is ignoring the "Alpha like" warning signs.)
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I don't hate it, but it isn't stirring up fierce loyalty in me, either.
Right now I have a bad feeling that this is going to be a show that develops more and more holes as it goes on, rather than one that rewards people for remembering minutiae. Shows with holes can be fun, of course, but they also make long-term plot arcs problematic.
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:I have a very bad feeling that Caroline is the daughter of the woman running the Dollhouse.
Based on their interaction in the interview I don't believe this is true. Also, during that interview Caroline says "I was just trying to take my place in the world... Like she always said." The "she" sounds like it would be her mother.
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Sterling: Right now I have a bad feeling that this is going to be a show that develops more and more holes as it goes on, rather than one that rewards people for remembering minutiae. Shows with holes can be fun, of course, but they also make long-term plot arcs problematic.
I didn't even realize that this is the kind of show that I'm attracted to until you said that. Looking back, it seems so obvious. I love series wrought with Cameos, Memes, and inside jokes throughout. The ones that you can go back and watch a dozen times and find something new every time. Things that people can tell you some random fact about and you say "Holy crap, I didn't even notice. I liked it before, but now..." Stories that are so meticulously planned out that nothing is an accident and their are no holes. This is why Fight Club is still my favorite movie of all time.
Posts: 636 | Registered: Apr 2002
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I am enjoying the show. The only thing that is bothering me, besides Echo always returning to be a badass, is that I don't see the motive for the FBI agent who is tracking The Dollhouse.
I know he is now getting clues, but his obsession started before the clues. Unless they hint at how he was personally affected by the Dollhouse, I just don't buy his character.
Posts: 2445 | Registered: Oct 2004
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I'm discovering that my biggest problem with Dollhouse is that Caroline is pretty much Faith in a polo shirt. I'm really turned off by the possibility that Echo's original personality is going to become more prominent.
I also really wish the show would focus more on the characters and less on the "mission of the week." I have high hopes since it seems like alot of Joss' series start off like this, so hopefully episode 6 will really be the game-changer that the show needs. I'm really intrigued by Boyd and Topher and FBI-neighbor-girl. And I'm enjoying Sierra's and Victor's performances as well. I want to see more of all of them.
I have to say, I was really starting to think that Joss was improving on his leads. I've always preferred his secondary cast of characters but completely fell in love with Mal and Dr. Horrible. I never thought I'd see the day when Joss would create a main protagonist more annoying than Buffy.
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I didn't even realize that this is the kind of show that I'm attracted to until you said that. Looking back, it seems so obvious. I love series wrought with Cameos, Memes, and inside jokes throughout. The ones that you can go back and watch a dozen times and find something new every time. Things that people can tell you some random fact about and you say "Holy crap, I didn't even notice. I liked it before, but now..." Stories that are so meticulously planned out that nothing is an accident and their are no holes. This is why Fight Club is still my favorite movie of all time.
