posted
Banna, maybe they meant not kosher for passover?
One guy at my school wouldn't use his card to swipe into the dorms during shabbat. I think he knocked and had someone down the hall come open the door for him.
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Yeah, pb-and-j is not kosher right now because of the bread, at the least (and possibly the jelly and peanut butter too, depending on if it has corn syrup or not, and whether the person in question is an Eastern European Jew or not).
I couldn't think of any other reason it isn't kosher though.
quote:...they all cried with one voice, saying: Yea, we believe all the words which thou hast spoken unto us...
This response of the crowd in unison occupies the text of four verses.
I thought it was interesting that such a large crowd could synchronize such a lengthy response, word for word.
I wondered if there is a Jewish tradition for oral recitation from the congregation, and if the text of such recitations has been recorded, and if such a Jewish text, if it exists, approximates the Book of Mormon text.
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I'm not sure I understand your question(s), but I'll do my best. If I'm not answering what you asked, let me know and I'll try again.
quote: I wondered if there is a Jewish tradition for oral recitation from the congregation
Certainly. The best example would be the Hallel, songs of praise, which is recited on the first day of each (lunar) month, and on the holidays. Most of it is recited responsively, with the person leading the prayers saying one part, and then the congregation either repeating it back OR responding with the next part.
But even in the daily prayers, there are short prayers like that. The Kedushah is responsive, so is the Kaddish.
As for possibly parallel verses, I can't make your link work. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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Well at least at my synagouge there is a lot of interaction between the rabbis and the congregation during the service. Frequently in the service the congregation will read outloud together (in English).
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Sorry about the broken link. That's wierd. LDS.org lets you set personal bookmarks for their online scriptures, but I guess it's tied to a browser cookie.
Rivka: are any of the congregation's recitations spontaneous?
As you may know, there is no recitation in LDS meetings, so the idea of the congregation talking during a meeting is foreign to me. Oh wait, we do say "amen" after each talk and prayer, but that's all.
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quote:I wondered if there is a Jewish tradition for oral recitation from the congregation, and if the text of such recitations has been recorded, and if such a Jewish text, if it exists, approximates the Book of Mormon text.
quote:are any of the congregation's recitations spontaneous?
If rivka doesn't mind, I can answer these. Our daily prayers are written in a book called a siddur. None of them are spontaneous.
It's interesting, how world views differ. As I was reading your post, I was thinking to myself that it would be the Book of Mormon that approximates text from the siddur and/or other Jewish texts as they pre-date the Book of Mormon by thousands of years.
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A friend recently pointed out this thread to me. Love it!
"And the past 2000 years worth of anti-Jewish actions that have been committed either in his name or in attempts to convert us haven't exactly helped things . ."
Let me personally apologize for all the stupid things Christians have done to Jews (and other faiths) over the years. I have never understood how we expected people to understand God's love at the end of a sword (or gun or laser beam for that matter).
posted
Rivka never minds help. And I agree with Mrs.M's answer.
djscngt, welcome to Hatrack. I'm glad you like the thread. I don't believe that all Christians are responsible for the actions of those who lived in the past -- I was simply explaining why Jews are often wary of Christianity. 2000 years of history is a difficult thing to get past, neh?
So while I don't believe that you need to apologize, I very much appreciate the spirit of your apology. Thank you. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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Rivka, you are amazing. Perhaps you could address the issue of messianic judaism. I'm curious how this is viewed withoin the overall Jewish community. Also, according to tradition does the government of Israel (i.e. Ariel Sharon's administration) have any religious authority/significance, or is it merely a political distinction. For that matter, how prominently does the stat of Israel figure in modern judaism?
Let me second djscngt's apology. Sometimes, we Christians can be really dumb.
quote: Perhaps you could address the issue of messianic judaism. I'm curious how this is viewed within the overall Jewish community.
There was a conversation between nfl and beverly on page 4 of this thread regarding messianic Judaism. Summary -- most of them are not Jews (about 80% or more of most congregations), but Christians trying to convert Jews to Christianity. So we don't view them particularly positively.
quote: Also, according to tradition does the government of Israel (i.e. Ariel Sharon's administration) have any religious authority/significance, or is it merely a political distinction. For that matter, how prominently does the stat of Israel figure in modern judaism?
It is quite clearly a secular government, and has little, if any, religious significance. However, the Land of Israel, under any government, has tremendous significance to Jews in every era. It is our homeland, the direction toward which we pray, and we pray -- as we always have -- for peace within its borders.
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quote:...it would be the Book of Mormon that approximates text from the siddur...
Sure. I'm not asking anyone of the Jewish faith to concede that these Book of Mormon people actually existed, and I'm not trying to convert anyone to Christianity. I'm trying to get a feel for how "Jewish" is this response of the congregation as recorded in the Book of Mormon.
If the congregation's response is not at all typical of practicing Jews, then I am left to conclude that the Holy Spirit gave each person in the congregation the same words of the covenant and prompted them to recite the words aloud. I don't know if there are any recorded cases of such a miraculous simultaneous recitation in the Christian Bible or in any other recorded scripture. Maybe Joshua with the trumpeters at the walls of Jericho...
It would be interesting to know if there was a precedent for this.
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Skil, it may be that the English translation of what they said is considerably more verbose than what was actually said. Or that the poetic structure of his speech could only be responded to in the affirmative by that response.
P.S. Just in verse two, there seems to be an inconsistency between them crying with one voice and the king sending among them. The former suggests what you describe, the latter suggests more a process of extracting information.
Of course this story was abridged and then translated.
Actually, we do - twice a year, the holiest times of the year, on Yom Kippur and Rosh Hashanah. Why not more often? Well, I believe kneeling during prayer (among Jews) was once more common, long ago; I think part of the reason it was stopped was because so many other religions adopted the practice, but I'm not absolutely sure on that. Hopefully Rivka knows more; otherwise, I can ask one of my brothers later tonight, when they get home. (Also, Jews are forbidden to kneel on stone floors, as it might seem as though we're worshipping stone, as was common in days gone by.)
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I remember learning about this a long time ago. As I recall (and a quick web-search confirmed), this question is actually the subject of extensive debate in the Gemara. However, the conclusion seems to correspond to what I found here:
quote: What distinguishes the Days of Awe from all other festivals is that here, and only here, do HaShem's people kneel. They do not kneel to confess a fault or to pray for forgiveness of sins, acts to which this festival is primarily dedicated. They kneel only in beholding the immediate nearness of HaShem, hence on an occasion which transcends the earthly needs of today. The congregation now rises to the feeling of HaShem's nearness as it sees in memory the Temple service of old, and visualizes especially the moment when the priest, on Yom HaKippurim (the Day of the Atonements) this once in all the year, pronounced the ineffable Name of HaShem, and the assembled people fell on their knees.
Yeshayah (Isaiah) 45:22-25 "Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am HaShem, and there is no other. By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear. They will say of me, 'In HaShem alone are righteousness and strength.'" All who have raged against him will come to him and be put to shame. But in HaShem all the descendants of Israel will be found righteous and will exult.
That is, we do not kneel in ordinary, everyday prayer, when we pray to confess sins, ask forgiveness, and so on. Only when we especially feel His nearness -- as we do on the High Holy Days -- do we kneel (as opposed to bowing, which IS part of the daily prayers).
This also, I think, answers the question of why it was common in the times past -- when the Temple existed -- but not now. For surely when in the Holy Temple, His awesome presence was felt -- and so they knelt.
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Again differences between Reform and Orthodox. We never kneel. Not as a matter of idealology, we just don't.
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skillery, I wasn't trying to be snippy and I hope I didn't come across that way. I certainly didn't mean it in a my-tradition-is-older-than-yours-and-you-must-acknowledge-it-or-else way.
I really respect and admire your curiosity.
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rivka, would you mind popping into the 5 things that PISS me off working in restaurants thread? Jaiden is working at a hotel that serves pork at Kosher functions and I think that you are by far the best person to explain how horrible that is. Thanks.
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Peanut butter and jelly notk kosher? Well Peanut butter is kosher... Jelly is kosher... Bread is certainly kosher... yeah, since i ate peanut butter and jelly for lunch yesterday, i can say with certainty it is quite kosher. Perhaps from a vendor or something, where maybe extra things were added in bread and stuff, it might not be kosher. But kosher bread? yeah, thats a kosher sandwich.
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Armoth, the peanut butter and jelly sandwich question came up during Pesach . . .
Anyway, most brands of jelly are not kosher (although quite a few are) -- and almost no grape jelly is; some peanut butter is not kosher (although all the national brands I know of are); and in places outside NYC, almost none of the bread sold in the average supermarket is kosher.
So, the average PB&J sandwich is presumably NOT kosher -- even when it's not Pesach.
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*Shrug* Thats not completely true. First of all, many of the breads in the super markey may be kosher, but dont want to pay commission to the OU or some other hechsher. Though my family purchases strictly OU certified items, they are technically kosher. Same goes with Grape Jelly, you have to look for the OU on it, as you must with Peanut butter. Thats the way everything is. In my response, i was only stating that PB and J CAN be kosher, not that it always is (like a fruit, or a vegetable). In fact, most store items needs to be checked for the OU. So yes, PB and J sandwhiches are kosher. Not from your average vendor, but you could put your own one together with the kosher ingredients.
Realize that god didnt make brands of grain, fruit or vegetables non-kosher. Only living creatures. So if your things happen to include non kosher ingredients from those creatures...
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Considering that the average loaf of bread almost certainly contains at least small amounts of animal fats (almost certainly not kosher), and possibly milk as well, not to mention (small amounts, generally) of a number of other non-kosher items, I think there's a lot more than they "don't want to pay commission to the OU or some other hechsher." Especially since said "commission" is a tiny fraction of most companies' costs. They are NOT usually "technically kosher."
And with grape jelly (and anything else containing grape juice), there is very little available that is kosher -- technically or otherwise.
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yes, but its silly to say that all PB and Js arent kosher. The average chicken is not kosher because not shechted properly!
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Who said that? I was just trying to explain why someone could have claimed that a particular PB&J sandwich -- or many such, or even most such -- might not be kosher.
And definitely, most chickens aren't kosher. Which explains why I don't buy Foster Farms. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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Ok, I've apparently displayed my ignorance on a different thread. I'll ask you to help me understand. In a thread Paul Goldner started he said his religion was jewish and his faith was atheist. I questioned that. A subsequent poster indicated that was ignorance on my part. My problem is that if you don't believe in the existance of God, how can you claim to be a devotee of a specific religion that inherently worships a God.
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Personally I would say that he is Jewish in an Ethnic sense and Aethist in a religious sense. This is wear you really have issue of semantics because Jews unlike members universalizing relgions such as Christiananity and Islam are bound not just by religious beliefs but by genetics as well.
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To elaborate on nfl's answer, Judaism traditionally defines someone as Jewish if their mom is Jewish (or they convert). Period.
To be a practicing Jew -- or a believing one, which may or may not be the same thing -- is an entirely different matter.
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Let me ask you this rivka, if a man and a woman both of non jewish descent went through the process of converting to the jewish faith, would any offspring be jewish regardless of personal beliefs?
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punwit, I believe it would only take the woman converting, and yes, I believe the children would be considered Jewish.
It's one thing (of many) that I've learned dating a Jewish woman (who tends to be a cultural Jew more than a believing Jew). Judaism is a family, a nation, and a religion, all rolled up into one thing.
Judaism has many millenia-old traditions, based in a theology that some descendants of the religion may not agree with anymore, theologically, but identify strongly with in a cultural/traditional sort of way. It's a way to have a connection all the way back to your ancient ancestors! That's powerful stuff, and that's before taking into account the veracity of a Godhead.
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Bok's right. Although perhaps I should clarify (and I hope I don't offend anyone) that Orthodox Jews (I am one) would only consider someone who converted Orthodox to be Jewish. But yes, they and their descendants for all generations (assuming matrilineal descent) would be Jewish.
OTOH, no Orthodox Beis Din (Jewish court) would convert a person who did not intend to keep the commandments. As I explained on a previous page of this thread, we believe that non-Jews who keep the Noachide laws also have a place in heaven. So it would be better for a non-Jew to fulfill those obligations, rather than accept new ones (by becoming Jewish) and NOT fulfill them.
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I don't know WHY the PB&J sandwich wasn't kosher. I just overheard these children talking about it while in a waiting room and it was a very intriguing conversation. They were very concerned. And perhaps it is because the bread was yeast bread and it was during Passover. But they shouldn't have even had any yeast bread in their house during passover I don't think. Sorry I don't know any more specifics.
I'm sure in the area of Chicago where they were, kosher jelly is readily available due to a high Jewish population concentration.
My other question is, do rabbis get paid? I thought I heard somewhere they were supposed to have a job and support themselves in addition too their spiritual duties but I don't know for sure. It definitely seems like if they are running around and inspecting resturaunts all day they should get paid for it.
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Rabbi's get paid. QUite well, too, depending on the congregation. The rabbi at my temple is retiring soon, but his current salary is in excess of 100,000.
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If an event were to be held in an area where supervised kosher catering was not available, is there anything that could be served that an orthodox Jew could eat? Plain fruits and veggies? Or are those trouble once they’re cut up and/or cooked?
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Oh, and might the Rebbetzin be free on Monday morning, June 28, to meet up with a friend who will be on her way from the LA airport to San Bernadino?
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Rabbis who are the spiritual leaders of a congregation get paid. In large reform and conservative congregations, that is their only job.
Many orthodox rabbis who are spiritual leaders of congregations may have other jobs. For example, my rabbi (and his wife) both teach at a local Jewish dayschool. I also had a rabbi who was a clinical psychologist and saw clients during the week.
In addition, in the orthodox community, many men study for and obtain "smicha" to be a rabbi, but have other careers. So they are not necessarily paid for being a "rabbi" per se.
[ May 13, 2004, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: Ela ]
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I have a question about the kosher foods you buy in the stora nd the organizations that certify them like OU, OK, Star K, etc. Is any of these organizations considered more reputable than the others?
rivka, Ela, and others, if you see a kosher symbol on a package, do you trust it implicitly or would you do research to ensure that the product is, in fact kosher?
I'm asking because, while I'm not Jewish, I'm contemplating adopting a kosher diet for health reasons.
Any advice you all can give me would be appreciated. Posts: 4569 | Registered: Dec 2003
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quote:rivka, Ela, and others, if you see a kosher symbol on a package, do you trust it implicitly or would you do research to ensure that the product is, in fact kosher?
Each Kashrus organization has a different symbol. According to the individual's stringency in Kashrus related matters, they'll trust certain organizations, and not others. However, once they trust a certain organization, if the symbol is present, the food is trusted to be kosher. (Of course, a person may consider one kashrus agency to be reliable when it comes to everything except meat, or everything except Passover products.) Since you're only concerned with health-related matters, and not kashrus, you probably don't have to be too concerned about which symbol the package has, as long as it's one you recognize. For a list of reliable symbols.... I'll try to find one and get back to you.
About a Rabbi getting paid: "Rabbi" has two different conotations in Orthodox circles. The first refers to the spiritual leader of a congregation, and such a Rabbi does get paid. However, depending on the congregation, it may not be very much, so some Rabbis also have other jobs, such as teaching Jewish subjects in a high school, etc. "Rabbi" can also refer to anyone who has semicha, which means that they've been tested and found to be knowledgable enough about Jewish law to be awarded the "title" of Rabbi. Such a "Rabbi" may work only in the secular world. Alternatively, such a Rabbi may work in a Jewish field such as being a Mashgiach, for which he is paid. A Rabbi who is the spiritual leader of a congregation is very rarely a Mashgiach.
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reader, thanks for the information. I asked the question because there are so many different organizations that certify food as kosher. Do all of them use the same set of standards when judging whether a product is kosher? Is anyone else as confused as I am?
I just thought of another question. Is there somewhere I can find information about the health benefits of a kosher diet?
edited for spelling and to add the following:
Should the word kosher be capitalized? If so, I apologize if anyone has taken offense. I wasn' sure if it should be capitalized.
quote: My other question is, do rabbis get paid? I thought I heard somewhere they were supposed to have a job and support themselves in addition too their spiritual duties but I don't know for sure. It definitely seems like if they are running around and inspecting restaurants all day they should get paid for it.
"Supposed to" is probably too strong. It is recommended/preferred that people (anyone, whether they have s'micha (rabbinical ordination) or not) not make a living solely from the fact that they are a Torah scholar.
However, no rabbi of a congregation simply gets paid to sit around and learn. They have many duties which would clearly constitute "other work." Then again, most Orthodox congregational rabbis don't make enough to survive on that salary alone, and usually do have another job. Most commonly, they teach in one of the local day schools. Although I know one whose "day job" is real estate law.
And Ela explained the difference between being a rabbi (having s'micha) and having the position.
As far a being a mashgiach, one actually need not have s'micha to be one; however, the person in charge (to whom any questions or issues that come up are addressed) does need to be.
Just to muddy the waters some more, "Rabbi" is also sometimes used as an honorific for men who don't actually have s'micha -- especially if they are teachers.
quote: If an event were to be held in an area where supervised kosher catering was not available, is there anything that could be served that an orthodox Jew could eat? Plain fruits and veggies? Or are those trouble once they’re cut up and/or cooked?
First off, might it be possible to bring in a (sealed) prepared meal? Places like Kosher Meals to Go deliver all over the US, and if provided with a specific location, I can try to find out what the closest supplier of such meals might be. I have had no problem getting kosher meals provided to me in such exotic locales as Santa Barbara.
If that is not a realistic option, then FRESH fruit and vegetables are generally considered acceptable IF AND ONLY IF they have not been cooked at all, and they were cut using a knife that has ONLY ever been used for fruit and vegetables (which is required by commercial food preparers anyway). Not all individuals will be ok with this -- probably good to check with them.
quote: Oh, and might the Rebbetzin be free on Monday morning, June 28, to meet up with a friend who will be on her way from the LA airport to San Bernadino?
Might is the operative word -- what does "morning" mean, exactly? But I would love to, if we can manage it.
quote: have a question about the kosher foods you buy in the store nd the organizations that certify them like OU, OK, Star K, etc. Is any of these organizations considered more reputable than the others?
rivka, Ela, and others, if you see a kosher symbol on a package, do you trust it implicitly or would you do research to ensure that the product is, in fact kosher?
As reader mentioned, there certainly are some that are more reputable than others. I carry around a list of those that are reliable (according to a rabbi in Los Angeles who is an expert). List of symbols
quote: I'm contemplating adopting a kosher diet for health reasons.
Um, bad news. A kosher diet is not inherently any healthier than many other options. We keep kosher for spiritual reasons. (To anyone who would like to claim otherwise, I have one word for you: gribenes.)
quote: A Rabbi who is the spiritual leader of a congregation is very rarely a Mashgiach.
*shrug* Perhaps in your experience. I know quite a few.
quote:Um, bad news. A kosher diet is not inherently any healthier than many other options. We keep kosher for spiritual reasons. (To anyone who would like to claim otherwise, I have one word for you: gribenes.)
posted
Ok, my single moms group meets from 9:30 to 11:00 (and it's the last meeting, so I'm loathe to skip it or leave early). But 11:00 to noon is all yours! Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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I thought that kosher meat meant that the animal was killed 'with less suffering' or some such, but from a brief glance online it seems that is an incorrect assumption. What is the purpose of the kosher laws concerning animal slaughter? Do you think kosher meat in the US is prepared with that purpose in mind?
And a general question... is there 'less suffering' meat out there?
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quote: I thought that kosher meat meant that the animal was killed 'with less suffering' or some such, but from a brief glance online it seems that is an incorrect assumption.
Well, that is essentially correct. However, the laws really only effect the actual killing of the animal (knife must be exceedingly sharp, etc.), and not really how the animal is treated prior (although causing certain injuries will render the animal not kosher).
quote: The process of Sh'chitah involves the use of an incredibly sharp, perfectly smooth blade (known as a Cha'lef) to sever the trachea, esophagus, and neck arteries of the animal as quickly and as smoothly as possible, thus ensuring that the animal does not suffer.
quote: What is the purpose of the kosher laws concerning animal slaughter?
Fulfilling the commandment in Deut. 12:21.
quote: Do you think kosher meat in the US is prepared with that purpose in mind?
posted
One website I saw mentioned that the animals are strapped up above ground, dangling from their hind legs, in order to observe the no-touching-blood/other-blood rules... The site unsurprisingly claims that this is terrifying for the animal.
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posted
I just wanted to add, on the discussion of rabbi, a distinction that is very important. Priest : Christianity :: Rabbi : Judaism is an incorrect analogy. Rabbis are not part of ritual jewish practice nor are they necessary in the service of god. Rabbi is a educational/spiritual guide, not necessarily the leader of spiritual practices and rituals. The Torah designates the ritual practices in the temple to the Kohen (Priest). Rabbis were created as a tradition of education and guidances, starting with Moses, who gave semicha (literally means leaning, the giving over of his teaching) to Joshua and he to the 70 elders, and they gave semicha to the next generation, and soforth. This tradition of Semicha though said to be disrupted after the destruction of the second temple began again. Basically, anyone can become a Rabbi, and the torah encourages one to find themselves a rabbi, however, only for guidance. In Shul/Temple, every male member of the community can fulfill the ritual practices. Anyone can lead the prayer service, anyone can read from the torah, etc. The community is very actively involved in the Orthodox shul. This is not entirely true for the temple in Jerusalem, where only the Kohanim (priests) can ritually serve god by performing the rituals. Only the Levites can perform and sing their praise on the steps to the temple.
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Suneun, I cannot say that this is definitely untrue -- I honestly don't know. However, from my link above:
quote: Second, if the animal moves its neck during the Sh'chitah, the animal is also rendered non-Kosher since the smooth cutting of the Sh'chitah has been compromised. Ensuring the stability of the animal is not an easy task, since Halacha prohibits the "stunning" of the animal prior to slaughter, a practice common in non-Kosher slaughter.
Hanging them by their feet would seem to make this very difficult.
Now, AFTER the animal has been killed, I believe it is hung by its feet to allow the blood to drain.
*googles*
I found a site that makes the claim you mention. I find it interesting that the author is so certain that stunning the animal (which is neither instantaneous nor painless, as the author implies) is seen as the lesser evil.
In any case, if this is true (and as I said, I don't know if it is), the fault lies with the FDA requirements. In the past, animals were WALKED in to be killed.
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And I agree with Mrs.M's answer.![[Hail]](graemlins/hail.gif)
Perhaps you could address the issue of messianic judaism. I'm curious how this is viewed withoin the overall Jewish community. Also, according to tradition does the government of Israel (i.e. Ariel Sharon's administration) have any religious authority/significance, or is it merely a political distinction. For that matter, how prominently does the stat of Israel figure in modern judaism?![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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