posted
I sort of feel like we ought to always go way out of our way to make newcomers feel welcome. Even the ones who are rather abrasive on arrival. So many of those end up being great jatraqueros, contributing so much, once their sharp edges are worn off, you know? Another reason is that I remember my first post back in 1997 and I was terrified! Would anyone respond? Would they think I was an idiot? Would they laugh at me? We never know what other people are feeling and how much sorrow or trepidation they may have. That's why I hope we will always put kindness first.
Being funny is wonderful, and the funny stuff on hatrack is a whole lot of its charm. I learned long ago never to eat or drink while reading even serious threads. My walls still show signs of those lessons. But especially with new people, it's more important to make them feel welcome than it is to make even hilarious jokes that might possibly leave them feeling laughed at. Kindness is more important than the funny. It's sad, I know, but it's true.
A lot of alienated kids wander here because Ender means something to them. A lot of people of all ages come because OSC's work speaks to their hearts. It's such a good community of caring and wonderful people, and every new person who joins brings something special of their own to the place. I just feel like we should never forget that we don't own this forum. We are only caretakers, in a sense. All the people here are Uncle Orson's and Aunt Kristine's guests. We should always bend way over backwards to make new people, and especially young people, feel welcome and accepted. I think I've been falling down on my duties in that regard lately, but I do think it matters, and I'm really proud that people like Katie and Irami and Noah tell me I had a part in their coming here or deciding to stick around.
So welcome, all you new people! We're delighted to have you here. We hope you will stay around and enjoy this place as much as we have through the years. We look forward to getting to know you.
posted
It's nice to see what I've been feeling put into words for me. I know I still feel way too new to comfortably post in certain threads and at times it feels like people are skipping right over your posts. But I knew it'd feel like that coming into the forum because of experience at another forum. So I won't be giving up quite yet.
I also have a friend here, who is friends with two other infrequent posters and acquaintances with yet a few others, who is having a hard time with posting because she doesn't feel like she fits in.
In both of our cases, we lurked quite a while before joining, so we both knew what we felt was enough about Hatrack to get by.
Posts: 378 | Registered: Aug 2004
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quote:I know I still feel way too new to comfortably post in certain threads
Trust me - there's no thread that's exclusive, even ones where it looks like it's just two people going back and forth. We're mostly very nice here.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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I can't think of anyway to describe why I think I feel that way without it sounding really attackingish without meaning to, and I'm a bit upset about something unrelated right now, so that's all I'll say. It does mean a lot to me when people say they notice me, though. It's not that I feel ignored, it's just nice to be acknowledged sometimes. It made me feel a lot better. Posts: 4655 | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
Uhleeuh, I have enjoyed everything I have seen from you.
Edit: Same goes for you, blackwolve!
I think the people who get noticed the most are the "squeaky wheels". Of course, sometimes the attention is negative, and it can be scary to take that chance. But it seems like the most well-known are the most proliferate also. Some may have quieted down, but it was through being proliferate at one time that they became well known.
Then they can retire and live off the royalties.
It is like the attitude Porter always had towards dancing: The secret to not looking like an idiot is to act like you know what you are doing.
I wanted to play "our way" on Sunday. It really must be done in person. In the Hatrack version, there is no real use for strategy because you are kept so much in the dark. Maybe next time. Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Being funny is wonderful, and the funny stuff on hatrack is a whole lot of its charm. I learned long ago never to eat or drink while reading even serious threads. My walls still show signs of those lessons. But especially with new people, it's more important to make them feel welcome than it is to make even hilarious jokes that might possibly leave them feeling laughed at. Kindness is more important than the funny. It's sad, I know, but it's true.
A lot of alienated kids wander here because Ender means something to them. A lot of people of all ages come because OSC's work speaks to their hearts. It's such a good community of caring and wonderful people, and every new person who joins brings something special of their own to the place. I just feel like we should never forget that we don't own this forum. We are only caretakers, in a sense. All the people here are Uncle Orson's and Aunt Kristine's guests. We should always bend way over backwards to make new people, and especially young people, feel welcome and accepted. I think I've been falling down on my duties in that regard lately, but I do think it matters, and I'm really proud that people like Katie and Irami and Noah tell me I had a part in their coming here or deciding to stick around.
Anne Kate - You are inherently a very kind person, and I know that you were a large part of why I felt at home as early as I did in my Hatrack career. You are a very important part of the balancing act at the 'rack, and that's why you are considered so integral. If Anne Kate left, it would be a very sad day, indeed.
Hatrack is - first and foremost - a community for you. The more I thought of Hatrack as a community, nay - my community - the kinder I was to new people. But I no longer think of Hatrack as my community. And the less I think of Hatrack as my community, the less patient I am with the same old/same old drivel in a new package. I think that's really what it comes down to: if Hatrack is your refuge from The Storm, then you will be far more willing to share that refuge-like feeling with others. If Hatrack is a place of news, intelligent discourse, wit and banter (and if that's what you pride yourself in giving to Hatrack), then you are far less likely to massage the ground the little newbie seedlings are growing in.
While there is never an excuse to be rude to someone unfamiliar with 'the turf', I can completely see why people would lose patience with those that are unabashedly trying to disrupt the flow of the forums, and/or simply ignore those that are exhibiting difficulty finding their nitch amongst the intelligent discourse/banter.
Both these schools of thought are important, I think. Jatraqueros that see the potential in everyone help foster along the awkward newbies that end up being some of our most beloved members. Jatraqueros that tolerate no antagonism or banality prevent the place from becoming a nonstop sequence of party smileys, 1337 speak and people exploiting the emotional support Hatrack is usually happy to give with intensely personal issues that no one has any bidnazz around here knowing.
While that could, of course, be shameless justification because I'm in general not a very nice person, I do think that two schools of thought make a nice balance where people can be both welcomed and expect a certain level of excellence.
To those who have expressed that they've never found their nitch - from what I've seen, the vast majority of you are really cool posters. Sometimes it's hard to include newer ones in banter that is built on a history of previous conversations and dynamics. I'm sorry you feel that Hatrack is cliquish, and I won't deny that there is a solid reason to feel this way. I only hope you stick around long enough to feel comfortable. It took me at least a year not to feel a warm rush of heat run into my cheeks (the face ones) whenever I made a post, and then religiously hit "refresh" to see if anyone noticed. I think that's normal, and I hope you all eventually feel as comfortable here as I do.
Well, except you stinky ones. You know who you are.
posted
beverly, I don't think there would have been time to play it with clues and such on Sunday. Besides, I had a tough enough time keeping track of what was going on without clues.
It's so much EASIER to keep track of stuff in online mafia. Who said what, who's dead, and so on.
But that was fun! I'll have to come back to SLC just so we can play again.
As far as feeling like you fit into Hatrack . . . I think how you start affects your perceptions a lot. My first post was long and carefully-worded, in a volatile and emotional topic. So I got replies addressed to me. Thus I learned that I could get attention here (and promptly disappeared for a month or two).
So even on days when I feel invisible, or when I have nothing to say, I know on a very basic level that I can get attention here. I wonder if some of our quieter posters (and lurkers) feel like they don't fit in because of different early Hatrack experiences. Whatever the reason, I think it's a shame. I wish blacwolve, Ryuko, Uhleeuh -- and so many others! -- would post more. They's good people!
And I3 should come back!!
quote: Both these schools of thought are important, I think. Jatraqueros that see the potential in everyone help foster along the awkward newbies that end up being some of our most beloved members. Jatraqueros that tolerate no antagonism or banality prevent the place from becoming a nonstop sequence of party smileys, 1337 speak and people exploiting the emotional support Hatrack is usually happy to give with intensely personal issues that no one has any bidnazz around here knowing.
While that could, of course, be shameless justification because I'm in general not a very nice person, I do think that two schools of thought make a nice balance where people can be both welcomed and expect a certain level of excellence.
I entirely agree. Well, except about the "no bidnazz" bit. Being able to bare my soul here -- when I want to -- has been very cathartic for me. I may do it again soon. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote: It's so much EASIER to keep track of stuff in online mafia. Who said what, who's dead, and so on.
Actually, the one time I played, I had *such* a hard time keeping track of who was who! There were alter-egos, and life stories to keep track of. Possible motives. Ack! I don't think I want to do that again.
The way we play is so very simple. There are just townies, mafia, and police, divided roughly into thirds. When you die, you show what you were so everyone knows how many of who are still in the game. Being in person and knowing who is eliminated already allows you to actually have something to discuss when it comes time to lynch someone.
Yes, you must come back so we can show you how much better our version is!
Oh, and BTW, thanks so much for introducing us to that game! I think we are bound to get it ourselves soon.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
I'm really disappointed that Int3 isn't here anymore. I'd noticed that he hadn't posted in a while, but I'd just assumed he was busy and would be back--he feels like a natural for the forum.
I can completely understand why new people would feel a bit shut out here, for all the the reasons that have already been so well articulated. I know that it was years before I felt listened to here--I'd put all sorts of effort into setting out some idea or argument, and it wouldn't even be addressed. I wondered if anyone even noticed my posts, honestly, and thought about leaving more than once. What I didn't realize (well, I got it intellectually, but not emotionally) was that the fact that people didn't comment on my posts didn't necessarily mean that they hadn't been read and appreciated. Back then, when the forum was smaller, I read, literally, every post, but I only typed out a reply to a tiny fraction of those, and actually posted a small percentage even of those. Even today it isn't uncommon for me to type out a fairly lengthy reply, read over it, and think "naaaaahhh".
Above, someone was saying something about how most well known posters had had a very prolific period. That'd definitely true for some, but not all. I *think* that I'm pretty well known here--I certainly feel like I am, anyway--and I don't think I ever had a very prolific period. I think that I'm well known by virtue of having been here a long time, and having posted fairly steadily for almost all of that time. I don't think I've ever done anything dramatic to catch anyone's attention either. So, non-squeaky wheel types, take heed! To become a relatively well known, generally liked member of the forum, all you have to do is stick around for a while, and generally not be an ass. Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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Ah, but who provided the inspiration for the costume in the first place, hmmmm?[/one's own horn tooting]
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:I entirely agree. Well, except about the "no bidnazz" bit. Being able to bare my soul here -- when I want to -- has been very cathartic for me. I may do it again soon.
I dunno. There seems to me to be a line that just shouldn't be crossed. You can always tell when I feel that line has been crossed because I blast the stinking thing to the sky. Even if that's not my call to make. Of course, people can tell me to cram it, and should.
Even still, I was referring to a non-stop sequence of personal issues which I've seen on more touch-feely forums. They usually end up simply becoming a support group and individual issues begin to lose meaning.
Posts: 7600 | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
If it makes you feel better, blackwolve, you're one of the few here that I feel really comfortable with. Posts: 119 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
When you look at my post count, though, and think about how long I've been here, it really doesn't come out to *that* many posts per day.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
As a professional lurker, I relate to everything already voiced by several people far more articulate than I. Which is actually a great explanation of why I so rarely post- it always seems that someone has said it smarter, funnier, and faster than I could have.
Sometimes it's strange, feeling so close to all of you due to my stalker-esque love of Hatrack, yet knowing that no one knows me from Adam. This fall, I acquired more free time and vowed to start posting more, but alas, my "proliferative phase" has probably averaged less than a post a week. And each one was red faced and reloaded again and again. I think there might be such a thing as lurking too long, such that you get yourself into a position where you know and respect everyone too much to throw yourself out there and risk being disliked or, worse, disregarded.
But it's worth it. Hatrack is the haven for me that Ralphie talked about. I look forward to it all day, and it has been responsible for helping me to learn so much about myself and to grow, both in my knowledge and my insight. You are an incredibly giving and intelligent group of people, and I thank you so much for letting people like me watch, even if we remain on the side lines.
Anne Kate, when I posted the very first time in 2000, you said hi to me, and I still remember it; every time I took a short hiatus from Hatrack, you were the first person I looked for. Thanks for your kindness.
Posts: 186 | Registered: Dec 2000
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quote:Which is actually a great explanation of why I so rarely post- it always seems that someone has said it smarter, funnier, and faster than I could have.
Yeah, I sometimes feel that way too. But part of the reason some of these people seem so funny is that they post so darn much. The funny things you remember, the stupid posts you forget. Posting a whole bunch also helps with the speed problem. That's right, Hatrack, I'm advocating that we all post more fluff in order to get more quality. Of course, I'm also assuming we all improve with practice...
Posts: 3546 | Registered: Jul 2002
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quote: As a professional lurker, I relate to everything already voiced by several people far more articulate than I. Which is actually a great explanation of why I so rarely post- it always seems that someone has said it smarter, funnier, and faster than I could have.
heh... that's something i should have said, but you said it smarter, funnier, and faster than I could have. Posts: 494 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
EDIT: I posted this briefly under an alias I created to play a little game with ElJay. I deleted and reposted under my proper identity. And edited again because some small stylistic inconsistencies wouldn't let me sleep.
Many thanks to those who expressed their desire for my return.
Okay, so ElJay called me and asked me to post. I am doing this with trepidation for a couple reasons. First and foremost, I don't post "goodbye" threads when I leave a forum, since it's typically intended, in my not-limited experience, as a plea to be asked to stay. I am not trying to be asked round for tea, I am replying to elucidate some of my reactions to Hatrack in a thread devoted to that topic.
Additionally, I don't want to burn bridges, since I am not entirely certain that I intend to decamp permanently. For the time being I wasn't feeling like this was the place for me.
I should point out that I am a career-driven man who has been out of work (permanent work at least) for nine months, and my psyche is a bit crumbly around the edges. I recognize that I may be more reactionary than is warranted.
Caveats lector aside, I'll try to sum up without naming names. I do not want to call people out individually. The "problem" as I see it seems more systemic than individual, and I do not want to preclude my future participation (as I have previously noted).
To begin with, as Eljay mentioned, I felt that my posts seemed to disappear into the ether. People in a thread would respond to points made by other posters, but my input would often elicit no reaction. My reaction to this phenomenon is undoubtedly egotistical--obviously, most people want to feel like their participation is important. Additionally, however, I felt like I was producing noise and not signal. If my contributions are not of value, then why post? I have participated in dozens of Internet fora over the years, both privately and professionally, and I know that the medium is fickle (a google search of my name turns up 650-odd hits, a few years ago it was more like 3000, and this is besides my various Internet aliases). If my participation is not strengthening a forum, I personally choose to move on and find somewhere that it will be.
Unfortunately, a lot of people seem to experience the same phenomenon here, as I have seen in recent threads when I have swung through to see what people are saying on Hatrack. The community seems to be a bit insular. Hey, that's your community--if you don't like it, it is your choice to change it, but I don't know how Hatrack could accomplish that consciously without being artificial.
Secondly, there is a distinct core of what people seem to regard as "Hatrack values," and participants who do not share those values are periodically the object of condemnation, or at least of snarky derision. This comes into sharp relief when a participant is so outside the Hatrack norm as to be publicly vilified. It is certainly within a community's perogative to attempt to enforce its own standards of behavior and participation. The insidious side effect of these community police actions, however, is that when a less-assertive participant sees this condemnation, it makes them leery of posting, since their views might not be up to the community standard. I do not agree with everything posted by some of the recent transgressors, but I do agree with some of what they have expressed, and the community reaction has served to make me feel less welcome. Again, your perogative as a community, just not what was working for me.
This is not unique to Hatrack, of course, and I have observed it often enough in my time on the Internet to recognize the metatrend when I encounter it. This is, in fact, a defining characteristic of a "community," in my experience. I am sure the core community at the Burning Man festival consider themselves accepting and open, but I'd imagine an "I love George W!" placard would be met with ostracization. Of course, Burning Man is now most likely frequented by some people just hoping to see naked "earthy" chicks, so a certain amount of ostracization is beneficial to the community. Not to mention the fact that said placard would undoubtedly be intended to incite negative reaction and not open dialog.
Next is the more controversial observation. Over time I have noticed that some frighteningly poor manners by longtime participants on Hatrack are generally tolerated, while even lesser offenses by relative newcomers are met with recursive condemnation. (By recursive, I mean that any one condemnation is typically joined by others building on previous condemnation.) This leads me to feel that manners are not the only reason people are condemned. If you do not share the aforementioned community values, then you are at least potentially not welcome, and as a result may be less likely to express any opinion that might be controversial in any small way. Bad behavior is a good reason to criticize others, but it is not, to my eye, actually the only reason people are being criticized. In fact, I have seen longtime participants follow up their own bad behavior with threats to leave the community, only to see them coaxed back with pleas of "don't leave." I am relatively certain that a similar sequence enacted by newer participants is bound to bear feeble fruit.
The appearance of what seems to be termed here the "metathreads" finally put me off my feed, so to speak. "What does Hatrack mean to you"-type threads are well and good for identifying who the "core" community is. Those threads often seemed to consist of passionate assertions that Hatrack is "open" to differing ideals, yet I could certainly think of many reasons to dispute those assertions. and the sentiment was somewhat diminished in contrast with the underlying message of those threads being that, "these new people are making me angry." I realize that many would deny that this is the intention, but that has been my observation, particularly as someone who already felt somewhat outside the community.
When, at last, I saw a metathread where one active participant was roundly excoriated for expressing (my summary, here) the opinion that Hatrack was pretty much a place like any other, and that it was something that could be done without, I felt that my time was better spent elsewhere, at least until the trend passed. Whatever that participant may or may not have done to exacerbate the situation with replies that fed the flames, the fact of the matter was that Hatrack didn't like to hear that it might not be all things to all people.
All of this is linked to a frustrating tendency on Hatrack to feed the trolls, so to speak. I realize that this criticism is seemingly at odds with my alienation at (apparently) being "underappreciated," but I wasn't trolling, just participating. People posting with the clear intent of inciting negative reaction are not necesarily going to come up empty, here. Many times I have wanted to post, "Do not feed the trolls," but an even moderately adept troll will find grist enough in that rejoinder. This trend seems to be a result of the other phenomena I have mentioned above.
Again, community perogative.
This is not to say by any means that I think Hatrack a den of vipers, boors, or isloationists. Many witty and intelligent things are expressed here every day, and this is a solid little community. I have been stopping by often enough that the forum root remains cached in my browser history, so the lack of a Hatrack bookmark in my toolbar becomes a more symbolic action than one might assume. I guess I'm only going on at length with this criticism because, hey, someone asked me directly. And the Hatrack community is interesting enough to deserve a thorough reply.
Hopefully I've not stepped on too many toes, here. I post this in hopes that it will help people understand the experience of forum "outsiders," not to incite community guilt or anger.
Note: I use the word community throughout. This is a loaded term in this postmodern world, but I feel it serves as a useful description of this social unit.
posted
There are definitely cliques but you don't have to be in one to have fun here. I wasn't in any for a long time. I even started one of the anti-clique threads last year.
I think where cliques get nasty is when you can tell someone is being mean to you in order to gain favor with someone else who doesn't like you. Other than that, it is just the case that some folks are closer to each other than others. If that weren't true, what is it we think we want?
Replying to I3: I used to get bothered by no one acknowledging my posts. But I realized that if no one bothers to attack them, everyone who posts after is presumed to have read them and basically agreed with them. A really well written post is actually less likely to evoke reply.
There have been several threads lately that if I went just by the thread title, sounded trollish. Even though it was an established poster, I decided "If I wouldn't take this from a green noob, I'm not going to take it from this person."
[ January 12, 2005, 02:08 AM: Message edited by: Trisha the Severe Hottie ]
Posts: 666 | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
I3 - That was a very well-thought-out and considerate post. You apparently signed on and posted during my quasi-hiatus, and I'm sorry I didn't get the opportunity to read more of your thoughts.
Posts: 7600 | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
I think you made a lot of good points, MrFunny. It is always good to be reminded that everyone here deserves to be judged based on their behavior, not their post count or their member number. However, the rudeness of old-timers is typically written in a more palatable way than some of what we get from newcomers. This is not to justify the different treatment, but people will react more strongly against, "u suxors becuz u believe stupid things like the existince of god," than against "Religious people hold irrational and illogical beliefs and therefore should not be allowed to indoctrinate children." The second is in some ways more frightening, but the first would be far less acceptable here. I concede that we put a lot of emphasis on style of expression as well as content. This is perhaps not entirely fair, but I admit that I'd rather not see the standards lowered. I'm too lazy to read a bunch of abbreviations and leetspeak.
You also make an excellent point about the chilling effect our behavior has on the lurkers or those who don't post frequently and aren't assertive. Perhaps we should make more of a point of noticing and welcoming new people. I haven't really done that in the past, and I'll make an attempt to do it in the future. I don't really plan to stop making the occasional snarky comment, though perhaps I'll pay more attention to where I aim them.
Thanks for your thoughts. I hope you'll stick around. I'll probably get you mixed up with my brother, who has a similar username, so if I say something that seems overly affectionate for a near-stranger, I probably just got confused .
Posts: 3546 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Huh. I suppose there probably are cliques here, but evidently, I'm too clueless to notice on my own. But then, IRL, I didn't much care, either.
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:A really well written post is actually less likely to evoke reply
Trisha, you hit the nail on the head. If I think, "Wow, I so totally agree, and they covered this from every possible angle" then I probably won't mention it in my reply. I've started trying to acknowledge posts that made me laugh, since I appreciate knowing when my [attempted] funny posts are successful. But yeah, if you post something and I don't reply to it, you can probably assume I was reasonably impressed. People also tend to post replies to the most recent posts in a thread, even if it's five pages long and this is their first post.
Edit: quidscribis, I haven't received any clique membership cards in the mail lately, and I really like it here. I guess I'm either not in one, or I'm totally oblivious to the social undercurrents here. Probably both.
posted
Cool! I'm in the Asian gang! That's really funny considering I usually have to tell other Asians that I'm Asian...
Posts: 3546 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
btw - I also thought Lucky4's post was especially interesting. I recognize your handle, of course, but I just now realized that you signed on a mere month before I did. It's like someone else silently having the same career.
And for what it's worth - I've posted on other forums, of course, and the only place I've ever been where newbie status was 'easy' ended up being about the most banal forum I'd ever seen. The places where I've earned my stripes, so to speak, have always been the most rewarding.
'cept Hatrack. I just rode Slash's coattails here.
posted
I'll admit to never making any special effort to acknowledge I3 because, frankly, I thought he was just another pseudonym for Jon Boy, what with the linguistic obsessions and all. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
I liked your post in general, I3, and I agree with most of it, but I do want to adress this:
quote: Whatever that participant may or may not have done to exacerbate the situation with replies that fed the flames, the fact of the matter was that Hatrack didn't like to hear that it might not be all things to all people.
I didn't see the thread, but I will say that responses like that don't mean that Hatrack doesn't like hearing it's not all things to all people. It means the people who responded don't like to think that Hatrack isn't all things to all people. I realize that, ultimately, Hatrack is the people who make it up, but unless the majority of people who post here responded that way, it isn't fair to state it in such a way as to say that the entire community agreed with the sentiment.
Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
Fair enough, PSI, but my point there is that the thread served to reinforce all the previous factors which had influenced my decision. I probably should have written: "Whatever that participant may or may not have done to exacerbate the situation with replies that fed the flames, the end result was that the Hatrack community appeared as if it didn't like to hear that Hatrack might not be all things to all people. Since it was not all things to me, I decided to move on."
Posts: 720 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
Int3, that was a fascinating post. I'll have to mull it over before I respond, but I wanted to let you know that I appreciated it.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote: I am relatively certain that a similar sequence enacted by newer participants is bound to bear feeble fruit.
I3, this is the only part of your post I disagree with. Witness Jonathan’s “Fare Thee Well” thread. It’s longer than some long-term members’ farewell threads, and unlike some long term members’ threads I don’t think he got a single “Don’t let the door hit your rump on the way out” post. We even had a deliberate and obvious troll post a goodbye thread and he got people asking him to stay. It’s the reason goodbye threads are such effective pleas for attention. Hatrack will beg anyone to stay. Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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