posted
Okay, I have to admit that I have only read the first page of this thread, but I'm betting no one else has asked this question.
It is the 50th Anniversary of Brown vs. the Board of Education today (...I think - CNN is doing a special on it tonight, and there was all sorts of stuff about it this weekend) and so all weekend long there were long coversations about black education by mostly black panelists. One theme that popped up more than once was that African Americans have possibly developed a culture of anti-intellectualism.
My question is this: has the Jewish religion developed a culture of pro-intellectualism? My only experience with this is through movies and books and hearing a lot about Jews studying the Torah and the other books and needing to learn Hebrew for Temple and for their bar and bat mitzvahs, etc. And movies where Jewish people sit around after/during dinner discussing certain scripture passages and what they mean. Not to say that I think all Jewish families do this - I have no idea.
Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Ok that makes sense, that is a married, not married thing, and that it only applies to Jews so if you were only under the Noach Laws it doesn't matter. So it wouldn't matter if you did buy hair from another married woman as long as it wasn't offered in any sort of idolatrous sacrifice before hand.
Thanks for the clarification. You are awesome experts!
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Armoth:"you must understand the reason they are supposed to cover their hair. A man is NOT allowed to sleep with a married woman. It is one of the gravest of sins. Therefore, to ease a man's desire, married woman are moreso required to dress modestly when they are out of the house."
Really? Where is it written that this is the reason? Or is it written at all?
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No, in that you're assuming that there is a single homogeneous Jewish culture, which is far from true. Intellectualism is admired and presented as a goal to children more in some segments than in others. And it is a cultural issue, not really a religious one.
Glad we were able to clear things up for you, AJ.
quote: Armoth:"you must understand the reason they are supposed to cover their hair. A man is NOT allowed to sleep with a married woman. It is one of the gravest of sins. Therefore, to ease a man's desire, married woman are moreso required to dress modestly when they are out of the house."
Really? Where is it written that this is the reason? Or is it written at all?
I can just about guarantee that it's in the Gemara, and probably in the Mishna (the two make up the Talmud, and the Gemara is an explanation of the very succinct Mishna). Now, I have never taken any classes in Gemara, but if I had to guess, it would be somewhere in the Tractate Nashim. I can find out definitively, if you wish.
If you are asking for a citation out of Tanach (what you would call the Old Testament), there may or may not be one, although there certainly are some allusions. Jews consider both the Written Law and Oral Law (which became the Talmud) to be binding.
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posted
Its definatly in seder nashim. Yeah, Rivka is right its in the talmud. It is an issue of tzniut, so it might actually be in tractate nidah. I can find out for sure tommorow.
Posts: 1604 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I can't remember who had asked me a while ago about online resources to learn Hebrew -- I think it might have been a couple people.
Anyway, I though I'd pass along info from one of my other boards about a great (FREE! ) resource.
quote: Yahoo's SelfStudyHebrew group will be starting a new round about the beginning of May, using Weingreen's "Practical Grammar of Classical Hebrew" as a text. If you're interested, join the group (groups.yahoo.com/group.SelfStudyHebrew) and look there for details. (Note the focus is on grammar, and translation from Hebrew to English; you'll also build up some vocabulary as you go. It will not teach you modern conversational Hebrew; there's another subgroup there using a different textbook, Hayesod, which is better for that, and there might be a new round of that starting later.)
quote: June 1, 2004 Orthodox Jews Worry Water Isn't Kosher By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Filed at 9:21 p.m. ET
NEW YORK (AP) -- A glassful of cold New York City tap water not kosher? It may be true -- and just in case, restaurants and bakeries operated under Orthodox Jewish law were advised Tuesday to use filters that can ensure water purity.
The problem: tiny harmless creatures called copepods. The little organisms are crustaceans and therefore not considered kosher.
As stores in heavily orthodox Brooklyn reported a run on water filters and rabbis considered whether additional measures were necessary, the Central Rabbinical Council issued its edict for businesses.
``We have given out a ruling that they should filter their water,'' said the council's Rabbi Yitzchok Glick. ``We are still in the middle of deliberations about exactly the issues and the Jewish law.''
Under Jewish law, the eating of crustaceans -- aquatic animals with skeletons outside their bodies, including shrimp, crabs and lobsters -- is barred.
Rabbi Abraham Zimmerman, of the Orthodox Satmar sect, said the recent discovery of the copepods was a small hardship, but he called on the city to help in making its water kosher.
``We hope the city will do something to purify and filter the water to accommodate a few hundred thousand Orthodox, observant Jews,'' Zimmerman said.
But the Department of Environmental Protection, which runs the reservoirs, said that the copepods are impossible to do away with and that they deliver health benefits to the reservoir.
``When it comes to delivery, if there is a spike and you are not comfortable with what you see in your water, all we can recommend is a commercial filter, which will effectively filter them out,'' DEP spokesman Charles Sturcken said.
Another Brooklyn rabbi, of the Lubavitcher group, said many religious leaders were advising their Orthodox followers to buy water filters if they can.
For those who can't afford filters, the water can be run through a double cloth to remove the copepods, Zimmerman said.
The problem became known only two weeks ago in another dispute over kosher product.
An Israeli company was accused by some customers of selling vegetables contaminated with insects, a violation of kosher laws. The company insisted the bugs were introduced when the vegetables were washed in New York.
Several Orthodox Jews then put the city's tap water under a microscope, turning up the millimeter-long creatures. The ensuing flap was particularly surprising, given New York's reputation for great-tasting water.
A recent Zagat survey found that seven out of 10 New York diners preferred tap to bottled water.
City officials were adamant that the creatures posed no threat to anyone's physical health, although the mental well-being of the Orthodox community was another matter.
``Pertaining to households, if they have to filter the water, we don't have an exact ruling at this point,'' said Glick.
The article as it appears online is not the same article by Michael Brick which I read in my delivered paper last night, unfortunately, cause I liked that article better.
We are talking about zooplankton, here, microscopic organisms.
According to Jonanthon Cohen, a Duke University student who is writing a doctoral dissertation on these creatures and was quoted in Brick's article, "If you take a gulp of water you might get a couple. But it's not like you're ingesting thousands of them."
Michael Brick, in the article in my home-delivered paper goes on to ask, "What defines an insect? Does seeing one through a microscope constitute seeing one for the purposes of kosher law?"
Apparently, some are running out and buying filters, and others are taking a wait and see attitude.
Personally, I really think you can make yourself too crazy.
I agree with a Laser Shum, of Midwood, Brooklyn who who was also quoted in the article. He still drinks the tap water, and said, "If you take a microscope, you'll see a lot of things you don't want to see."
That sounds like sense, to me. Even filtered, distilled water can have microorganisms in it.
So, rivka, what do you think? Posts: 5771 | Registered: Nov 2000
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I has a question about the preparation of kosher food for guests by non-Jews (or Jews that don't keep kosher).
It's relatively straightforward to buy kosher ingrediants, especially around here. Having done that, what must be done to ensure the meal that's prepared is kosher? I know about not mixing meat and dairy, and I could use disposable dishes for broiling meat. What other preparation issues are there? Would an Orthodox person feel comfortable eating a meal if I outlined how it was prepared, or would they still want to bring prepared foods?
Dagonee PS, I'd use a water filter, too.
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posted
Dag, be very careful about the meat and dairy; you ideally need separate silverware and plates, and you shouldn't use the same burner/oven to cook both for the same meal. Also, don't use the same implements to cook both. I'm sure it can get even more complicated than this, but I know these are some of the things my girlfriend did/supervised at her previous job.
My girlfriend always had fun dealing with the 2 separate kitchens at the MIT Hillel (one dairy, one meat).
posted
Knew about the silverware and plates, didn't know about the separate burners (although I assumed a grill would be a problem if it were ever used for cheeseburgers). How do people who keep Kosher deal with rental units where the previous occupant surely cooked meat and dairy on the stove? Do they not rent, or is there a way to "reset" the kitchen to make it OK?
Are paper plates and disposable utensils OK? I think the easiest thing would be to keep a spare grill around that's never used for anything but meat, and serve everything on Chinette. But I don't know if there are requirements for blessing the kitchen or anything like that.
Dagonee Edit: I guess I'm looking for the least complicated way to prepare and serve a kosher meal for guests.
posted
Dag, I would suggest that you ask your guests what would be acceptable to them and what they will need, as different Jews have different criteria on what they would consider acceptable.
[ June 02, 2004, 11:39 AM: Message edited by: Ela ]
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posted
Well, it's hypothetical for now - my interest is as much culinary as cultural/religious. Would anyone here mind saying what they would find acceptable or not? At least then I'd know I'm proposing something reasonable to the guests, and not ignoring some basic requirement I don't know about.
You wrote that "We are talking about zooplankton, here, microscopic organisms." In the article, the bugs are described as "millimeter-long creatures." I hate to break it to you, but millimeter-long is not microscopic. Of course if the bugs were really microscopic they wouldn't be an issue; that's a given. The problem is that they're actually fairly big, considering. My brother mentioned, I think, that if the bugs can be seen by the ordinary eye after being magnified only 3X, then it counts as a "bug" (or crustaceans in this case) and therefore cannot be eaten.
Dagonee - Are you Jewish? Because if you're not, than you can't cook the meal altogether, unless you can find a friendly neighborhood Jew to turn on the fire for you.
That aside....
Well, first of all, you wouldn't be allowed to use pots that had ever been used before. You can get disposable grills for very little, though, if you were so inclined. If you somehow had Kosher pots, using the stovetop for either milk or meat (though not both at the same time, of course)wouldn't be a problem, so long as you first left the fire (or electricity) on at the highest temperature possible for about five minutes or so first. (That's what my family does when we use a rental unit.) To make your oven kosher, theoretically, you'd have to clean it out throughly and then put it on the self-cleaning cycle overnight. A grill that was used for nothing but meat wouldn't be good enough; it would have had to have been used for only Kosher meat; again, a disposable grill (those aluminum pan grills) would be the best bet. As I think you know, the utensils would all have to be new as well, and obviously you couldn't use the same for milk and meat.
All that said, most Orthodox Jews are very, very careful about what they eat, so even if you tried to accomodate them, they wouldn't be willing to eat food that you had cooked. However, if you provided all the appropriate disposable utensils and so forth, they'd probably be willing to cook the food themselves at your house rather than bringing it along with them.
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quote:Dagonee - Are you Jewish? Because if you're not, than you can't cook the meal altogether, unless you can find a friendly neighborhood Jew to turn on the fire for you.
Really? A Jewish person has to light the fire? I'd never heard that before. That's why I asked.
The rest pretty much goes along with my expectations - the disposable mini-grill is pretty much what I was thinking.
The part about running the stove and oven to clean it is interesting, too. I knew there had to be some way to accomodate rentals and such.
Thanks for the great info. It looks like a mini do-it-yourself grilling party is the only feasible way to handle this.
I'm assuming someone who chooses to follow these rules is used to helping hosts provide for them properly. I can't imagine an Orthodox Jew shy about explaining the requirements could ever spend the night with friends.
Dagonee Edit: I just realized I breezed past part of Ela's earlier post - I would of course ask a guest what they would be comfortable with.
posted
Ela, if they are "millimeters long," they would be visible -- although likely not discernible as insects/crustaceans/whatever. My understanding has always been that microscopic critters were not an issue (otherwise I have some bad news about diatoms ); however, I think that is the precise issue that has to be resolved: whether these are microscopic or visible.
If I lived in NY, and/or were told by my rav to use a filter, I would do so -- it's not that difficult, and I use a filter for drinking water (for taste reasons) anyway. But it would be more in the nature of a precaution than anything else.
Dagonee, reader outlined the issues pretty well, I think. (Although I differ on a few details: I'd heat burners for 15 minutes, and ovens with a real self-cleaning cycle (defined as going above a certain temperature for a minimum time) needn't be cleaned beforehand. Those that lack the cycle (like mine ) do need thorough cleaning, and then to be turned as high as they go for 1-2 hours, not overnight.)
quote: I'm assuming someone who chooses to follow these rules is used to helping hosts provide for them properly. I can't imagine an Orthodox Jew shy about explaining the requirements could ever spend the night with friends.
posted
Really? They have the circled K on them (or did last time I checked, which was years ago). I'd be reallly upset if they've become non-Kosher at some point in the near past. Even though I just buy them because they taste best.
posted
Dagonee, contrary to HN's (very annoying!) ads, they are NOT kosher -- at least not by Orthodox standards. (Triangle K is not reliable -- again, by Orthodox standards.)
Ela, I don't know. I just heard about this five minutes ago! I didn't say I wouldn't drink NY water anymore -- I would, unless I were specifically told by my rav not to. OTOH, if all that is required to alleviate the doubt is a filter, I would use one in my own home. Wouldn't feel the need to bring one with me everywhere I went, though.
posted
Then they're flat out lying - they claim to be certified by Triangle and Associates. Or is triangle K not reliable?
By the way, I'm just really curious about all this, since I'm going through a cooking phase right now and have always been interested in Judaism. I hope these questions don't seem disrespectful at all. They're not meant to be.
posted
Dag, Hebrew National are not considered kosher by any of the orthodox Jews I know. We don't eat them either. Shofar franks aren't kosher either.
rivka, yes, I agree with your last post about the water. Except that I might not go to the extent of using a filter, if I lived in NY, probably I wouldn't - though I would consult with my rabbi, of course. Posts: 5771 | Registered: Nov 2000
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As far as the triangle-K's site, I find many of their statements to be misleading at best. And they don't know the difference between "it's" and "its"!
*checks* Ok, apparently the triangle-K has only been supervising them since February of this year, so I guess it's an improvement from having NO supervision. I still would not eat 'em.
posted
Triangle K is not really considered a reliable kashrut supervision by many orthodox Jews, so, again, you would have to ask the Jews who are eating the products.
Our rabbi in NJ did not trust them, and we avoid their products, especially since there are so many with a more reliable supervision to be found.
Edit: Actually, I remember finding out that Hebrew National hotdogs were supervised by Triangle K - my hubby and I were investigating which kosher hotdogs we could get. He said the same as rivka - he still wouldn't eat them.
[ June 02, 2004, 07:01 PM: Message edited by: Ela ]
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posted
I don't know the current specifics as to HN -- or any Tri-K-supervised product, actually. (Oh, except for Motts' apple-juice.) However, the before-February issues with HN were (AFAIK):
Rabbinic "supervision" amounted to an ingredient check -- and nothing else.
Said check was done ONCE, and never repeated or updated.
Even after the "supervising" rabbi's death, the product continued to bear the claim of his supervision for some time. (months? years? I don't know.)
As far as the Tri-K (and other unreliable supervisions) go, the possible issues (and as I said, I don't know which are specific to them) include:
Mashgichim not properly trained and/or not considered attentive enough to various (or specific) issues.
Not enough mashgichim, and therefore no way that they are checking the supervised plants on a regular basis.
Reliance on various ingredients, leniencies in applying certain rules, taking leniencies that applied in specific circumstances and applying them in different circumstances.
For more details of the laws of kashrus (or kashrut, if one prefers that pronunciation) and their commercial applications, look here, here, and here.
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posted
Well, I don't want to support a company that engages in fraudulant practices, even if they're hot dogs are yummy and even if I don't care about the particular attribute of their product they're lying about.
posted
Well, I'm not comfortable saying that they quite meet the definition of fraudulent. Misleading, yes, definitely. Deliberately so? Hard to know. Fraudulently so? I don't think I would want to have to make that case. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Ela - I just wanted to point out that if the bugs were actually a millimeter long, they'd definitely be visible. A millimeter is a measurement on most rulers, and is actually of some significant size. Even if the bugs are only a fifth of a millimeter long, they'd still be visible under strong lighting. To be honest, though, I have no idea what size the bugs actually are - I took the millimeter measurement straight from the article you linked to. Posts: 196 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
I have no opinion of the kosher-ness of NYC drinking water (um..not Jewish), but I just wanted to compliment rivka on her delightful exclamation points. Copepods! indeed.
I love this thread. Fascinating. Thank you to every participant. Posts: 1545 | Registered: May 2002
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posted
reader, thanks for your explanation of what you meant. I had the impression, from reading the article I have an hand (not the AP one posted online) that these particular copepods are not visible to the naked eye. But since the NY Times online didn't post the story of its own writer that appeared in the print version of the paper, you wouldn't be able to know that unless you had read the NY Times article yourself. I admit I didn't read the online version that carefully.
Great links, rivka. Posts: 5771 | Registered: Nov 2000
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posted
Oh, and Dag, with regard to the Triangle K issue, my rabbi particularly cited rivka's second point:
quote:Not enough mashgichim, and therefore no way that they are checking the supervised plants on a regular basis.
I wouldn't call it intentional fraud, by any stretch of the imagination. It's a question of what a given Jew is able to accept in terms of how careful the supervision is. And I would definitely want more careful supervision where meat products are involved.
Posts: 5771 | Registered: Nov 2000
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posted
Agreed, Ela. Although this paragraph (among others) is at best misleading.
quote: The Triangle symbol is a patented and trademarked logo that signifies "kashruth" (kosher) as defined by the most stringent Jews who follow Orthodox Jewish Law. Kosher certification with the Triangle means that a product is certified kosher and recognized as such. The organization offers it's rabbinical supervision and certification on any ingredient or product that meets the strictest criteria of what makes such items kosher. Triangle is a symbol of integrity representing the most trusted and reliable name in strict rabbinical food certification and supervision. (emphases mine)
posted
Yeah, I noticed that paragraph on the site, too, rivka. It made me raise my eyebrows to say the least.
Posts: 5771 | Registered: Nov 2000
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posted
Just for the record, the wig story surfaced in the Miami Herald today.
Apparently, two local orthodox rabbis and an ultra-orthodox Lubavitch (Hasidic) rabbi said women don't have to get rid of their wigs.
quote: South Florida's Orthodox rabbis seem willing to accept Indian wigs pending further evidence.
''We made some investigations,'' said Rabbi Neal Turk of Miami Beach's Beth Israel, a 225-family congregation in which, he said, perhaps half the women cover their hair.
According to Turk, Hindu scholars say that Hindu women cutting their hair is ``not a form of worship.''
Yael Putney of Miami Beach worried that three of her five wigs ``would be at issue. I was particularly concerned about one I paid a lot of money for . . . So I do what I always do: go online, and oh indeed, there was a controversy.''
Putney, 53, called her rabbi, Avika Stolper of congregation Ohr Chaim, who told her to keep wearing her wigs.
This is not the first time the wig issue has surfaced, said Rabbi Turk, noting that while Jewish law never changes, rabbis must interpret it in contemporary contexts.
But his opinions have had little impact in the Lubavitch community, which takes its cues from its own leaders. They decided that ''based on Jewish law, you don't have to get rid of the wigs,'' said Rabbi Joseph Korf of Hollywood's Community Synagogue Chabad Lubavitch.
I thought the concurring conclusions of these 3 different rabbis was interesting. Interesting, too, that the story made the news so much after the original NY Times story.
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quote:At issue, said the rabbi, is whether the organisms develop in the water or can exist separately from it. If they are capable of leaving the water they would be considered prohibited for consumption.
This is what I've always liked about Judaism - the incredible amount of energy spent by believers to do their best to follow God's commands. Some people view statements like the one above as legalistic or nit-picking, but I think the analysis that goes into such decisions is the hallmark of people who earnestly want to do the right thing. After all, some decision has to be made, and the decision has to be based on both the original text (the statutes, if you will) and the interpretations of the text over the centuries.
This kind of thinking is actually aesthetically pleasing to me.
posted
There is a kind of logic in the fact that someone who finds the study of law (and laws) intriguing would also be intrigued by the Jewish Talmudic tradition. As more than one person has said, the Talmud is essentially a (very long! ) law book, citing case law and related reasoning.
I know at least three men who are both rabbis (in the congregational and/or decision-making sense) and practicing lawyers. And another who is not a lawyer, but teaches at a law school.
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posted
Do most local congregations hold Talmudic or Torah study classes that are open to the public? IF so are there fees involved? I have a possible interest into looking into one, as I find this all fascinating and would love to sit in on a class where these texts are studied and commented on in this context.
Posts: 2689 | Registered: Apr 2000
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quote: Do most local congregations hold Talmudic or Torah study classes that are open to the public?
Yes, many do.
quote: IF so are there fees involved?
Varies a LOT -- some are sponsored by an individual or organization and are free, some cost money (anywhere from a pittance to quite a bit).
Let me see what's in your area (assuming your profile is correct) . . .
ROFL! You're 20-30 minutes from Lakewood! Ok, but that won't necessarily do much in terms of classes aimed at beginners.
Let's see, there's a place in Marlboro, NJ (that seems to be not too far?) that seems to have Talmud classes Tuesday nights. And here is one that seems to sometimes offer classes, right in your township. Both are Conservative, not Orthodox, just FYI.
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posted
I knew Lakewood was a major Jewish community, but I didn't know it was that well known
I had seen the B'Nai Israel site, but noted that it appeared to be out of date (and designed and maintained by a 16 year old girl). I guess just calling would probably be the best way to get info.
posted
*grin* Yeah, but the Chabad in Taal's township seems to be a bitty place. He's helping me figure out which other Chabads in NJ are near him. (Teaneck, for example has one with lots of classes, but that's FAR.)
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I get at least 2-3 pieces of mail a week from the Chabad House after I attended one workshop. They are as close to missionaries as Judiasm gets.
Posts: 134 | Registered: Apr 2003
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I have been wondering about this. If Kerry is elected, will he be the first Jewish president?
It was fairly recently revealed to Kerry that his background is not, in fact, Irish Catholic(on his father's side), but Austrian-Jewish. Would that make him a Jewish president? Even though he is Catholic?
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As I said, this is definitely an AYLR question. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Oops. Mixed up seder (Order) and Tractate (mesechet). Sorry -- translation issue. My bad.
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) resource. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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) do need thorough cleaning, and then to be turned as high as they go for 1-2 hours, not overnight.) ![[No No]](graemlins/nono.gif)
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