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Author Topic: The REAL Battlestar Galactica Season 3 Discussion Thread
Blayne Bradley
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awesome episode. They showed Canada in the end, and it looks fine, I see alot of cloud cover, and alot of greena nd orangy stuff in their proper places so it doesnt look like nuclear winter.
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Tarrsk
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That was great. Loved the use of "All Along the Watchtower." That could've been incredibly cheesy, but by the gods, they pulled it off.
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Goody Scrivener
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I'm watching the repeat... I cannot believe I didn't catch them quoting lyrics. "I can't get no relief" did twang a memory but I couldn't place it earlier.
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James Tiberius Kirk
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*** Spoilers, of course.


This episode wasn't quite what I expected. I did expect Gaeta to testify, and predicted that the pardon would come up during the trial. I'm really not sure I understand how the four came to the conclusion that they were all Cylons, just based on the evidence we saw.

I want to hear the podcast for this one.

2008? They're really milking this one as long as they can, aren't they?

--j_k, who was also waiting for the Kadeshi to pounce on them

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0Megabyte
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Wow. I loved it, especially the ending. That was crazy.

I know, I know, I already knew everything. But it was great.

How anyone can think it was bad, I'll never understand. I guess people who don't like the show?

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MightyCow
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Great episode. I can't wait for next season. So far away... [Frown]
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Peter
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quote:
Originally posted by Michiel:
Gods, that was terrible. Incredibly weak finale to by far the weakest season so far.

I don't understand. Why'd you think it was bad? So far, I've seen more positive reaction, including mine, than bad. in fact, i think your response is the only negative I've seen. I'm just trying to see what you think is bad.
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David Bowles
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Lee Adama's "testimony" had me on the edge of my seat... incredible writing.
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Lisa
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As much as I hate to admit it, I agree with the Adamas. Baltar is a weasel, and I'd shed no tears for him, and he's guilty as sin of so much... but not of what they charged him with.
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David Bowles
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BTW, I'm pretty sure that Starbuck is NOT the fifth cylon... to me, it seems more likely that Roslin is... she shared a vision with two cylons and a half-cylon... hrm.
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TrapperKeeper
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I agree David. Also, we still dont know about the baltar/six in the heads. Sure dont know, it could be either one though.
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David Bowles
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And you know, I don't even think they're Cylons... Tigh summed up the problem pretty nicely... he's been fighting Cylons BEFORE there were skinjob cylons.

I think they are something else... maybe incarnations of the Lords of Kobol.

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Alcon
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Yeah, I think the whole "we're cylon's thing" is a red herring for next season as well as chief's particular paranoia. There are a billion different explanations with in the show for why they could all be hearing the same thing like that.
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ReddwarfVII
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It could be a red herring, but in an interview RDM states very specifically that the four are indeed cylons. However he states that they are "fundamentally different" that the other cylons. He also states that there are two half-human, half-cylon children in the fleet. Hera and Nicky. For those that would like to read the article you can find it here.
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Lisa
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He didn't just say they were Cylons. He said, "And then a switch goes off". Something told all four of them that they were Cylons. Like the switch when Boomer went from not knowing who she was to trying to kill Adama.
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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by ReddwarfVII:
He also states that there are two half-human, half-cylon children in the fleet. Hera and Nicky.[/URL]

Actually, he says there are at least two. I'm still betting on Kara as a hybrid.
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pH
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*runs into thread with eyes covered*

I missed it last night so now I have to wait to watch it but the urge to open this thread is overwhelming so I'm gonna post in it and not look at anything I PROMISE!

*runs back out*

-pH

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0Megabyte
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The ending of this episode was awesome.

All Along the Watchtower as the set up for the seemingly most dramatic battle yet. Oh, and the little "EARTH!" thing they did, which was awesome, I think.

I so, so, so hope that we see Earth soon. The story seems to FINALLY be back on track.

But I have to wait for a fracking year to see them finally back on the road to earth for real this time.

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Bella Bee
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quote:
I'm still betting on Kara as a hybrid.
In light of recent events, it would be great if Kara turned out to be Tigh's kid.

That would be amusing.

Genetically speaking, she could be Cavil's, or Doral's. She's unlikely to be Simon's as she doesn't look mixed race. She's not going to be Anders' or Leoben's because with their relationships, I can't see anyone wanting to ick the audience out like that.

Anyway, now there are six male and five female cylons. So who's betting that the final cylon is a woman to even out the numbers?

[ March 26, 2007, 02:31 PM: Message edited by: Bella Bee ]

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TheGrimace
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I have to say that as a season finale this episode bugged the heck out of me. The content of the episode in general was great, but as a way to end the season with presumably a 9+ month gap before the next episode I was pissed.

The only question they really answered (at least to my satisfaction) was the immediate question of how the trial would turn out, everything else is still up in the air. None of the other lingering questions/mysteries that they've been developing have been answered at all.

There's no real knowledge about what's going on with Rosalyn's (and the others') dreams.

While the four seem convinced that they're cylons (kinda) I see nothing clear about that at all, especially given the general mysticality of the show. Even if writers/producers are stating off-camera that it's true, there is nothing really in the show that says it. If they're being told in their heads that it's true then fine, but it can't be that clear or else Anders wouldn't be questioning it so strongly. And yes they all hear the song, and were drawn to the same place etc, but how can you be sure that there isn't some other explanation (be it technological or spiritual or whatever). While certainly the cylon way is the way they're intending to go with it, the events of the episode still make it far from clear that it is the absolute truth of the situation. also, a commercial during the episode bugged me when it said that I should text the source of the music to some number to win a prize... not only did I have no idea what the correct answer to the question was when it aired during the show, but I really don't know the true answer even now after the show...

And then there is the little appearance at the end... while not unexpected, it's kinda like just throwing some mystical appearance of Abe Lincoln at the end of the episode with no other explanation... I mean, it could be a hallucination, but what's causing it because the usual suspects of extreme stress/emotion/tiredness/drugs are all absent. It could be that she's a resurrected cylon, but then where did she get a viper? (not insurmountable, but still) it could be that she's somehow just really herself but then you really have to start getting into straight-up magic type explanations...

basically this episode frustrates me because there's all these crazy loose ends where we have absolutely no clue where they're going or where they're coming from, and the explanations for some of the things that they've "closed" don't seem very solid.

also, this is a carry over from a previous episode, but the woman who helps Baltar and askes for his blessing earlier... do we have any reason to believe that there is something in their religion that would leave room for Baltar to become a religious figure? I understand the political appeal, and people getting ideas from his book, but I don't understand a religious draw to him...

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Peter
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It seemed to me as thought Anders wasn't questioning it so much as denying the fact. You've spent your whole life, and especially the past 2+years fighting cylons and risking your life, you won't want to admit it.

To me, the season was wrapped up rather well. I mean, yes, there are still questions that need to be answered, but that's the point of a season finale, to make people want to watch the next season.

As for Kara, I'd place my money on the fact that she's the 5th cylon. Probably something she even realized when she...what....killed herself? died voluntarily? Whatever it was, that's my bet. The viper really isn't a problem at all to explain. They had captured several ships, one example is how Sharon managed to get back to Galactica after retrieving her child.

As for Baltar.....where do I even begin. I don't think he was guilty of the crimes, but I also don't think he was worthy of being called human. I think there's plenty of room for a religion to be built around him. There does not seem to be any real competition for major religion (aside from atheism and agnosticism) , but there must be some contention with how things are going. I could easily see building a religion around Baltar

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Shigosei
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I loved Lee's speech. His insight into the fleet's situation and the feelings of guilt left over from abandoning New Caprica was pretty sharp.

I don't see how Kara could be a Cylon--we know she has a mother. However, what if Kara's mother was a cylon? That would explain why her mother felt that she had some sort of purpose or destiny. If cylon hybrids can resurrect, it explains how Kara returned from death. Are the final five based out of Earth? When Kara died, did she wake up there?

I got the impression from the meeting scene that the four people didn't just suspect they were cylons. They knew. Some sort of programming kicked in. Did they hear the music before Starbuck died? Is that what triggered it? They said it was like they were remembering snatches of a song from childhood. Perhaps it wasn't childhood, but a former life.

I loved the end-scene. It was very un-Battlestar Galactica-like, but I think it captured the right mood.

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Damien.m
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Heres the link for a post finale interview with RDM by Kristin@E!Online....

Interview

Some interesting tidbits but most notably STARBUCKS BACK FOR GOOD!!!! [Big Grin]

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Alcon
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quote:
It could be a red herring, but in an interview RDM states very specifically that the four are indeed cylons. However he states that they are "fundamentally different" that the other cylons. He also states that there are two half-human, half-cylon children in the fleet. Hera and Nicky. For those that would like to read the article you can find it here.
*cough* Yeah, Riiiighht. Cause they've never mislead us before in podcasts and off screen interviews. Seriously I think RM gets more joy from playing with us offscreen than he does from playing with us on! I don't just jack from him.

And them being four of the final five makes no sense whatsoever. However, I bet there are a number of other explanations that could make sense. I'm not gonna speculate though, I'm just gonna wait for next season.

quote:
Some interesting tidbits but most notably STARBUCKS BACK FOR GOOD!!!! [Big Grin]
There is one key example of them misleading us. Right after she died all the interviews and such were making out that she was gone for good.
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ReddwarfVII
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quote:
Originally posted by Damien.m:
Heres the link for a post finale interview with RDM by Kristin@E!Online....

Interview

Some interesting tidbits but most notably STARBUCKS BACK FOR GOOD!!!! [Big Grin]

From the interview that is referenced above. And I quote:

"(Interviewer)And just because there will be debate, can you confirm that they are Cylons?
(RDM)Yes, they're Cylons."

Since RDM is not playing coy about this I don't think that there really is any reason to debate are they or aren't they. The bigger debate is who are they. The final five in all of the dream sequences have been treated as higher beings, Lords of Kobol, or whatever.

Here's something else to consider. Both Tyrol and Anders mentioned that the song was hard to remember, like something from childhood. Well, the song has great significance. We all know it's a Bob Dylan song. Assuming they are the final five and the final five are not just cylons, but as RDM stated that they are fundamentally different. Cylons from Earth remembering a song from earth that is imbedded in their memory a key that activates them everytime their civilization comes full circle to this point in their existance. They are activated to guide humanity in the final hours.

[ March 26, 2007, 06:19 PM: Message edited by: ReddwarfVII ]

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neo-dragon
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I don't know how it's possible, but I think I love this show more each year...

Why are the seasons only 20 episodes long?!

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TheGrimace
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note: I'm not suggesting that they aren't Cylons so much as I'm saying that their way of presenting that was less than complete imo. Basically, I can just as easily explain everything in that episode (regarding this issue) as everyone being on edge constantly worrying that anyone around them could be a cylon, and as soon as a few of them seem to all have what seems to be a shared delusion they just assume that this means they're cylons. If we could actually hear the voice in their heads telling them they're cylons, or see a 6 appear before them (a la Baltar's, even though I know that's not standard cylon hallucination stock) something more concrete is all I'm asking for.

Also, Alcon's comments about Kara being gone for good and then back for good definately make me leery of believing any of this off-camera stuff...

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ReddwarfVII
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Another fascinating quote from the interview:

(Interviewer) Another reader, David Fouse, asks: "Is Hera the first human-Cylon hybrid, or were there maybe other ones before her?
(RDM) Uh...I don't think I'll answer that one.

Very interesting I would say.

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twinky
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...meh. I enjoyed it, but I didn't love it. However, if the next five or six episodes are anywhere near as good as the first five or six in Season Three, all will be forgiven.
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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Alcon:
quote:
Some interesting tidbits but most notably STARBUCKS BACK FOR GOOD!!!! [Big Grin]
There is one key example of them misleading us. Right after she died all the interviews and such were making out that she was gone for good.
Are you sure about that? Or did they say she was gone from the credits for the remainder of the season? Which was true.
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Marlozhan
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I think the only things they said for sure were that Starbuck really did die (though I'm not 100% positive on that) and that she was no longer in the credits this season. I don't think they ever said she would never come back at all, though they certainly tried to imply that.

They must have kept the actors in the dark, given the anger displayed by Adama and other cast members when they found out she died. They probably waited until the last possible moment to inform everyone for shooting the last episode.

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TheGrimace
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I don't know that anyone has claimed that we were lied to about starbuck so much as I think they can be careful and misleading with their wording.

i.e. "yep, she's really dead" doesn't mean what we think it means if season 4 shows us that Cylons have developed a way to capture and reincarnate human souls as well as cylon conciousness (or whatever plot device you want to invent).

Since most of what has been reported (at least on this thread) is second-hand interpretations of their statements, I'm definately leery, but even if I was reading them directly then I still see there being room for misinterpretation or misleading.

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Lisa
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Slam! I knew it!

quote:
Does Kara Thrace's special destiny have anything to do with the identity of her father?
Of her father? No.

The emphasis is copied directly from the original. I called Kara's mom as a Cylon. She's going to be the fifth missing model.
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ReddwarfVII
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quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
Slam! I knew it!

quote:
Does Kara Thrace's special destiny have anything to do with the identity of her father?
Of her father? No.

The emphasis is copied directly from the original. I called Kara's mom as a Cylon. She's going to be the fifth missing model.
Why does her mom have to be a cylon? The quote about the other four being fundamentally different in addition to the other comment about Hera being the first human-cylon in the fleet or were there others before make me think that we are dealing with grown up children of another race of cylon....possibly. I am making that assumption based on the fact that Tigh fought in the first cylon wars. Tigh's age and his long time relationship with Adama to me rule out the possibility that he is a 12 Colonies born Cylon.

Then why do the final five have to be pure cylon? Could we be seeing the direct descendants of the first cylons that rebelled from their race for the love of their humans? Could we be dealing with a the only four people left that are direct descendants of those Gods of Kobol. A DaVinci Code or Heir of Slytherin type of situation.

Maybe the Caprican Cylons found Kobol, found a knowledge cache left by the previous group that taught them how to evolve into organic based models and therefore learned of the bloodlines of the remaining five. They were only able to create 7 models because those were the only models they had DNA samples for. The original 7 Kobol cylons decided the door to immortality was through the process of cloning and downloading. Or better yet, the reason there is only 7 models of human cylons that evolved from the caprica models is that these cylons found this tech on Kobol and seven human models ready to receive a download. They interfaced with the tech, learned how to download, and copied the process of making more human cylons. That's would be how the Caprica Cylons could make such a quantum leap in biomechanics in such a relatively short amount of time. They cheated. But their understanding of the tech was not so complete that they could design completely new human models, but enough that they could integrate the biomechanical systems into their overall society. Hence the fact the hybrids and all of the other ships, etc have a core biomechanical systems, but do not rise to same complete level of intelligence like the human models.

Diving back into what happened on Kobol, there were only 7 models available for download when the Caprica cylons arrive because the other five had fled Kobol with their families as a result of the wars.

Hmmm, but that doesn't work either because by now the descendents of those final five would be so many that practically everyone are cylons. I think I just quit here.

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Goody Scrivener
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I'm starting to think we have a time-wormhole in here someplace. Tigh's a skinjob Cylon, and they came back in time from some future era and joined up with the metalhead Centurions.

"This has all happened before and it will happen again"... remember?

Of course, what kind of paradox would take place by having the nextgen Cylons appear before they were originally created?

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Telperion the Silver
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Freaking awesome finale!
Long live Starbuck!

RM had talked about using a Bobby D or Jim Hendrix song way back in a first season podcast and I'm glad they finally got to it. They have, throughout the series, used alot of eerie Earth-sounding music...anywhere from Celtic to the Deer Hunter. I love the blend of the mystical and the high science, because in the end they are nearly the same thing.

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Alcon
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quote:
I love the blend of the mystical and the high science, because in the end they are nearly the same thing.
*SPLUTTER COUGH* *glares*

I take offense to that! They are not the same thing even remotely! Though they may appear to be if you haven't taken the time to learn the background. Science is based solidly in reality and mysticism, by name and nature, is not.

Though... now that you point it out, you finally put your finger on something that's been bugging the ever lovin' crap out of me for the last season and a half. BSG has been slipping from pretty hard sf towards sf-fantasy. I don't think I like that... I love outright fantasy. I can deal with shows that start out a mix. But I also liked having a show that was hard sf, particularly one that did so well with actual space physics.

Thanks for helping figure out why I've been going sorta "meh" to BSG of late, Telp [Smile] Still enjoy the show and will definitely finish it, but this also explains why I've had no wish whatsoever to speculate. If it was hard sf, the realm of things it could be is limited and then there's a point to speculating. Which is why it was fun to do earlier. But now that it's clearly waxing toward fantasy, well now they can pull just about anything out of a hat. And there's no point in doing anything but waiting to see what they come up with.

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Bella Bee
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I think Telp might have been indirectly referring to the sci-fi convention put forward by those such as Arthur C. Clarke, that

“Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.”

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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Bella Bee:
I think Telp might have been indirectly referring to the sci-fi convention put forward by those such as Arthur C. Clarke, that

“Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.”

Or the converse: "Any sufficiently well formulated magic is indistinguishable from technology."
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The Pixiest
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I do prefer to keep my hard sci fi and fantasy seperate. I think BSG would have been a better show (but an ALL TOGETHER DIFFERENT show) without the mysticism.

Never the less, I'm liking it so I'll keep watching. Maybe one day someone will make a serious show with a rag tag fleet that focuses on the characters without any Brain-6s or prophecy or anything of the like... But in the mean time I'll take what I got.

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TheGrimace
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reddwarf, much as it's possible that an explanation like that would be used it smacks too much of the later Matrix movies to me. I'm not saying that it's the exact same idea, but it would be the same kind of cop-out in playing out a reasonable plot.

When the mysteries of the show are continuously explained by more and more "background information" that we have no reason to believe exists it's just cheesy. From everything I've seen in the show we have every reason to believe that Cylons were in fact created by the colonials recently enough in history that they can probably track it down and say "oh yeah, X X, the famous scientist, made the first cylon." So whenever explanations start going back to "oh well cylons were originially more advanced and were developed back on Earth or Kobol, the planets who have long been turned to mythology rather than history" it seems like a big cop out (to me at least).

So basically I really hope you're wrong on those postulations.

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twinky
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I agree, Alcon.
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Peter
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I think the mysticism is an incredibly important part of BSG. So much of their culture is based on the Religion (does it even have a name?? cause i can't think of it right now) and that's whats makes it seem realistic. Things may seem mystical, but that's part of life.
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ReddwarfVII
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quote:
Originally posted by TheGrimace:
So basically I really hope you're wrong on those postulations.

Grim, while I like to speculate (mainly because it is one of my only sources of brain candy at the moment) and advance my crazy theories, I completely agree with you.

In all of my theorizing, I have mentioned that so far RDM and co have proven themselves much more inventive and intelligent than even the wildest of our speculations. I did not see the final four coming. I never would have thought that those characters would be cylons. I don't know what their story is, but I know that the answer to that question will probably be better than what I was thinking.

However, until then....let the speculation continue.

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Steve_G
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quote:
Originally posted by Peter:
I think the mysticism is an incredibly important part of BSG. So much of their culture is based on the Religion (does it even have a name?? cause i can't think of it right now) and that's whats makes it seem realistic. Things may seem mystical, but that's part of life.

I agree. Also there seems to be only one religion for the colonials. Within that religion are believers and nonbelievers. If there is only one religion, why would it need a name. It just is. I love the fact that Ron Moore is using religion in the show. Its edgy and never been done to this extent before without getting preachy. The original BSG had a lot of mormonism mixed into it, which felt out of place for sci-fi, even though as a mormon I could understand why Glen Larson chose to use it.

Technically there are 2 religions in the show if you count the cylon religion. It will be interesting to see how the 2 intertwine.

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Lyrhawn
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So I just started watching BSG like four or five days ago. I just a few minutes ago finished watching the Season 3 finale and WOW. I'm blown away.

Gotta say I loved Lee's speech at the trial. I was mentally on the edge of my seat listening to that. Great writing, great acting.

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Tarrsk
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Yeah. I've read some criticism of the trial from folks who know the legal system better than I do, but this layman thought it was excellent, propelled by some of the best acting the series has seen to date. Jamie Bamber, Mark Shepard, Mary McDonnell, and Michael Hogan all deserve Emmys for their work in these last two episodes.
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solo
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quote:
Originally posted by Tarrsk:
Yeah. I've read some criticism of the trial from folks who know the legal system better than I do...

I always think it's funny when people criticize things like this. The other example I've heard is relating to the various ranks and how they don't really match up properly with real naval ranks. It's fiction and it's science fiction at that. I can see people criticizing a show like Law & Order if it got things wrong with a trial or if NCIS screwed up the ranks of it's characters but who are we to say that everything should be just the same for the BSG universe?
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TheGrimace
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perfect example of this was on a snippet of Enterprise that I came across the other day. The alien doctor made some comment about Hippocrates not being of his race...

While certainly there are some criticisms that could be valid based on pure logic, the intricacies of either system are almost certain to be different from our own in at least some ways (i.e. "sir" vs "ma'am" for female officers etc...)

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Jon Boy
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quote:
Originally posted by David Bowles:
BTW, I'm pretty sure that Starbuck is NOT the fifth cylon... to me, it seems more likely that Roslin is... she shared a vision with two cylons and a half-cylon... hrm.

I assumed that was attributable to her prophet/drugged-up status. There was no sign that she was hearing the song or anything like that, either.

Oh, and I had issues with the Bob Dylan song. It seemed like a weird and cheesy thing to throw in.

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