posted
Thanks. Maybe organic meats have stricter "less suffering" requirements...
*googles*
Sigh. Looks like the only requirements by law for Organic meat is that the animals are fed nice organic foods (no synthetic pesticides, synthetic hormones, sewage for fertilization, irradiation, or vaccinations).
I guess there isn't enough of a market for it.
Posts: 1892 | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote: This hoisting and suspension process, whose use has declined somewhat in recent years, especially for larger animals, was essentially compelled by federal sanitary laws. (emphasis mine)
Instead, apparently systems like these are becoming widespread. In fact
quote: Today 90 percent of the kosher-slaughtered cattle in the United States are held in an upright restraint system.
And apparently this has been true for about 10 years.
And indications are that these restraints reduce the animals' pain. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Interesting. So they were used maybe a decade ago, but are phasing out. Isn't it a little disturbing that they were being used?
I'm amused at the "new technique" of holding the cow down so it can't see what's going to happen to it and stuff.
Anyhow, re: the kosher food for non-jews, I considered eating kosher meats because of the quality/nice-killing aspects. I guess I could do some research and actually make that decision some day. I recently moved from generic grocery store horror meat to organic meats.
Posts: 1892 | Registered: Mar 2002
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Do many Orthodox Jewish woman spend $1000 on a wig?!?!
Are those wigs going to be thrown out? *Can think of a number of cancer patients that would love to have a wig*
*fully admits she hasn't read all of this thread and has a feeling this doesn't belong here, but is surprised at the amount of money some people apparently spend on a wig *
Posts: 944 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote: Isn't it a little disturbing that they were being used?
Disturbing to you or to me? Clearly it is to you. But to me, while causing unnecessary pain to an animal is forbidden, it is not clear that this was unnecessary (when there was not this newer restraint system available).
quote: Do many Orthodox Jewish woman spend $1000 on a wig?!?!
Define "many." I have never -- in fact, I think I can safely say that the cost of ALL the wigs I have bought in the past 12 years would fall short of that amount. But yes, people do -- more, sometimes. OTOH, the ones that cost that much are generally worn daily for many years.
quote: Are those wigs going to be thrown out?
Probably NOT. At least three well-respected rabbis have already made it clear that the wigs that most Americans have are NOT made of hair from India. As far as I'm concerned, case closed.
Oh, and this quote from the article you linked to is incorrect:
quote: More than 5,700 miles away in Israel, several rabbis issued a ban on wigs made in India from human hair, which is used to make many of the wigs sold in Brooklyn. (emphasis mine)
It should say, "which there is SOME CONCERN may be used to make many of the wigs sold in Brooklyn."
Wig-makers who sell to the Orthodox community have been avoiding hair from India for years.
quote:Do many Orthodox Jewish woman spend $1000 on a wig?!?!
As Rivka said, "many" can mean lots of different things. However, of the numerous friends/classmates of mine who've gotten married recently, I'd say 95% of them got at least one wig upwards of $800, and the wealthier ones got wigs that were $1500 plus. The thing to remember, though, is that these girls are going to be wearing the wigs day in and day out for years, and human hair lasts longer - it's an investment of sorts. On the other hand, my mother never got such expensive wigs; I think the most she ever spent on a wig was about $350.
quote:Are those wigs going to be thrown out? *Can think of a number of cancer patients that would love to have a wig*
Well, the really expensive wigs probably won't be, because the expensive ones are almost always made exclusively from European hair, which isn't a problem. It's the less expensive (but still in the few hundred dollar range) wigs that are the real issue. In Israel, it's more of a problem, because people in Israel are generally much poorer than Jews in America, so they mostly wear wigs made from the less expensive hair, which is often, or usually, Indian. Even in America, though, it's a major issue, because it's very hard to be sure whether a wig is partially made from Indian hair. At the moment, in the yeshivish orthodox circles, at least, everyone has been calling their rabbis to find out if their brand of wig is okay, and any wigs that they aren't sure about, they're not wearing until they find out. So yes, a number of women have reverted to other head coverings temporarily, and others have bought synthetic wigs, but it turns out that there's a problem with those as well, since they contain about 5% human hair, which is probably Indian hair, as that's one of the cheapest kinds.
Also, Rivka - which three Rabbis are you referring to? Because everyone has been discussing this yesterday and today, and the latest is that unless you're sure that your wig isn't Indian, you're not allowed to wear it.
Posts: 196 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
reader, not according to my rav, who said (this is cut and pasted from the email that was sent out to all shul members)
quote: According to Rav Fuerst, Rav Gansweig and Rav Dovid Feinstein, here's the latest update on the current sheitel dialog:
a) You CAN use your sheitel as is b) *IF* you want to be machmir, call your sheitel machor and ask them if the hair on your sheitel is from India. If it is not from India, you have no problem. c) Do NOT burn your sheitel under any circumstances.
posted
Oh, and this business about synthetic wigs containing 5% human hair is, AFAIK, not true across the board.
I hate to say this, but a lot of this is simply hysteria and rumors. And my rav said there is no problem.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Sorry, mack, missed your one-line post. Oops.
Orthodox women who are married cover their hair in public. Some mostly (or only) wear a wig; others only wear scarves, snoods, or hats; many wear any of the above. My personal preference is for snoods most often, hats and wigs occasionally. Amusingly, I wore a wig yesterday (the kerfuffle didn't hit L.A. until today), but not today -- but not because I knew anything before I got to school.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
No one I know has been burning their wigs; they just haven't been wearing them until the situation is resolved and everything is figured out, as directed by most of the big Rabbanim. If you know that the wig does not contain Indian hair, than it's obviously not a problem, but with many wigs, it's not certain. There are several Rabbis who just traveled to India to try to figure out the situation, so I'm sure that within a week or so everyone will know which brands are okay, and it'll probably be most of them, but right now, most of the major Rabbanim are saying that wigs should not be worn unless you're sure that they're not made from Indian hair. Obviously, there are differences of opinion, but I just double-checked with my brother (he just got back from yeshiva, and they're always up on the latest news) and that's what he said. My brother was actually surprised to hear that R' Dovid Feinstein didn't agree; he says he'll get someone from yeshiva to call him tomorrow morning to ask about that.
In any case, this confusion is just temporary, while the Rabbis figure out what the situation really is.
Posts: 196 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
A snood is sort of a net mesh sorta thing that covers the hair, or like a silky clothy thingy wrap arounder...sorta...
Ill ask Rav Mordechai Willig (For the non-aggudah, lol); My good friend sells wigs in the five towns and brooklyn, ill ask her as well tommorow. By the way these things can cost in excess of 1000 dollars. Psycho...
I never understood wigs as a hair covering. Covering your hair is supposed to deter you from scandalous thoughts, thoughts that are arousing when you see a woman's hair. Wearing fake hair doesnt really do a good job of doing that. Doesnt Rav Ovadia Yosef not hold of wigs?
Posts: 1604 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Armoth, some agree with you -- as you mentioned, various Sephardic authorities, like R' Ovadya Yosef among them. However, most see a big difference between a woman's natural hair and a wig -- regardless of how nice and/or expensive it may be.
As someone who can spot a wig (even a really good one) across a room, I tend to agree.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
A snood is made out of a nice cloth, of varying colors and designs, and is shaped like a... round bag? The opening is elasticized, so once you've put it on correctly, all your hair is inside of it, with the rim of the snood just covering the front and sides of your hairline. They actually look nice, if you're used to them, but people generally wear them inside their homes, though some do wear them outside as well.
I've managed to find a picture: click here to see one snood. More often, though, snoods are mostly black (at least when worn by women in their twenties) and the latest style has a smaller "bag" to it.
Posts: 196 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Rivka's probably right about snood colors - I think it's just girls my age, or a couple years older than me, who wear mostly black. That's probably because girls my age tend to only wear snoods when at home, on Friday night, together with their robes (sort of like long, fancy dresses that are machine-washable and have zippers down the front) - and since the standard robe color is black, the snoods that I see people wearing are black as well. Posts: 196 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
It is also wise not to assume that as Brooklyn/Queens does, so does the world. There are some things that are very common in your neck of the woods and less so elsewhere. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
So what's the problem with Indian wigs? The link requires a password, and I'm too lazy to look up my NYTimes account right now and sure don't want to get another account.
I personally do not wear a wig, but I am certain that many women in my community spend $1000 and upwards on wigs.
Posts: 5771 | Registered: Nov 2000
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posted
Ok, On the wig thing. I haven't read the "India" scandal either. But if the wig is made of real hair, does it have to be non-jewish hair? I mean could you get a wig made of your own hair? It seems wrong that you are having women grow and cut their hair to cover your own as far as modesty goes because those women would be comprimising their modesty for yours.
Doesn't make sense to me. I'm totally ok with the snood thing but this wig thing bothers me a lot.
Is this quote true? I realize it is one persons opinion but I was under the impression that most of the time following a code of "modesty" generally meant NOT blending under many circumstances.
quote: "I would look funny," she said. "One of the goals of modesty is to blend. When you wear a snood on the subway, you never blend."
posted
The problem isnt hair from india per-se. Jews have a concept, that you cant get any use/pleasure out of anything used in the worship of a foreign god. In fact, now that most of the world has been worshiping the same monotheistic god, it has become less and less of a problem...except for Indians. Indians worship Brahma, Shiva, Vishnu, and whole other set of gods. It is said, that one of the Indian gods when getting married to a mortal, they needed to borrow materials for the wedding to occur (I think). Indians are now paying their debt by donating their jewelry, clothing, and most importantly - their hair. Women and Men come to temples to "sacrafice" their hair in the service of their gods. This hair is then cleaned and shipped off to other countries to be used as wigs. Since this hair has been used in the service of foreign gods, it cannot be used by a Jew. Therefore, there is concern about this hair used in wigs.
I asked my friend's mom - she has no problem, her hair is all from Europe. I asked Rav Willig, and he said that Rav Elyashuv's psak was that if your hair is from India, you cant use your wig, and if you arent sure, you dont need to worry about it.
Oh and the blending quote? Nah, thats one person's personal thing. She doesnt want to look like an amish person, yet she wants to keep her religion's laws. So she wears a wig! Though I thought snoods are in... *shrug* lol You could say that a code of modesty is not to STRUT your stuff, but doesnt mean you have to hide in the shadows or blend...
quote:Oh and the blending quote? Nah, thats one person's personal thing. She doesnt want to look like an amish person, yet she wants to keep her religion's laws. So she wears a wig! Though I thought snoods are in... *shrug* lol
Whether or not snoods are "in" or "out" an orthodox woman may want to wear a wig so she doesn't stand out when she goes to work, for example.
Posts: 5771 | Registered: Nov 2000
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posted
Ironically, I just received the following email from a Jewish list I am on:
quote:FYI just heard this from my daughter
Rabbi Yosef Sholom Elyashiv, considered the top Halakhic [Jewish legal] authority in most religious Jewish circles, has added his name to those banning the use and benefit of all human hair wigs originating in India.
The decision is based on confirmed reports that human hair in India is often shaved off for the purpose of idol worship practices, and is afterwards sold to companies that manufacture wigs. Although there is no certainty that any specific Indian-made wig is made of hair used for idol-worship, the widespread practice there means that each individual wig involves at least a "possible" violation of the Torah ban on benefiting from idol worship, and may therefore not be used. Rabbi Elyashiv said that his ruling does not imply that wigs in general are appropriate as head-coverings, and that on this issue, each woman should follow her rabbis' instructions and her own family customs.
posted
I want to start by highlighting one point which too many people (not here, so much as elsewhere) have forgotten in all the hysteria.
quote: (From Armoth's post) Rav Elyashuv's psak was that if your hair is from India, you cant use your wig, and if you aren't sure, you dint need to worry about it.
{from Ela's post) Rabbi Elyashiv said that his ruling does not imply that wigs in general are [in]appropriate as head-coverings, and that on this issue, each woman should follow her rabbis' instructions and her own family customs (emphases mine).
In other words -- and I have had this confirmed by several rabbis now -- if you already own a wig whose origins you do not know IT IS FINE.
Jaiden, I totally agree with you! I also don't buy expensive clothes/shoes. I'll be cheap right along with you.
AJ, the hair need not be from non-Jews. But saying that "It seems wrong that you are having women grow and cut their hair to cover your own as far as modesty goes because those women would be compromising their modesty for yours," is false -- the commandment to cover the hair applies only to married women who are Jewish. So it's hardly "compromising their modesty." Moreover, some single Jewish girls I know deliberately grow their hair long to cut and sell to people who make sheitels (wigs).
quote: I mean could you get a wig made of your own hair?
I have never asked for myself, and this would be the sort of thing that one would specifically ask the rabbi that one has chosen to follow; however, I had a friend in seminary who asked (she had a very unusual shade of red hair), and was told no. However, her sister has a similar shade, and they were told that hair from each could be used for a wig for the other.
posted
OK, here's a question: is a Jew allowed to own things that have been made from non-kosher animals? I ask because I'm a go player and I own a set of slate and clamshell stones. (This aside from concerns about over-harvesting large clams for such frivolous uses.)
Posts: 1810 | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted
You say the requirement (or custom?) to cover one's hair only applies to married Jewish women. What about a divorced or widowed Jewish woman? Would she be likely to continue to cover her hair? Would there be any social consequences for her if she decided not to continue covering it?
Also, I want to add my thanks to Rivka and the others for this thread... I appreciate you being willing to share your beliefs with us.
posted
To Mike: Yes, jews are allowed to own things made from non kosher animals (except for some few things like certain fats, and some obscure body parts which i dont know off hand, and rarely come as a problem). Jews use footballs, and leather, all kindsa things. The problem is eating them.
And Secondly (To Maui:), to answer, you must understand the reason they are supposed to cover their hair. A man is NOT allowed to sleep with a married woman. It is one of the gravest of sins. Therefore, to ease a man's desire, married woman are moreso required to dress modestly when they are out of the house. Unmarried women while remaining modest, can still let their beauty show and have their hair uncovered. Remember they ARE trying to get married. Theyre not gonna walk around in veils the whole time ;-). So, I dont think a widow needs to cover her hair. She still might out of habbit.
posted
FWIW, I wear scarves to shul. All of them are black. I have cotton, wool, and synthetic ones for non-holidays and a lacy one for holidays, weddings, etc. I'm wearing a black cottone one with white and caramel candlewicking right now as I'm fixing to leave for shul momentarily (have to be there early today. Silk ones slip right off of my head.
I'll probably get a snood one of these days, though.
I was very excited to cover my hair for the first time after I got married, btw.
posted
Mike, what Armoth said. I have some seashell necklaces, I once owned a snakeskin wallet -- never tried to eat either of 'em, though.
quote: You say the requirement (or custom?) to cover one's hair only applies to married Jewish women. What about a divorced or widowed Jewish woman? Would she be likely to continue to cover her hair? Would there be any social consequences for her if she decided not to continue covering it?
posted
Personally, I wear hats to synagogue and religious functions. I like the way I look in hats, and they protect me from the Florida sun. Posts: 5771 | Registered: Nov 2000
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quote:-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I mean could you get a wig made of your own hair? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have never asked for myself, and this would be the sort of thing that one would specifically ask the rabbi that one has chosen to follow; however, I had a friend in seminary who asked (she had a very unusual shade of red hair), and was told no. However, her sister has a similar shade, and they were told that hair from each could be used for a wig for the other.
Some Rabbis do allow a woman to make a wig out of her own hair.
[ May 16, 2004, 12:08 PM: Message edited by: Ela ]
Posts: 5771 | Registered: Nov 2000
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Yeah, I guess I have about as many snoods as I have pairs of shoes. And for similar reasons.
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