quote:Originally posted by solo: Charlie taking his drugs in the alt time line could just have more to do with the less severe turbulence - that would explain his different choice.
He didn't take them. He tried to swallow the baggie, like a drug mule. He may not be an addict at all in the alt-timeline.
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The whispers apeared again. In my opinion, they are now the biggest mystery, because they don't even seem to have an origin or explanation.
While I agree they're still a huge mystery, reading the transcripts of what's actually said gives some huge clues as to their nature. Go to Lostpedia and search for "whisper transcripts".
quote:Smokey is very close to being explained. I used to scoff at this, but it may very well be an alien, and the Island is its ship.
I would argue against this unless you assume that Jacob is also an alien. Though even then, I would argue against it.
quote:Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:Originally posted by solo: Charlie taking his drugs in the alt time line could just have more to do with the less severe turbulence - that would explain his different choice.
He didn't take them. He tried to swallow the baggie, like a drug mule. He may not be an addict at all in the alt-timeline.
I don't know about that.It seems that for whatever reason, in this time line, instead of trying to dump it down the toilet, he tried to swallow it. I'm guessing he wasn't actually trying to commit suicide, just trying to get rid of the evidence, but couldn't bare to throw it all away. But yeah, either way, he wasn't trying to "take" them.
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quote:While I agree they're still a huge mystery, reading the transcripts of what's actually said gives some huge clues as to their nature. Go to Lostpedia and search for "whisper transcripts".
I've read the whisper transcripts, but not the most recent ones. And they don't make any sense out of context, in my opinion.
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posted
I remember that some of them were exact lines that we later learned were said 30 years earlier (or possibly at random moments when the group was time jumping). Implication being that the whispers are just a result of temporal distortion.
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posted
This seems to have some pretty strong overtones of Christianity to me. Maybe I'm the only one, but having "the one who will save us" killed by his arch-nemisis who seems to represent death and destruction through one of the choosen acolytes ... well it could just be projection of stories but it seems like it's strong theme to me. Made much stronger if Jacob comes back as Sayid, but even if not my guess is he will return at some point (not as a ghost).
posted
Many of them seem to be said by character who are dead. A salient example is one of the whisper transcripts that takes place at the beginning of season 2, when Shannon and Sayid are in the jungle. The transcript seems to be Boone talking about how being dead sucks and wanting to talk to his sister.
Many of the other transcripts seem to be characters talking about the person in the woods hearing the whispers. Often times discussing this person's knowledge and whether they should present themselves to them.
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posted
Hobbes, there are strong overtones of EVERY religion, not just Christianity, that's whats so great about the show. Though I'd argue that eastern religions are referenced more than western ones. In fact, the heavy references to purpose and karma throughout the series, Sayid's questioning of where he would go because of all the acts he committed, and his subsequent death and rebirth seems to have more significant overtones of Buddhism or Hinduism. And lets not forget references to Shambala or the Tibetan reincarnation test that Richard administers to young Locke as well.
Anyway, my point is that they reference everything from religion to mythology to literature, and I would doubt any one book or religion serves as the base for the entire story. Though, if anything, they've referenced the works Stephen King more than any other single thing on this show.
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posted
That's a fair point Strider, and I have to say something I've appreciated this show for. Actually, I really like that they treat Christianity as any other religion instead of constantly trying to show how diverse they are by making clever reference to the supremacy of other religions over it. None the less, it seems like this plot line is dominated by Christian themes; and this seems like the 'dominate' plot line. Not in the sense that it gets more air time or is more important for the character's individual journeys but since it deals with the guys with the power, it controls the destinies of the most people.
quote:I am still not convinced Jack has a knowledge of the crash in the bizarro time line. I think it is more like the Star Trek episode with the time loop. Jack has a strange sense of deja vu but not an exact knowledge of why.
I have to agree. Jack's behavior simply isn't consistent with him remembering the original time line, but there was lots of evidence that he had some sort of memory of it at a subconscious level. I think that as the season progresses, those memories are going to start influencing his conscious mind in more and more ways, maybe even resurfacing fully by the end of the season.
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quote:I have to agree. Jack's behavior simply isn't consistent with him remembering the original time line, but there was lots of evidence that he had some sort of memory of it at a subconscious level. I think that as the season progresses, those memories are going to start influencing his conscious mind in more and more ways, maybe even resurfacing fully by the end of the season.
I think that's very possible and I kind of like the idea; a complete resetting of the timeline is very similar to ending a show with someone waking up and realizing it was all a dream. All the charecter development and emotion you experienced as challenges were encountered and conquered or failed is wiped away in an instant and you're left feeling cheated.
I'm convinced Jack doesn't remember anything consciously, I can't tell how much of the rest for all the characters is actual subconscious recognition of people or events and how much is the writers being clever. For instance, when Hurley says he's lucky is it because he thinks it, or he's being ironic or trying to accept what everyone was telling him (he won the lotto, all his investments turned out great, etc...). Clearly there were changes to the timeline or the island wouldn't be underwater, but do the characters actually have even a subconscious memory events? I hope so but I'm not convinced yet.
posted
Hobbes, I think it's more along the lines of the writers being clever, than subconscious recognition(at least on the parts of the other characters besides Jack). Or, to put it differently, I think they're trying to tell us that all these characters have important connections with each other, and have or will criss cross paths, regardless of whether 815 crashes or not. That there is something holding or bringing them together.
I agree with what you say about the loss of character development and emotion in regards to a reset.
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quote:Hobbes, I think it's more along the lines of the writers being clever, than subconscious recognition(at least on the parts of the other characters besides Jack). Or, to put it differently, I think they're trying to tell us that all these characters have important connections with each other, and have or will criss cross paths, regardless of whether 815 crashes or not. That there is something holding or bringing them together.
I agree, though maybe it's because I like this more. The former (subconscious memory) seems more like a trick of physical laws (physical laws made up for the show no less) than a real insight into anything. The latter (that these characters will interact one way or another) speak more to destiny, or inter-personal relationships, or just generally something more important than if the writers decided to have a nuclear blast imprint an alternate timeline on some randomly selected group's memory (as note, everyone's timeline had to change with that event, if nothing else the whole world knew that the flight crashed so shouldn't the same alternate-timeline memory thing work for every other person?)
posted
I could buy the explanation that characters who were actually in the vicinity of the incident (as opposed to everyone affected) got a flash of the original timeline burned into their subconscious, and that it carried over because souls exist outside the timestream or something like that.
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posted
I just realized what the writers did with the premier episode! There were tons of people who were going to be super upset if the timeling was reset, and there were going to be people who were angry if the plane didn't land in LA because then the whole last season could have been viewed as a waste of time and a stupid cliffhanger. The writers know they cannot have their cake and eat it too, so they set up diverging timelines where in one there is no cake, but they would be allowed to have it, and in the other there is cake, but proceeding to have it is impossible. They have solved the age old cake conundrum! I'm going to have to think this one out some more to see if I can put it out more clearly.
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posted
I think they're doing more than that (although that is obviously one of the major reasons they went this route). I do think they are going to find a way to connect everything together so that they will have their cake, eat it, and then have it also turn out to be a lie. And then eat some pie for good measure.
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posted
I'm in for the long haul but after the premier I'm not optimistic that this final season will be very satisfying to me. But they've surprised me before, and either way it's been a great ride.
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posted
So I'm rewatching.... two things I didn't catch the first time:
on the plane just after Jack saves Charlie - Charlie gets mad at Jack and tells him that he (Charlie) was supposed to die and then glares at Jack as he is taken off the plane.
on the island when the group is at the temple - the stewardess lady steps out and tells the guy in charge that she knows them and that they "were on the first plane" so what is the second plane??????
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posted
Yeah the second flight is the Ajira flight that Frank landed on the runway that Ben made Kate and Sawyer help build back in season 2. I noticed that Desmond had a wedding ring on when he was talking to Jack on the plane. I hope Desmond and Penny are happily married in the flash-sideways.
It would also be extremely shocking, therefore possible turn of events if Jack killed Locke on the operating table trying to fix his legs/spine.
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LT, I also noticed the runway connection(season 3 though), and thought it was really neat. So did they ever say why they were building it or who told them to? We can only assume Jacob told them to build the runway, correct?
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posted
My only hope for the upcoming episode is that Faraday is a musician in the flash-sideways.
I was also thinking that Walt could have either not been born or born much earlier to correctly put them into the story.
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posted
Just watched the Kate episode. I disliked her less than usual.
I really want to see Desmond, Richard, Charlie, Libby or Mr. Eko strongly featured in an upcoming epiisoe, but I'm not too hopeful. (I avoid the next week on lost scenes and the episode titles when can 'cause I don't like spoilers)
The whole Claire is the new Russoe surprised me, but the more I think about it, the less it should have. I can't believe I never heard that as a theory.
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First, in the hospital scene of today's episode, there was a very brief line about how Aaron likes to move around and how Claire is going to need to keep an eye on him. Was this foreshadowing something? The whole part of that scene where Aaron shifts positions and Claire panics seems to serve no purpose in the plot arc, except to set up that line. Is it possible Aaron is someone we know on the island (through time travel)?
Secondly, it seems like the "sickness" is back. But how did Sayid contract it? He didn't seem to come in contact with other "sick" islanders, and he didn't contact the Smoke Monster... so how does one get this "infection"? Dogen immediately thought to test for it after Sayid came back to life, so is it possible it has something to do with being near death?
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posted
Oh yeah and I had a good laugh when Ethan said he didn't want to have to prick Claire with needles. Posts: 856 | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Tres, I think the death of Jacob, and the fact that water wasn't clear indicates that somehow the smoke monster had infected the healing spring, and thus infected Sayid.
I very much disliked this episode. I've never really been a fan of Kate episodes and I was flat out bored most of the time. The only redeeming part of the altTimeline was Ethan's appearance. And his line about not wanting to stick Claire with needles was hilarious.
I thought Miles had some great lines, "we'll be in the food court", "Hurley's the leader now, so that's great".
The infected sub plot is intriguing, and Claire's return is pretty cool. So if Dogen is right, and Claire has been taken by the monster in the same way that Rousseau's team was, why does she save Jin? Are we supposed to be happy to see her or scared? Could it be that Dogen is wrong?
I'm still put off by how easily these Others will resort to violence and murder. I guess that's not Jacob's fault, he wants to have faith in humanity, but doesn't seem to want to force them to be good, but still, it's bothersome. Maybe we'll find out Smokey isn't as bad as we all think.
Really though, overall, I thought this episode was a big waste of time. It could've been 3 minutes long. I'll be psyched for more meat to the story next week, and altTime flashes that don't deal with Kate. Jack and Locke maybe!
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posted
Uprooted, I had the same questions. It reminded me a bit of Dune and the gom jabbar. But yeah, I have no idea what Dogen was looking for or what he saw.
Posts: 8741 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
I think I've figured out the Sayid and Claire thing. I'm so sure of it I don't even dare post it, for fear that it's a spoiler.
But let's just say someone else besides Sayid might remember being shot and have reason to think he needs to be thanking Jack for saving him.
I'm with Strider, though--I think it will be a miracle if they come out of the season finale having explained the connections between Jacob, the others, and the smoke monster in a way that makes every single episode make sense.
The brainwashing room telling people Jacob loves them? And was that set up by the others or was it a holdover from Dharma? Is that room Jacob-sanctioned? If it's not, why would someone NOT working for Jacob make it? Richard telling Locke he had to kill his own father to become an other? The stewardess being totally cool with all of this, even though supposedly only "good" people are on "the list?" Ben being able to summon the smoke monster to kill the mercenaries, even though the smoke monster is the one trying to be in control?
Who is everybody really serving? And who is serving who?
Even if they don't explain minor details, I would like to see the character motivations become clear. Especially the motivations of Dharma and the Others.
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posted
The biggest thing I noted in this episode is that both Kate and Claire have some sort of premonitions or subconscious memories of the original time line. I'm really hoping they are planning to take that somewhere interesting, possibly linking the two timelines.
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posted
I agree - there were moments when both Claire and Kate seemed to remember something about the other.
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quote:Originally posted by Wendybird: I agree - there were moments when both Claire and Kate seemed to remember something about the other.
Well the real biggie was not Claire and Kate seeming to remember each other but when Claire, in a moment of crisis, started calling the baby Aaron. Then to remove any ambiguity she tells Kate "I don't know why I said it, it's like I knew it or something."
It would be hard for them to have been any more clear.
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posted
This is killing me -- i have no idea what the "theory" is. I can't think of a single character who Jack saved from a gunshot wound and/or who *thinks* Jack saved him/her from a gunshot wound. And that person would have to be, what, shot once, survived, and then killed later, and is now possessing Sayid?
quote:Ben being able to summon the smoke monster to kill the mercenaries, even though the smoke monster is the one trying to be in control?
It seems that when Esau is in the form of the smoke monster he is limited in his ability to act, and constrained by his duty to protect the Island.
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posted
A resource for anyone who's interested: Doc Jensen on EW.com writes these fantastic episode recaps and breakdowns, where he discusses everything from Shamu Whale imagery (not kidding) to the GUTOL (Grand Unifying Theory of Lost) and has some fantastic narrative insights. He's been wrong in his guesses before, which makes him just a fan like the rest of us, working off assumptions and trying to piece together clues. I love reading his theories and his take on the different characters and the "message" of the show. Highly recommended for Lost fans. Posts: 3516 | Registered: Sep 2002
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This is the misdirection. Don't think about who's been killed. Think about who else has been in the pool.
And who might have thought Jack saved them when they were shot, even though Jack didn't really want to save them.
I'll just say it--it is just a theory:
I think it's young Ben. Somehow, part of "him" went into the pool, and picked up part of someone else. Now Sayid has gone into the pool, left part of himself behind, and picked up the part of Ben that's been there. That's the part that talked about remembering being shot, and that thanked Jack for saving him, unaware that Jack didn't want to help.
The implications for Claire are obvious.
Posts: 1894 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
Unfortunately, for Lost, nothing's totally crazy. :-) However, since young Ben barely interacted with Jack in the 70's I don't know why he would assume random sub guy was a doctor and would be sent to heal him -- unless you're suggesting that young Ben's consciousness stayed in the pool and has recently been merged with old Ben, thus learning all of old Ben's memories?
I'm not really too on-board with that theory, sorry. Posts: 3516 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Not to me. I can't see any possible way to squeeze Claire into your Sayid has somehow become part Ben theory.
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posted
I thought it was crazy when I first came up with it, before Teusday's episode aired. People were talking about whether or not Sayid had an accent and whether he was possessed by Jacob or what, and I got to thinking about who could be in his body. And I decided the most likely choice was young ben.
So then Teusday's episode aired, and it felt like everything kept confirming it. Sayid acting kind of different, Sayid remembering being shot, Sayid thanking Jack for saving him--it was all stuff Ben could have said, too. It all just kept fitting.
As for Claire, the implication is that the French Chick's been in the pool.
We're going to get a couple of weeks of "They took my baby" and wondering why Claire can work a gun all of a sudden, and then we're going to have a moment when she says "Alex" instead of "Aaron" or something, and we realize she's not talking about the baby we thought she was. Or she's talking some kind of jumbled hybrid of both babies.
Posts: 1894 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
Again, I'm not understanding how young Ben would know who Jack was, or be at all interested in thanking him. Any thoughts?
Also, it's been three years for Claire, no matter which way you slice it. Plenty of time for Claire (like Rousseau) to acclimate herself to the wilderness and learn to use a gun.
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posted
I looked it up and I was misremembering last season. I thought that Jack was the one who'd been working on him, but then had refused to finish, but it was Juliet and Jack never got involved.
Dang it. Sorry. My bad.
Posts: 1894 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
We haven't seen enough of Sayid to say whether or not he's acting differently or just acting like Sayid recovering from a fatal injury and torture. I didn't see anything in his behavior that seemed the least bit like Ben. His reaction to torture wasn't the least bit like Ben's reaction when Sayid tortured him. His thank you Jack was nothing like Ben's duplicitous thanks when Jack did the spine surgery.
I think its is worth noting that both Ben and Sayid were taken to the temple with gun shot wounds and healed. That's an interesting parallel but certainly doesn't suggest that Sayid is possessed by Ben.
Likewise, there are interesting parallels between Rouseau and Claire. But there is no evidence that either one of them was ever in the temple, let alone the pool.
I expect that these parallels are important and we are going to learn more about them, but possession of one by the other seems way out there even for lost.
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posted
Rabbit, I wasn't talking about old Ben, I was talking about young Ben. And if my theory had been correct, the reason old Ben would have acted differently than young Ben would be that Ben "picked up" something in the pool that made him more bitter than the young Ben that Sayid picked up. Ben picked up someone else (a Black Rock person?) and Sayid picked up young Ben.
Let me back up a step.
What connects it (at least in my twisted mind) is Miles's power. It says that there is a "thing" about each person that Miles is able to detect, even after they die. That "thing" is sort of what I feel like is going into the pool.
Think about it--Young Ben DIDN'T remember being shot. He lost that memory. Sayid DID remember being shot. There has to be a reason for the difference.
The obvious explanation is that it didn't affect him like it did young Ben because of whatever made the pool "Dirty." (Presumably Jacob's death, but who knows.) It changed the rules of the pool, so they don't have to have it affect the two of them the same.
The alternate explanation is that Sayid gave up some of his own memories and picked up the ones Ben lost. The pool might be some kind of collective conciousness of a bunch the others, that being why Richard said Ben would always be "one of them" after he went in the pool.
But basically, it's BEN'S memory of being shot that he could remember.
So maybe instead of possession or spirit swapping I'll just soften it to some kind of shared memory or swapped memory.
But misremembering of last season has weakened my faith in my theory quite a bit.
quote:But there is no evidence that either one of them was ever in the temple, let alone the pool.
I thought it was made completely clear that Claire had been in the pool, since the leader of the Temple said the same thing happened to her that was happening to Sayid. Looking it up, I guess that also is just an assumption on my part--specifically all he said was the same "darkness" was taking her that was taking Sayid. I guess I just assumed the rest in terms of the theory I'd started out the episode with.
But I don't think assuming she got the "darkness" in the same way Sayid did is as big a logical leap as some of the other parts of my theory.
Posts: 1894 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
Rousseau's team got the darkness from being dragged under the temple wall by Smokey.
The only reason Sayid got it in the pool is because Jacob had been killed and the water was no longer clear. When young Ben was taken to the Temple he was probably bathed in clear water.
Claire, if she has in fact been Smokified (which isn't a guarantee), could have easily been infected by her interactions with Christian Shepard.
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