posted
I hate to say it, but I think the different reactions to Sara's humanity and Leto's rants were sexist in origin.
I try not to call sexist unless I really think it's a factor, but our exalted females tend to be angels and our exalted males tend to be warriors. In that sense, it makes perfect sense for the reactions to come as they did. It makes sense, not that I agree with it. Watching what happened with CT and Ralphie reinforces my decision a thousand times to never become a pillar - and considering Tom called me the female Leto, that probably won't happen anytime soon anyway.
[ January 13, 2005, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: Lady Jane ]
Posts: 1163 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:Coming into the Hatrack Community is a lot like starting your freshman year of high school in a completely new town.
I guess that makes me a super-senior...
All joking aside, I completely understand how difficult it is to fit in here. Quite often, I still feel like I don't. Yeah, right, after almost five and a half years, how could I not fit in? "Fitting in" is all how you see yourself here. I don't see myself as part of a core group or a clique, and yes, sometimes that annoys me. The people who are "in" are, like, tight, man. They know each other. They talk regularly outside of Hatrack. They don't have to repeat basic information about themselves to their intended audience. They don't always have to produce credibility first in order to be heard. Think about it, we'll jump all over someone who just registered claiming to know something demanding sources a lot faster than an established member (alright, mostly...).
It's rather sad, really. And I can definitely see how that would make people not want to be here.
As for me (woo! Back to the pity party!)... it could just come down to the excuses of "Not wanting to sound the broken record" or "Not wanting to start an argument," or it could be more that I just don't actually know anyone here. I've met three of you and talked to one on the telephone. Years ago. It's almost as if anyone who doesn't go to a gathering is outside the "Circle of Trust."
This isn't enough to make me leave. There's always the hope of getting "in" that drives me. And there's everything I learn here. I've been here for ages, I am here now, and Zeus knows I'll be here forever.
Posts: 3932 | Registered: Sep 1999
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posted
kat, there's logic in what you say, and yet . . .
Couldn't the different reactions have been based on the different prior behavior? I mean--
Gosh, I've already offended (perhaps) one or two or three people in this thread. Maybe I should just quit while I'm less behind.
--I consider John a friend, but who hasn't been ripped a new one by John at some point (unless you just never post in a serious thread? So maybe people put up with him because it was in character, not because he is a guy?
It might just be that if you're a pillar, you must never break character. If John had turned all sweetness and light, would we have been weirded out, and maybe not taken him seriously? Would we have been always waiting for the other shoe, and therefore never considered his niceness sincere?
Who else gets thrown for a second every time the phony Slash comes around scattering flower petals?
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posted
I've seen you as a bit of a Hatrack icon for years kat.
Who are the exhalted warriors you're talking about? John and Slash leap to mind, but no one else does. Tom's a pillar, but while he's certainly capable of ripping someone a new one it isn't really his modus operandi or anything. Icarus is a pillar despite his protestations to the contrary, and it's basically for being a kind person. Bob is a pillar, but he's the Pillar of Funny. I've seen him get pissed, but who hasn't gotten pissed here at some point or another? He certainly isn't some warrior type.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:They don't have to repeat basic information about themselves to their intended audience. They don't always have to produce credibility first in order to be heard. Think about it, we'll jump all over someone who just registered claiming to know something demanding sources a lot faster than an established member (alright, mostly...).
I expected this, when I was new. If long-standing people aren't given some more leeway than new people, then is it really a community? If Dag says something about the law, he has already proven his expertise, and I will take it seriously. If some stranger does, I expect his argument to be more supported.
I'm not sure this is hypocrisy.
I wonder why anybody would find that offensive unless what they wanted was in. And if you don't have to earn that sense of belonging, at least a little bit, then is it real?
(I'm not being defensive, btw, I'm discussing.)
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:It's almost as if anyone who doesn't go to a gathering is outside the "Circle of Trust."
Nah, I don't buy that. I've never been to a gathering. I've never met a hatracker in real life, period. I still feel like a full fledged member of the community though.
Actually, I really like where I stand in the Hatrack community. I feel that I'm fairly widely known, generally liked, but have managed to avoid becoming a pillar. I can just come here and hang out with a huge group of people whose company I enjoy.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:Who are the exhalted warriors you're talking about?
Hmm...I don't think you need to be belligerent to be a warrior. CT fits both the angel and warrior, since she has knowledge, willingness to research, and devestating logic on her side, but she's so overwhelmingly nice and apologetic about crushing someone's argument to dust that it doesn't feel like the devestation it is.
However, Mr. Squicky, Dag, Tom, Leto, The Pixiest, uh....(*frantically racks brain for who else posts in the serious, which she doesn't at the moment and has a horrible memory for personal events - once forgot own birthday*), Kwea...forgive me for those I'm leaving out - I think all of them get away with more crap because they are so often in opposition to those to whom they are speaking. It's usually respectful, intelligent opposition, but when it isn't, they are less likely to be called on it. The exception to that trend in the list above is...The Pixiest. Female.
quote:If Bob got really pissed and really told someone off, would we be as freaked by it?
I remember Bob getting mad - not to the point of swearing, but definitely upset. It was so weird I think the entire post was ignored completely.
[ January 13, 2005, 12:05 PM: Message edited by: Lady Jane ]
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posted
"Watching what happened with CT and Ralphie reinforces my decision a thousand times to never become a pillar - and considering Tom called me the female Leto, that probably won't happen anytime soon anyway."
*polite cough* It's not possible to be the female Leto without also being a pillar, Katie.
---
And Carrie, you DO live within, like, a half hour of my house, right? Why don't you drop by?
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posted
I agree with Noemon - although obviously having been around for a shorter period.
I haven't met anyone here, due to the whole Australia thing. However, I still feel I belong.
That said - there are some things I feel sidelined by, but I think that is because I am not American, not because I don't belong. That's as little as not celebrating Thanksgiving to stuff like no-one considering me a legal source - although I graduate law school gaurenteed second top (and might still be top) from my year this July.
But it doesn't really bother me - mostly, I'm happy to be here.
Posts: 4393 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
kat, you're totally a pillar, so deal with it. It was obvious from the moment I joined.
Carrie, if you want to, I would certainly love to have you come for the henna party. It's the weekend of February 19th, and there are other people coming from Madison you could catch a ride with. On the other hand, I'm not saying "Hey, just come to my gathering and then you'll be in and not feel like this anymore. I just think it would be fun to have you.)
I think a big part of it comes down to post count. Not because we look up to people with high post count, but because they talk so much we know and remember stuff about them. So no, they don't have to reintroduce themselves, except for occasionally to newbies... the rset of us know it already, because they're flippin' always posting. (Verrrrry aware of my own posting habits, right here.)
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quote:If Bob got really pissed and really told someone off, would we be as freaked by it?
I've seen Bob get really pissed before. It's rare, but it happens. When it does happen I do tend to be kind of startled by it, but as a result of its rarity I tend to take it more seriously than I would if, say, John were to blow his top over something.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
I remember meeting Carrie and thinking, "Hey, she's a great person. I look forward to seeing her at the next gathering."
And then she wasn't at the next gathering, or the one after that, and I remember thinking, "Gee, I must have smelled really, really bad."
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
lol, and Carrie's parents live somewhere near Green Bay and she's a massive Packer's fan and kicks everyone's butt at football picks. Can't remember her major at college though. AJ
Posts: 11265 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
I don't think it's so much offensive as it is annoying. (And really, I should specify that I'm speaking more from a lurker-feeling-n00bish perspective than anything else.) I do agree that a place in any community should be earned, but don't a lot of people first getting here want to be in? If they didn't want to be "in" - or at least a part of the community - why else would they be here attempting to have a discussion? It might be the more accusatory tone commonly taken with the more... inexperienced... members which led me to find a smidgeon of hypocrisy there, but re-thinking it leads me to agree with you, Ic, on the pure-n00b level. As a former lurker, it gets extraordinarily annoying.
And Tom... I met you? Really? Maybe it was that long ago... Anyhow, I don't stop by because I haven't really got transportation (ah, the life of a student).
Edit: Must... defend... massive... Yes, I'll cheer for them, but please understand, I'd be disowned if I didn't! And besides, it's nice to see investments do well.
posted
Oh, I know. I'm actually writhing in agony.
IIRC, Carrie, you were at the first-ever Hatrack gathering I ever attended, at the Mexican place on west University. By the time we had the second one at Noodles, though, you had vanished.
And don't let transportation be an issue. If you ever want to run into any of us, a lack of a car will not be a problem.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
kat, I don't really think you have the standing to talk about other people getting away with a lot of crap. Over the course of your Hatrack career, you may have been cut less slack than Leto, but it's a near thing.
Icky, You know, I even think I was around when Sara went off, but I really don't remember much about it. That is a good point though. There is sort of a yin-yang sort of thing, where the active can get away with stuff but the receptive and nurturing are held to a higher standard. There is definitely a dark resentment side to most forms of adoration and you know, if Sara did something wrong, she'd be a pretty easy target to get a lot of milage out of it, unlike say me, who if I thought I did something wrong would appologize and then expect to move on.
---
I don't think that the first year of high school is all that apt an analogy, especially considering the majority view here of high school as being some sort of hell. I think a better image would be showing up at a party where you don't know anyone. You're just looking for someone to talk to, but it can be hard to break into any of the groups.
One of the big things that I see with newcomers is that they're just not taken seriously. Yes, they're saying things that have been said before and they're not being all that insightful or interesting, but that's generally how people enter situations like that. They're throwing out the equivilent of small talk.
Imagine if you got up the courage to introduce yourself to people at a party and they started laughing about one of their in-jokes based off of something you said.
Or you show up, people all give you a hearty welcome and a hug and then don't talk to you again for the rest of the evening. That semes to me to be many newcomers experience here. You can get people to welcome you, but the welcomes don't really mean anything. Anybody will get welcomed, with approximately the same amount of interest.
Of course, I don't actually care about this. I don't welcome people or generally post in things like landmark threads because I'm not interested in the social community aspects of Hatrack. I try to support quality when I'm in the mood to and most of the time, newcomers aren't overtly bringing anything to the table that interests me.
The thing is, if you are interested in fostering a welcoming community, you need to not focus on what you're getting out of a newcomer, but instead on making them feel a part of the community. At parties, that's often my role, as I have a talent for people. There's plenty of ways to go about doing this, but they are generally less comfortable and nowhere near as much fun as I could be having in a group of my friends. But at the end, you've got someone who is integrated into the gorup and feels comfortable there and that's good for hem and for the party in general.
I'm not trying to criticize. I'm just trying to say, remember, for them it's like coming to a party where you don't know anyone. Treat them the way you'd like to be treated in that situation.
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posted
Actually, I was never at a Mexican place with Hatr... Jatraqueros. I was at the mini-one with Jeni, Sara, and Sev at the Union.
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posted
"I don't really think you have the standing to talk about other people getting away with a lot of crap. Over the course of your Hatrack career, you may have been cut less slack than Leto, but it's a near thing."
On the contrary. Along with me, David Bowles, and a few others -- including you, Squicky -- kat is in fact uniquely qualified to talk about people getting away with a lot of crap.
"I don't welcome people or generally post in things like landmark threads because I'm not interested in the social community aspects of Hatrack."
I don't buy that one, Squick. You're not interested in participating in the social community aspects, largely due to sour grapes, but you spend almost all your time posting about 'em.
-------
Hm. I may be projecting an idealized Carrie onto the screen of my memory, then. I wonder who it was that was conspicuously absent from Noodles, because I distinctly remember missing that person. *taps fingers together contemplatively and stares off into space*
quote:kat, I don't really think you have the standing to talk about other people getting away with a lot of crap. Over the course of your Hatrack career, you may have been cut less slack than Leto, but it's a near thing.
Hmm...you know, I actually had a last paragraph to that post that I deleted. It consisted of the following:
quote:The other exceptions to the above consist of Mr. Squicky and Tom (in religion threads), but that's because I noticed this trend a long time ago and it annoyed me, so I call it because of that. I consider that to be a tainted sample.
Maybe I should have left it in?
quote:On the contrary. Along with me, David Bowles, and a few others -- including you, Squicky -- kat is in fact uniquely qualified to talk about people getting away with a lot of crap.
Ouch - dang it - this is another reason to avoid pillar status. There's so much more freedom there. *sigh* And I've been so good lately.
Added: I feel like I need to make some sort of pillar/pilloried joke here.
[ January 13, 2005, 12:42 PM: Message edited by: Lady Jane ]
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posted
When I joined, I noticed Kat getting called on things that others were doing and not getting called on in the same thread, within a few posts of Kat. Even to the extent of getting called on things the person calling her on was doing.
I have no idea if any of those others were male or female, so I can't speak to the sexism theory. But there was a disparity, and it wasn't in Kat's favor.
And Kat, you were a well-established pillar by the time I got here.
posted
I realize that the worm has turned, turned again, zig zagged, done a little dance, been bisected with a garden trowel, has crawled off in separate directions, and been used as bait since Kwea posted this, but...
quote: If that contributed to you leaving, I am sorry. I saw a few of your posts and thought you were pretty cool, but I don't think I said that...it is like someone already sadi...if we don't disagree with you then the point was probably well recieved...
It's not like I have been offended or anything by Hatrack (which is not to say that I was never offended by anything on Hatrack, of course I have been offended, but certainly not by you, and not enough to be driven away). I just felt Hatrack wasn't the right place for me at the moment, for the reasons delineated.
I was once named "most consistently useless poster" in a Usenet group. That wasn't even offensive. Okay, well maybe a little offensive, but I didn't cry or anything. And kept posting.
I wouldn't have even said anything but ElJay asked me to, and I figured a thorough explanation was perhaps informative for people wondering about why some people might feel left out.
I don't really want to go on any more about this, personally, since I want any future posting by myself to be a non-event. I didn't leave in a huff, just wandered off.
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posted
"When I joined, I noticed Kat getting called on things that others were doing and not getting called on in the same thread, within a few posts of Kat."
*nod* I remember that whole flap. I even tried to moderate it through E-mail, IIRC, because I was so disappointed in the way some users were acting.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
If it's any consolation, Katie, I don't think it was sexist -- in your case -- as much as it was personal. The people who went after you that time did so because they felt personally betrayed by your position on a given topic, and harped on specifics of your conversation because they were unwilling to be honest with themselves about the nature of their objections. It was precisely because they cared about your personal opinion that your opinion, when voiced, became repellent to them; it's the same reaction you see when people learning OSC's position on gay marriage visit Hatrack for the first time and feel the need to share with us.
posted
I'd personally say that even though we clearly disagree on quite a few issuess Katie and I have become relatively close friends partially as a result of that flap. I think there are several other people also who as a result respect her for standing up for what she believes even if they disagree.
posted
So, if someone used to be a pillar, and then they come in with a new screen name, they have gone from pillar to poster?
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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quote: The major costs (and some of the major benefis) come from you not being a normal human being to other people. Check out any of the "We Miss Ralphie" threads and you can see this. It's like "We hope Ralphie comes back so that she can entertain us again." Get into that trap and people expect you to just give and generally don't try to see more of you than what you are giving and they don't see you as someone who wants or sometimes needs to be given in return.
posted
Tom - Noodles and the Mexican place were on the same day, before and after a movie. Carrie was at neither, unfortunately. The person who didn't show up that day was xnera, I think.
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Well, there was some drama referred to CT (which I missed, cause I miss everything), so I was wondering if I'd just forgotten about my drama. Which is entirely possible, what with this temporal lobe epilepsy and all.
btw - If it's of interest whether someone as histrionic and simultaneously 'revered' as I could recover... I no longer feel the need to entertain anyone or be well-loved. I'm enjoying Hatrack a lot more just doing my thang. I guess you could say that these days I'm a donkey on the edge.
edit: To address Icarus, cause stupid Jeni is always in the stupid way.
posted
Well, there's that, Ralphie, and you don't use the same AIM name anymore, I think. I find limiting AIM exposure lowers your chances of becoming a virtual 30-foot phallically-inspired granite thing.
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