quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: So far, I thought episode 5 was very good, but the best I can say for the show is that it got me watching the immensely better Pretender on hulu.
I don't know if you saw my post earlier in this thread, but it's my opinion that Dollhouse is pretty much a dumbed-down, heartless version of the Pretender.
I mean, the Pretender does suffer from numerous mid-90s tv cliches (though they were considered "cutting edge" back then, and we only think of them as cliches because they've been used to death since), but it's much smarter and uses real psychology to create their pretender.
In the Pretender, every episode you get to see clips of Sydney conditioning Jared with years of simulations, you get to see Jared speed-reading textbooks and conditioning himself for each profession, and everything is completely conceivable. In fact, the heart of the show is about what makes us who we are, why we define ourselves by profession, personality, family, etc.
In Dollhouse they just "program" their actives with a funny brain zapper device and never bother to explain any of it except with made up techno babble.
Also, the Pretender had a heart. Even the most vile, evil characters (see Mr. Reins) are given depth, and you can even sympathize with them. Except for Echo's protector, all of the Dollhouse seem to be pretty shallow, evil people with NO real complexity, or even outside relationships, apparently. (that's one thing the Pretender did well - everyone had a family and social life outside of the Centre, and sometimes they'd mingle. See Broots and his daughter, for example)
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quote: In fact, the heart of the show is about what makes us who we are, why we define ourselves by profession, personality, family, etc.
This is one of the bits that I felt is really lacking from Dollhouse. It's supposed to be about identity, but this isn't really in the show at all. There's no exploration of this, even among the Actives, let alone the people outside them. It's all about the techo-babble zapping.
For example, Echo's part in this last story. She was supposed to be zapped with this somewhat reserved (but still sexy dressed...she must always be wearing something sexy) personality who then gets bleed through from Caroline. The way I would have written this is to have her as a reserved, passive person who has something like a post-hypnotic impulse. She feels really driven towards this goal, but the goal and even the feeling are alien to her.
Instead, they went with her no longer having any discernible personality and have her make plot important semi-amnesiatic statements that are accepted without any sort of realistic reaction by the personality-less uncharacter she runs into. You can't explore identity when you are working with walking, talking plot points instead of people.
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quote: - posted March 28, 2009 01:14 PM Profile for MrSquicky Email MrSquicky Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote
quote:Originally posted by Alcon: So what did people think of last nights episode? I just got a chance to watch it on Hulu now. I'm still processing it, right now my only clear thought is that: Joss is baaackkk! [Smile]
Seriously?
I thought it was a trainwreck. Unbelievable and poorly constructed through and through. The flashbacks were horribly written and acted. It made no sense for them to be presented the way they were.
Yes, seriously. It wasn't perfect. But it was Joss. The dialog, the pacing, the little teasers and hints and the misdirection. It was Joss.
I, also, completely disagree with you that it was poorly acted, written or plotted. And I think Dollhouse has a heart more and more. We're getting hints of motives other than profit behind the Dollhouse, and it's leaders. The characters at the top aren't just flat evil, as we've seen this episode. If any of it seemed forced, it may have been because Joss had to undo some of the damage done when control was taken from him. Also that wasn't all their was to Echo's backstory. Ms. Dewitt said they'd been dancing this dance for two years. That was just the beginning of the dance. We still have two more years of Echo being at war with the Dollhouse to learn about.
Also what is the research they are doing that apparently the Dollhouse is funding? I don't think you were watching the episode closely enough, and I think you'd already decided to hate it before you watched. If you've already decided you don't buy a plot or character before you watch something then of course it's going to seem full of holes and like flat acting.
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I just finished watching last night's episode -- worst so far. It was confusing, poorly acted, poorly written....the flashbacks were terrible and I still can't honestly say I get who Caroline was and why she agreed to become a doll. What made her think the company was evil? She just kept saying they were evil but with no cause. They could have done MUCH better with that...it was something I was very curious about from the beginning and they flubbed it big time.
The drug was a joke and I don't think a single actor really pulled off being high on it. They just acted silly.
I sure hope last night's episode was a fluke, but unfortunately it's a fluke that included a bit of back story they can't take back now.
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How does Echo catch Sam in the open? Sam is 6'3", built like a lion in sneakers, and Echo is wearing impossible shoes. I think I hate the shoes the most. I'm tired of chick spies in heels. She is supposed to be like a "ninja" wearing a pair of clacky pumps. It's a joke. Ms. Dewitt is probably the only reason I'm still watching the show. I want something to overtly happen between her and the security chief, or even something crazy to happen like we find out that she is a doll and he is her handler. They have decent chemistry. I like it when the Victor is made to act Russian. It's funny, and maybe I want to see some of Caroline in her two years as domestic terrorist against Rossum, and Alpha. I want my Reaver, and I want to know why he didn't kill Amy Acker's character, and most of all, I expect sensible shoes in all action scenes.
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No, she was supposed to be a tarted-up "innocent" girl in lace stockings and pumps that could be taught to be naughty by the client. She went off on her own, against programming (but still in the outfit) to raid the lab, and didn't have a pair of sneaks handy. Doesn't explain how she managed to catch Sam, though, since she was staggering along and he was presumably fit. I assumed he was trying to go slow and play it cool so as not to draw attention to himself as he walked out of the heavily guarded building they just snuck into.
I was much more bothered by how she pointed at the red pipe in the tunnel and stressed how they followed that, and then turned to the left and there was the ladder they needed. Good thing that red pipe was there! They'd have been stumbling around that 8 feet of tunnel for hours!
What I liked about the show: most of it. I liked getting some backstory, and don't mind that she was raging against the company without real reason (although, knowing Joss, she probably has some sort of connection to the company like her parents are involved or something and doesn't want to admit it). Honestly, she sounded like some of the more clueless activists I've known, mad at the big companies for being, essentially, big companies. But I'll bet she learned a lot more about them in those missing two years.
I liked finally seeing something besides stiff Brit coming from Adele (whom I've had very little reason to like until now), and Dominic's apology surprised me. I liked finding out which regulars were actives and which weren't (although the doctor wasn't around, so we still don't know for sure about her). I liked the little glimpse of what I think Victor was before his dollness; would an Active be sent to the war? Or was that what he was before, and did something horrible happen there that he wanted to forget? And I liked the piano.
And I've seen a screener of next week's episode, and... whouf. We're well away from the "job of the week" episodes.
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Mostly, I just thought this episode was silly. And, since I was fairly tired when I watched it, it didn't do a very good job of keeping me awake.
I'm still debating whether I'm going to re-watch it to pick up anything I missed. I probably won't.
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I watched this one on my own, because after the last episode my spouse said, "I have a negative interest in watching more of it, which means I wish I could go back and forget I ever watched any of it."
*sigh*
I actually kind of enjoyed this ep, though. I've given up on ever caring about Caroline as a person distinct from Echo, though. It was just fun to watch people act silly and drunk.
This show is doomed, isn't it?
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If you had accepted since the beginning the fact that it was doomed because (1) Joss was involved with it, and (2) it aired on FOX's "Friday night death slot", it's much easier to bear.
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But if Joss' shows were canceled based on the first half of a season, we wouldn't have Buffy of Angel. And both Buffy and Angel got better in the second season and beyond.
And yes, I'm quite aware of the Firefly Exception.
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Did anyone else find it disconcerting how Echo didn't take the vial of Green Stuff from Sam's bag after Boyd came to get her? Instead, they (presumably) left him lying there on a ground to do whatever he pleased with the vial once he got back up. I don't know; maybe they rounded him up directly after that and just didn't feel the need to show it. I suppose one could say that him being interviewed to be a Doll was a sign that he had given up, but I don't like that there was no closure on that missing Vial.
Truth be told, I haven't been impressed by ANYONE'S acting in this show so far, least of all the woman that plays Echo (Amy Ackler I think I heard?). Well... I suppose I like Ballard, but that's probably bias left over from BSG.
I was just a tad disappointed to find out that Dewitt and Topher weren't actives. A big huge conspiracy world where you suspect people at every level seems much more interesting at a glance. I suppose it isn't yet out of reach though. I'll keep my fingers crossed.
This episode reminded me again of why I hate activists and hippies. To quote a friend of mine: "I would condone the killing of every puppy, kitten and baby rabbit born this month if it meant that this aspirin got rid of my headache one minute faster." I don't respect people who humanize animals... If Caroline's missing two years don't involve a reality check at some point, then I will personally be rooting for the Dollhouse and their conspiracy over her getting her personality back a second before her five year contract is up.
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quote:Originally posted by dantesparadigm: They were testing on babies too, that's kind of pushing it.
Yeap, they were, but Caroline's outrage was towards animal testing. Blind luck made it that her "theory" ("if they're doing this on animals, who knows what else they're doing") proved true with this particular company, but it's a leap of reasoning based on nothing. Yes, they're evil, but Caroline was quite dumb too. In a way, I'm ok with this; having a "hero activist" turned into a doll would have seemed too much like a movie plot; a silly girl turned into a doll works just fine in "reality", although I expect that when she snaps out of it she'll feel even more righteous about stopping all animal testing. I'd like the series to show that part too. Posts: 4519 | Registered: Sep 2003
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Blind luck and people who not only don't shut down or password protect their computers, but also leave their "Hey, we're testing stuff on babies!!!" screen saver running.
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syl, Don't you bad mouth Amy Acker. Amy Acker is doing a great job as the doctor. I think she'd be doing even more for the show as Echo, but that role went to Elisa Dushku.
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It it not make much sense that the drug thief, while he was recovering from being all doped up, was talking about conspiracy theories with Echo about the Big Bad Corp testing on people? He knew exactly what was going on, but why lie to Echo, a random tripping gal?
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Ooo Amy Acker WOULD have made a better Echo! Too bad it was Elisa's project.
And yeah, "She's a good person because she cares about animals" trope annoys the hell out of me too.
Maybe, when Echo wakes up, she'll realize her life would have been better spent fighting for humans rather than little balls of fur that poop where they eat.
BTW, do you think they're going to find a safe full of their old memories? Are they going to be willing to imprint themselves with their old personalities, even though that would mean the death of who they are now?
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I still can't see that Eliza Dushku is playing different characters. At most I see two: doll (religious fanatic, innocent girl) and tough girl.
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She did an excellent Buffy when she switched bodies with her. I thought she did a much better Buffy than SMG did Faith.
That said, I hate the animal nut thing. It makes me glad that she got caught, which I'm sure wasn't Joss's intention.
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I seem to see this show slightly differently from how many people seem to be seeing it.
For me, Caroline is mostly dead. It is Echo I care about and there is, in my opinion, a distinct Echo-personality, just as there is a Sierra and a Victor. They may be being used but as an outsider I can have the same empathy for them that Boyd and Claire and even Topher and the Leader Lady have.
My opinion of Caroline is not that she was supposed to be some sort of heroine we're going to go back to; that's not the point of the animals. Echo is the heroine. Caroline is, a bit like Buffy, someone who--through some mild talents--ended up mixed up in something huge. The point of the animals is to show us partly who Caroline was. There are people who empathize with non-human creatures to an extent to call the people who work on them to call them evil. It was her boyfriend who really was interested in the true evil. I think Caroline is supposed to have been a reasonably ordinary, happy, quite shallow but intelligent and caring person. She becomes the bitter, dark person we saw at the very beginning of the series over the two years in which the Rossum corporation is chasing her.
The lab animals thing plays into this. Caroline had empathy for caged animals being used, and that is precisely what she is. I guess if you have difficulty feeling empathy for non-human animals you might have difficulty feeling empathy for the dolls because they are not human either, really. Or they as human as babies are.
Despite this, it is with the dolls that my sympathy lies and I have no problem following Echo from week to week whether she remembers herself or not. I'm not constantly searching for Caroline in her, it's Echo that I'm interested in. And no, Dushku isn't the best actress, but I don't dislike her.
I'm also okay with the show having less conspiracy theories than Lost. I like that people are people, rather than everyone being some crazy secret. I like that things are mostly what they seem.
That said, the show doesn't quite hang together and it's likely partly because the first five episodes seemed to be on a completely different wavelength. The relationship between Boyd and Millie just kind of suddenly appeared, whereas obviously it was supposed to be always plausible.
Basically, what Chris B. said.
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quote:"I would condone the killing of every puppy, kitten and baby rabbit born this month if it meant that this aspirin got rid of my headache one minute faster."
Boy, no flies on you! When animals are subjected to intense pain and blindness so your mascara can make your eyelashes that much more luscious, they deserve protection. And if you really believe your friends statement, you don't.
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I'm as anti-logic-free-environmentalism as the next conservative attendee a liberal ivy league, but I'd deal with a one minute migraine if it meant a cute little bunny's life. Especially if it was my bunny's.
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You you think there's any moral difference between killing cute little bunnies to alleviate hunger (which I do) and killing them to alleviate pain?
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I am ok with drug testing, but not mascara. Looking pretty isn't worth a bunny's life, but being migraine free, that's worth several bunnies. A normal headache may or may not be worth it.
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Edit: I suppose it doesn't help to be terse. I can accept medical testing on animals. I'm not going to put an animal's life before a human's, whether that means killing it for food or in order to cure disease. What I do demand is ethics, that animals not be killed needlessly. If you are killing rabbits for fun, that is not a purposeful act, and the net result is negative. If animals are being tested on and the result isn't a moral positive, say cosmetics or ED meds, then there is a net negative.
Posts: 959 | Registered: Oct 2005
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I'm actually not THAT opposed to killing a few bunnies (or less cute creatureS) to produce better medicine so long as it was done humanely. In fact, that would be far more ethical than the hideous way most food is created. However, Caroline was worried specifically about cruel treatment, not killing, so I'd say it was still a valid criticism.
That said, I think it's pretty stupid to be worrying about one company doing medical tests when there's the entire factory farm industry out there. If the show was about Caroline as she was depicted last episode, I wouldn't be watching it. I hope we find out that she had better reasons than that, or we get a flashback where someone points out how silly she was.
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Also, does it make any difference when you take into account the fact that I, along with the vast majority of non-vegetarian Americans, eat quite a bit more meat than my body needs? In a sense, I didn't really kill that bunny to alleviate hunger -- I did it to gain pleasure.
Of course, the main differences between that and any meal with chicken or beef is that I killed the animal I ate directly instead of paying somebody else to do it, and the animal I killed was cute.
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If something requiring rabbits made my migraines go away, I would support it in a heartbeat. (Barring the improbable result that they'd go extinct, but I don't think that's a serious danger for rabbits.) I don't buy cosmetics tested on animals, because I don't believe testing is necessary. I'm a vegetarian, as well, though moral reasons aren't my main motivation in that.
But medical testing? As long as the animals are kept as humanely as possible, I'm okay with that.
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No, it's not just a metaphor. Clearly, Joss Whedon is one of these people who has empathy for animals.
I'm a meat eater and I don't mind testing done on animals, but I feel empathy for a lot of creatures and even non-creatures so it's not a mental leap for me to understand someone wanting to set test animals free.
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The topic is far too complex to outline in a single post (at least, if I intend to put it into proper context, which I always at least TRY to do), and besides that, I didn't intend to derail this thread so far. I should really learn to better rein in my Rants, lol.
quote:Don't you bad mouth Amy Acker. Amy Acker is doing a great job as the doctor. I think she'd be doing even more for the show as Echo, but that role went to Elisa Dushku.
I'm not good with names. I meant Elisa Dushku. Doc seems pretty good by my standards so far.
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I'm glad that Amy Acker isn't (or at least doesn't seem, it's hard to tell under the lab jacket) as skinny as she was in Angel. In Buffy, I loved any episode with Alyson Hannigan because first, she's beautiful, and second, I liked her character. In Angel, I love any episode with Fred because she's beautiful (but too skinny!) and I like her character.
Now in Dollhouse, she's still beautiful, I like her new character, AND she's not shockingly skinny.
Also, I just watched the Angel episode where Willow comes to save the day. An episode with Willow and Fred!? Awesome.
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Episode 6 took the show to a different level... but I don't think Episode 7 really lived up to it. Episode 8 tried harder, but I still don't think I've found the show's "soul" so to speak.
I'm starting to get attached to some characters... but those are Victor, Sierra, and Mellie more than anyone else. Probably the doctor and the fbi agent are the next two on the list.
I just can't bring myself to care as much about Echo, Boyd, Topher, the head of security, or the head of the dollhouse.
I'm reminded of early seasons of Buffy, I think. I didn't care about Buffy at all... and I didn't care much about Angel, either (until later). Even in Angel, I cared more about Fred, Gunn, Spike and Wesley than I ever did about Angel, Cordelia, or Connor.
I wonder if Joss just doesn't write main characters well. In Firefly, the main character was the ship, really, so that allowed everyone to be support - which is probably why it was his best show.
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One thing to ponder from the current episode: Boyd says: "Echo, she wanted to free us all". Interesting wording. I still don't understand Boyd's motivation for doing what he does though, unless he's really the cover agent trying to bring this thing down. In which case he's waaay too obvious; although not to the Dollhouse bosses, it seems...
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Part of the problem is that I don't see what a lot of them are doing.
Sierra's story is the most compelling, right now - she turned a guy down, and he used his power and influence to get her into the Dollhouse, where he could have her whenever he wanted. That's pretty f'ed up.
Victor is also somewhat interesting, as it looks like he is former military.
Echo's story as a PETA chick who wants to take down a corporation just doesn't carry much weight.
With Wolfram & Hart, you always got the impression that there were far greater powers at work... and they were referenced regularly. The operatives Angel, et al, dealt with were always smaller pieces of the puzzle. I think I need to see more of that... more "these people are scary, and this is why".
I mean I want to see a Wolfram & Hart or Blue Sun emerge, but it just hasn't happened yet.
I think I need to see Echo/Caroline escape and find Ballard - and then have the Dollhouse actives become the "bad guys" that are after them. I need deeper purpose, I think.
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The problem may be in the casting. I don't think Dushku has the chops for the part, and she may be bringing everyone down. The scripts are mediocre, in my opinion, but the idea and the plotting are fine. I don't think the idea is any better or worse than Lost, but the actors in Lost are far superior. Every time Dushku opens her mouth, I hear "whiny chick." If the women who play Sun or Juliet or even Kate or Cassidy were substituted in, the show would be much, much better. Marguerite Moreau would have made and excellent Echo. The people holding up the show are the women playing DeWitt and Amy Acker. Ballard isn't bad, but not great either. The same can be said of Victor. The Handler is so so, but emotionally forgettable. By now, I should care why he quit the force, but I don't.
posted
I'd throw Sierra in there, too. She is very good, and seems to be quite versatile.
I don't think Dushku is that great, myself, but a better actress would still ahve to compete with a poorly written main character (imo).
It keeps looking like it's going to give me more... but ends up giving me just short of what I want.
I think they need to show me why the Dollhouse is so evil. Echo's jobs have been so very, very tame... when I'd imagine there are plenty of sickos out there like the guy who put Sierra in the dollhouse. I think we need to see more of that to make us more sympathetic to the actives.
And then, we need to be shown either a) that the people working in the Dollhouse are equally evil, or b) why we should have any sympathy for their part in a human slave trade.
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I think the point is that what makes the Dollhouse "evil" is something inherent in the process, and that the people who work there are exactly as human as anyone else. You don't need to be a monster to be complicit in a bad job.
I thought the episode started out with some bad dialogue but got better. By the time it ended I thought it was pretty good.
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"You don't need to be a monster to be complicit in a bad job."
You're right. But "people in a bad job" just isn't as compelling.
Like I said, I want Wolfram & Hart. I want Blue Sun. Joss knows how to write scary, evil nigh-omnipotent companies. He just isn't doing that here. There are hints, but it's just not there.
Closest we got was the confrontation with Sierra and Nolan, where the darker side of what the Dollhouse does came out a bit more.
It's not all midwifery and dates for lonely billionaires (even perfect dates that end up like "Most Dangerous Game"... which we later saw was not sanctioned by the Dollhouse) - there's real darkness there. Human slavery, deviant sexual acts, pyschological darkness on the part of the "customers", etc.
That needs to come out more.
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I'm a couple weeks behind, so I'm trying not to spoil myself and haven't read all the comments. But we just watched Man on the Street, and I was really disappointed to find out that the neighbor girl was an active. My husband had just finished saying he had a feeling she was one of them, and I had argued that I didn't think she was - and hoped she wasn't - because what this show needs is one ordinary person, someone who isn't connected with the dollhouse in any way. And then came the lovely little scene with the answering machine.
<sigh>
I will agree with FlyingCow - hubby and I were just discussing how we were starting to actually have some sympathy for and care about the actives, but somehow it's really only for Victor and Sierra. There's still nothing really there to care about in Echo.
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I've liked most of the episodes so far, and have liked most of the character development I've seen. I may not care so much about some of the characters, but I am curious to see more of the why and how Topher, Boyd, Adelle, and Claire wound up in the Dollhouse. I'm hoping that Joss has some backstory for them, because it seems like Boyd and Claire don't really want to be in the Dollhouse. Adelle I'm sure has her reasons, and Topher might just have the backstory of the genius scientist guy who follows wherever his ability gets him, but I'm hoping it is much more than that.
I liked this week's episode. There weren't any gigantic loose ends, all of the characters seemed to be consistent with their characterizations so far, and I thought in general it was a compelling story. I'm falling in love with Amy Acker again. She seems to be the most compassionate character so far, and it was interesting to hear her tell Caroline that "they're watching" and "I'm not your friend in here, Echo. I'm sorry, I can't help you." And then she proceeds to 'help' Mike, the fifth active.
quote:...there's real darkness there
I agree. There are a lot of moral issues with the Dollhouse that Topher, Adelle, Boyd, and the other operators need to have rationalizations for. Do they really believe that they are doing good works? Or have they also been coerced into taking this job? There's also the whole issue with Alpha (and I'm exited about how Alan Tudyk plays the character).
So I'm looking forward every Friday (well, Saturdays with Hulu) to watching the show. I hope they don't cancel it, being that it is one of the only interesting (and original) shows on television.
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Echo hasn't really connected with me, but I like Sierra and Victor as well as the dr. But I am still willing to keep watching.
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The ending tonight makes me like Caroline's character alittle more. I mean, I hate the person she is, but I feel like Joss has some sort of hand on her. I don't think Caroline is someone we should want to cheer on. She's a stupid, stupid girl. Here she was wanting to lead a bunch of brain-wiped "children" out into the big bad world. She's like the worst PETA person ever. Like the idiots at the beginning of "28 Days Later." No matter how cute the lab monkey is, don't go opening the cage door and let it run free.
And yet, I'm still not really caring about Echo/Caroline. I like everyone else BUT her. Ballard used to annoy me but he's growing on me. I really liked Boyd and wish they'd do more with him, but I expect they will later.
Topher is still the highlight for me with Victor and DeWitt tied for second.
Posts: 1733 | Registered: Apr 2005
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I had an interesting thought, that likely won't happen, but...
Imagine if Ballard finds Echo on an engagement, and somehow manages to get her away from Boyd. He breaks through enough for her to get another couple of snippets of her memory, and follows him.
Ballard and Echo go on the run from the Dollhouse, Boyd ends up getting "suspended" and strikes out on his own to find them, and the Dollhouse itself mobilizes to track them down - turning our "sympathetic" actives into the enemy.
Alpha makes contact, and they find there's an underground resistance, that they are trying to put together the loose ends and find the people behind the whole thing before going public... because otherwise those most responsible would disappear/escape.
It would be Ballard/Echo/Alpha and others "in the know" working against the Dollhouse's resources, with the actives caught in the middle... forced to attack the resistance, but the resistance doesn't want to hurt them back (but instead wants to co-opt them).
Just a thought.
I'm curious to see what actually happens, but I really want the Dollhouse to become a darker place.
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I'd like the series to show that part too. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
