posted
Oh, I don't necessarily mean that he was co-opted into the Dollhouse against his will. When he started making inquiries, he might have been given a choice the same way that the rest of the Actives were. Remember, Victor said that if the Dollhouse existed, he'd sign up.
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posted
I don't know if you've watched a lot of Whedon's stuff, but I've come to learn that unless there is clear and irrefutable evidence in front of me, I don't assume anything. And sometimes not even then (e.g. A few times in the Buffy opening credits, characters appeared that were clearly not intended to be main characters. They were there to make me think they were main characters, so when something latter happens to them, I'm extra flustered and flabbergasted.)
For example, in this last episode, when Topher was distracted by Echo's handler while he was creating her new personality, he was away from his computer and the disk for a few minutes. I had the suspicion that something was up. There was no real need for Topher to leave the room. And Lo! Echo had some extra programming!
So, since there's a whole lot about Victor that I haven't seen with my own eyes, I'm not willing to say anything about how or why he became an Active.
Posts: 1711 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
Indeed. I am about 80% certain that Topher wrote the message himself, and sent away his assistant to a mindless errand and bodily moved Boyd far away from his computer in order to keep either of them from seeing what he was doing.
The 20% doubt comes from the fact that Echo's message says the programmer didn't know about it, or something. Topher might have been hiding his tracks, but that opens it up for something different. Darn you, Joss!
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It's clear that we're being led to suspect the assistant, but that alone is reason for me to suspect it'll actually end up being Topher.
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quote:Remember, Victor said that if the Dollhouse existed, he'd sign up.
I think he was already an active when he said that; he said it in the scene immediately before he was wiped.
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quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang: It was either Topher or his assistant.
It's clear that we're being led to suspect the assistant, but that alone is reason for me to suspect it'll actually end up being Topher.
But it's so simple. All you have to do is divine from what you know of Joss--is he the sort of writer who would put the responsibility for Echo's message into The Dollhouse's hands, or into its enemies?
Now, a clever writer would put the responsibility for the message into The Dollhouse's hands, because he would know that only a great fool would reach for the obvious answer. You are not a great fool, so you can clearly cannnot choose the Dollhouse as the responsible party. But Joss must have known you were not a great fool--he would have counted on it--so you can clearly not choose Alpha as the responsible party.
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quote:It's clear that we're being led to suspect the assistant, but that alone is reason for me to suspect it'll actually end up being Topher.
Really? I went back and watched that scene more than once, and I don't think we're supposed to suspect anybody.
If I were to guess, I'd guess the head lady.
I'm basing that on the fact that we've only seen three people who have the skills to put together a wipe: Topher, the assistant, and Alpha. And I don't consider it likely that Alpha was able to access the drive inside the Dollhouse and modify it.
So that leaves Topher and the assistant. The assistant has been set up as a talented, but underused (and hence frustrated) member of the technical team. I also get the sense that she's a little more moral than Topher.
Additionally, Echo said that the extra stuff was done without the programmer's awareness. I'm assuming she was telling the truth, because if it was Topher there's no need to smokescreen Ballard like that. He has no clue who the programmer is.
Finally, I'm pretty sure Topher's a True Believer and not likely to want to bring the whole thing crashing down.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang: [QB]I'm basing that on the fact that we've only seen three people who have the skills to put together a wipe: Topher, the assistant, and Alpha. And I don't consider it likely that Alpha was able to access the drive inside the Dollhouse and modify it.
I could believe that Alpha has their network hacked, and can exploit their system in such a way as to edit the personality engram remotely. I could also believe that the assistant is actually Alpha's creature (as I suspect the guy who went Most Dangerous Game on Echo in an early episode was).
It's possible that it isn't Alpha, though, but some other third party. We're being led to believe that it's Alpha, I think, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it is.
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posted
Im pretty sure it wasnt Topher. When he puts the disk into the slot and Boyd calls him outside the shot lingers on the door beside his desk for a moment and its closed. When he comes back though its open.
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quote:Im pretty sure it wasnt Topher. When he puts the disk into the slot and Boyd calls him outside the shot lingers on the door beside his desk for a moment and its closed. When he comes back though its open.
I didn't notice that I'll have to watch it again. I was sure when Topher got called away that someone had done something to the disk. I was expecting it to be gone, but when it was still there I wondered if someone had messed with it. I was not expecting that to be the modification though.
I'd be willing to go with Topher sticking it in, it seems almost too obvious for Joss. Though I think we who know Joss may be over thinking this...
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quote:Originally posted by Damien.m: Im pretty sure it wasnt Topher. When he puts the disk into the slot and Boyd calls him outside the shot lingers on the door beside his desk for a moment and its closed. When he comes back though its open.
Good catch. There's also ominous music at that same point.
I'm not convinced it's his assistant though.
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posted
The most recent episode was the first that seemed to belong to a show that was definitely worth the time investment. I hope it's not an anomaly.
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Damien.m: Im pretty sure it wasnt Topher. When he puts the disk into the slot and Boyd calls him outside the shot lingers on the door beside his desk for a moment and its closed. When he comes back though its open.
Good catch. There's also ominous music at that same point.
Keep in mind that this is Joss we're talking about. He specifically enjoys using signals that have become nearly universal in film to lead his audience off track. An example from Firefly (minor spoiler from the pilot here) would be his shot of Kaylee's hand falling, limp, when she's lying in the bed in the medical bay. That type of shot is usually used to signal that someone has died, and Joss uses it to create a belief on his audience's part that Kaylee has done just that. Because of that, we don't even stop to consider the possibility that Mal is lying when he tells Simon that she's dead. We've seen enough of the characters to begin to become attached to them at this point, so when we're watching Simon make his way to the medical bay at a dead run we share in some bit of what he's feeling. And when the shot cuts from Kaylee in bed, perfectly fine, to Mal and the rest of the crew laughing, in a way we're being laughed at. Joss loves confounding expectations. Given that, a lingering shot and ominous music don't necessarily mean anything. You could be right in thinking that it means what it does, but it could easily be a setup on Joss's part. I suspect that it is.
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quote:Originally posted by Noemon: Given that, a lingering shot and ominous music don't necessarily mean anything.
No, but a door being closed in an supposedly empty office and then moments later being open certainly means something. I'm sure it wasn't a blooper.
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I agree that that does increase the likelihood of it being someone other than Topher (and good catch with that one, by the way, Damien). I'm definitely going to be having a lot of fun trying to figure it out.
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quote:Originally posted by Damien.m: Im pretty sure it wasnt Topher. When he puts the disk into the slot and Boyd calls him outside the shot lingers on the door beside his desk for a moment and its closed. When he comes back though its open.
Woah. It took me a while to find that, but yeah, you're right.
I never would have noticed that on my own.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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This was the first episode where I could understand paying an obscene amount of money for a programmable person. The other assignments seemed like they'd be cheaper to just hire a real person. But this one, I can understand.
Good ep. I enjoyed the first five more than most people, apparently, but this one felt like Joss.
Posts: 2849 | Registered: Feb 2002
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Some of the assignments were iffy, but not all. I definitely failed to understand why you'd pay a lot of money for a programmable midwife/labor coach, but that's the only one that really struck me as a HUH?
Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005
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A blogger I read concludes a review of "Man on the Street" by suggesting the show would have been less absurd if it was set in a future in which Dollhouse technology is common and accepted.
What I find problematic is that apparently a lot of people know about the Dollhouse. What's to stop any of them from ratting them out?
Maybe customers of the Dollhouse have to accept mental protocols that makes tattling impossible?
Posts: 532 | Registered: Feb 2009
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There may be one other person capable of programing the disk.
Echo.
What do we know of Echo?
She wants to help the world. She has a connection to the boss lady hinted at during the very first scene of the first show. She has the ability to remember some things from her wipes--like the gesture from the Dangerous Game guy. Alpha has a special purpose and interest in her. She alone of all the actives was bypassed by Alpha's rampage.
We believe that the root personality that is left from the wipe is the doll personality. On top of that personality others are placed. But what if echo had herself layered so that underneath the root personality is a real, or at least another spy personality. It is a sleeper like from this episode.
When activated she does things like building a cell, reporting that a certain doll cries at night, etc.
This sleeper also gives her extra skills she uses to complete her missions safely, and allows her to remember some of her missions.
So she remembers that agent x tried to kill her, and the next episode agent x is killed. She gets her way.
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quote:So she remembers that agent x tried to kill her, and the next episode agent x is killed. She gets her way.
When did he try to kill her? I remember blond security guy trying to kill her (in the dumbest way possible), but how did the guy that died to that?
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quote:We believe that the root personality that is left from the wipe is the doll personality. On top of that personality others are placed. But what if echo had herself layered so that underneath the root personality is a real, or at least another spy personality. It is a sleeper like from this episode.
And sometimes there is a third, even deeper layer, and that one is the same as the top, surface one. Like with pie.
Posts: 1261 | Registered: Apr 2004
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The doll that is dating the agent brought up a question for me. For a long term assignment, wouldn't the agent become less predictable? The experiences the woman has will change her. So, right now, she loves the agent, but what about if he does x? Dolls have programmed personalities, but they can still make decisions. The longer they are away, the more those decisions could differ from the plan.
Posts: 2223 | Registered: Mar 2008
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My guess is Millie is actually Millie -- the Dollhouse merely imprinted her with triggerable combat skills and stuff like that. But unless she's activated she's herself, and thus not at risk.
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Well, hopefully they will answer these questions eventually. The last episode was much better then the earlier ones, so maybe there is reason to hope. The first ones were watchable, but the 6th was just so much better. I would have made that one the first episode personally.
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But didn't a lot of the twists depend on some of the knowledge of the characters that the first five episodes gave? Like Millie/Ballard, Boyd's concern for Echo, and the Echo/Victor/Sierra dynamic?
I'd like to hear someone who hasn't seen any episodes thinks of the sixth.
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posted
I've asked a couple of friends who haven't seen episodes 1-5 to give episode 6 a try. If either of them do so, I'll let you know what they thought of it.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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Actually I watched episode 6 as my first b/c of how hulu organizes them. It felt pretty whirlwind. The tv segments made it feel like a pilot ep. I was wondering why agent Ballard was telling his neighbor all that (still am). I got teary listening to the Internet guy's story. It did work as a first episode, though.
Posts: 1261 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
So what did people think of last nights episode? I just got a chance to watch it on Hulu now. I'm still processing it, right now my only clear thought is that: Joss is baaackkk! Posts: 3295 | Registered: Jun 2004
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My main thought was from the next week episode- that seems way, way too fast. I hope there is more to Echo's story then what we have seen.
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That's exactly what I thought! The episode was interesting, and I was pleased that they got the new guy for the Dollhouse, but yeah, Echo's backstory wasn't very substantial.
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quote:Originally posted by Alcon: So what did people think of last nights episode? I just got a chance to watch it on Hulu now. I'm still processing it, right now my only clear thought is that: Joss is baaackkk!
Seriously?
I thought it was a trainwreck. Unbelievable and poorly constructed through and through. The flashbacks were horribly written and acted. It made no sense for them to be presented the way they were.
Echo's character made no sense. The guy going along with her made no sense. The dialog was unbelievable and them thinking that the drug wouldn't affect the actives was incredibly dumb. Heck, having Topher as their go to guy was incredibly dumb.
I thought it was an awkward, poorly written and plotted episode with (with some exceptions, Victor and Boyd for example) some very flat acting.
To me, it was the worst episode so far and the only reason I sat through the first 4 was because of Joss.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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So far, I thought episode 5 was very good, but the best I can say for the show is that it got me watching the immensely better Pretender on hulu.
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