quote:Originally posted by Dan_raven: does anyone forsee a possible Abraham/Isaac moment in the near future. Starbuck told to Kill the halfbreed child, but stopped at the last minute by some kind of divine, or internal, angelic influence?
Interesting thought, but I don't think so. The religious overtones of the show seem to be self contained within the sphere of their own inner dogma. It doesn't seem to me that the writers are pulling biblical allegories into the storylines. If anything, if Kasey is Kara's child, she, with Hera (Helo and Sharon's kid) are going to be a point of peace between the humans and cylons. For humans especially, they will be the answer to survival.
One thing about the cross breed children is that they would inherit the cylon strenght and intelligence, but they would still be more like humans than cylon. Their consciences can't be downloaded because of their human half, thus eliminating their immortality.
I would imagine that the humans are eventually going to grasp this concept and see the obvious advantages it gives them for survival.
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quote:I would imagine that the humans are eventually going to grasp this concept and see the obvious advantages it gives them for survival.
Are you kidding me? There's no way most humans would except that. They'd call it the destruction of the human race, becoming half toasters. And to some degree it'd be true. I can't see the average joe in the fleet supporting this idea. Hell I can't even see Roslin or Adama supporting it except as a last ditch effort to save something of humanity.
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posted
Heh, this reminds me of Octavia Butler's Xenogenesis trilogy. These aliens rig it so that humans aren't able to have children on their own. They can only do so with the aid of aliens that will alter the DNA. Those that have children are branded traitors and people try to kill them. Battlestar is different because they can still have human babies. Even still, I don't see people warming up to cross bred children.
posted
So what? You are saying that we don't already use artificial means to prolong life? Scientists today are already trying to find ways to marry the biological with the technical. Wouldn't that just be a major step in the evolution of humanity. The toasters represent the accomplishment of what we are already trying to do. The enhancement and extension of life through technology.
Who's to that if the cylons have evolved to the point that there are identical to humans, that have become human themselves. I find it interesting that the only thing that stops them from being completely human is the fact that they cannot procreate, only duplicate. However, they can procreate with humans. Humans can't procreate with machines, only other humans. So why doesn't that make the cylons just another race of human?
The really funny thing is that because of this, from the cylon point of view, if they had attacked humanity by having babies they would have accomplished their goals and eventually completely replaced humans without humanity knowing it.
posted
The toasters have all but destroyed the human race. Further, humans have a strong attachment to humanity. While it might make them stronger and whatnot, I think most would perceive the cost as too high. The phrase "selling your soul" comes to mind. There is too much hatred toward the cylons and esteem in being human for a mix to be desirable.
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No. Interesting idea... would be cool. But really doubt that's what they're gonna end up doing.
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Part of their theology states that there was a thirteenth colony that in ancient times went to a planet known as Earth. Presumably we are that thirteenth colony. I don't think us being Cylon descendents fits into the show's setup.
Does anybody know how many episodes there are supposed to be this season?
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posted
The break's not that long this season - the current stretch of 10 goes through December and then picks up again at the end of January, ending in time for the return of the Stargates.
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Blayne Bradley
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posted
I believe that we shouldnt look too deep into their theology. Remember We are Earth and they're trying to find us.
So I think for now I'll awesome that the Colonials came from Kobal and so did we but in a completely different direction fopr whatever reason.
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I still think that they are going to find it is backwards and that Earth is the original home of humanity. Humanity fled earth for whatever reasons to Kobol and when humanity fled Kobol, the 13th went to go find Earth. Am I really out there on this?
For me I would say that BSG is taking place in our very distant future, rather than our past or present. This isn't like the original series. If the ships ever reach Earth, it isn't going to be the Earth of the present like the original series.
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quote:Originally posted by ReddwarfVII: This isn't like the original series. If the ships ever reach Earth, it isn't going to be the Earth of the present like the original series.
Or at least I think that it would be really lame if it was. Posts: 263 | Registered: Nov 2005
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Blayne Bradley
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posted
Indeed it would be the biggest mistake if Earth is our tech level or earlier.
I believe that if they reach Earth itll be advanced enough to help out the Colonials but primitive enough to require the services of the Battlestars.
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A pretty good episode of Battlestar Galactica tonight. I liked that we're seeing more about what happened to Hera (including that she's well defended) and the ramifications of the faked death. I also like the idea that with each reload, the human-like Cylons endure more pain to come back. It's interesting.
The preview for next week makes it clear that Apollo doesn't listen and jumps with Galactica into battle (as at the beginning, you hear "2 Battlestars have jumped in" and later you hear Adama saying "Damnit Lee, jump."). It's coming down to a possible all-or-nothing battle over New Caprica. Crazy stuff. I'm still hooked.
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posted
Hmm... couldn't the original tribes of Kobol in fact be decendants of Atlantis? That would explain the greek god system and the higher technology...
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quote: Maybe it was just me, but didn't the kid seem a little too old to be Kara's? The kid looked older than 1.5-2 years old to me.
After seeing Hera, the supposed first human-cylon baby, I think it's quite possible that Kasey isn't Kara's. Before I was unsure because I'm awful at judging kids' ages plus in television shows they frequently get older kids to play the role of younger kids. But Kasey is undoubtedly older than Hera. Maybe cylon-human babies grow faster? If not, something is amiss.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Amanecer: After seeing Hera, the supposed first human-cylon baby, I think it's quite possible that Kasey isn't Kara's. Before I was unsure because I'm awful at judging kids' ages plus in television shows they frequently get older kids to play the role of younger kids. But Kasey is undoubtedly older than Hera. Maybe cylon-human babies grow faster? If not, something is amiss.
Well I could be terribly off at guessing the age as well. I had thought of the "cylon-human baby growing faster" thing as well, but if that was true shouldn't Hera also appear older? I may just be making too much out of this, as I could easily be misreading the age. Kasey just seemed too old to be Starbuck's to me (which made me super suspicious from the start).
Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Does anyone else think that Casey is really just an immature six model or something? She looks a hell of a lot more like six than she does like Leoben or Kara. The curly hair, that sorta grin. Plus... she's kinda manipulating, just like the sixes. Like her expression when she grabbed Kara's finger. That spoke 'inteligent manipulation' to me. Rather than kid wanting mommy.
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*Spoilers from the preview, so if you didn't see it and don't want to be spoiled about its content stay back*: I really hope that Lee at least sends the civilian fleet to the rendezvous point. We know that he jumps to New Caprica as well, is involved in the fight, and at one that Adama is cursing that he hasn't left yet. If Lee brings the whole civilian fleet with him though, he's just being extra stupid. I mean now you're gambling all of humanity on a single battle. That's not a good move. Sure an unprotected civilian fleet isn't a really good move either, but at least it has a slightly better chance of survival for the human race. In reality, I would have hoped that Lee would have followed his own advice (originally) and Adama's orders and stayed with the civilian fleet at the rendezvous point. At least in that case if Galactica fails and such, there's still a fighting chance that humanity can survive.
Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:there's still a fighting chance that humanity can survive.
Not really. There were only 1000 or so people in the human fleet. That's not really a big enough population size with which to repopulate the human race. Least... I don't think it is. Or if they try there would be some serious problems with genetic diversity with in like... 3 generations.
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quote: I had thought of the "cylon-human baby growing faster" thing as well, but if that was true shouldn't Hera also appear older?
Hmmm, you are correct.
As for it being an immature Six, or for that matter a pure cylon baby, if they're able to make children on their own I don't understand the push for human-cylon babies. But I guess those are the only options. It's either half human or all cylon and I'm leaning towards it's not half human.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Alcon: Not really. There were only 1000 or so people in the human fleet. That's not really a big enough population size with which to repopulate the human race. Least... I don't think it is. Or if they try there would be some serious problems with genetic diversity with in like... 3 generations.
Agreed that there would be a genetic diversity problem in a few generations. Still though, if they found Earth before that problem came into play (assuming Earth still does have people on it), then it wouldn't be that much of a problem.
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posted
If you're gambling on them finding Earth, then the fleet's survival isn't important to the overall survival of the human race.
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I guess so. It still just seems too risky to me. Do we have any idea how many people there are in total, on New Caprica, and on Galactica/Pegasus/the civilian fleet? I don't recall hearing any numbers mentioned, and I couldn't find any with a cursory search online. The total numbers could possibly still be low enough to have a genetic diversity problem, which just makes the whole thing a moot point if they don't find Earth.
The only reason I believe that Pegasus + the civilian fleet could possibly keep the human race alive if Galactica fails is just because that seems to be an idea behind the men in charge. Lee wanted the whole fleet to continue on, not too worried that humanity would be extinguished without the people from New Caprica. Even Adama wanted Lee to take the Pegasus and the civilian fleet and continue on just in case. It's true they could only be thinking about the present situation and not generations down the line. Still I think it's hard to render an accurate judgement without knowing total population size (for all the humans from the fleet) compared to the number of people in the fleet still and the number of people on New Caprica.
EDIT: If someone could go back to the last episode of season 2 in the opening where it showed how many people there were, we'd have a rough idea of total population size. We still don't know about the break down between fleet and colonists though.
EDIT 2: I found somewhere saying that the population prior to New Caprica was almost 50,000. Even if we assume that the population on New Caprica is near 40,000 (which is what Wikipedia lists), that still leaves 10,000 in the fleet. Anyone have a rough idea how good that is diversity-wise?
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Pfresh, orgiginally the Fleet's population was about 49,900. Around 10,000 were killed with the destruction of Cloud 9 and surrounding ships. A year later the population of New Caprica was about 38,000. So with 1 or 2 thousand in what remains of the fleet we have 40,000 surviving humans, total.
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posted
Oh, I forgot about the destruction of Cloud 9 and the other ships there. Did they say that 10,000 were killed in that? I probably need to go back and look at that.
Even so, I think my point still stands. Even with only 1000-2000 in the fleet, they could still survive a few generations (let's say three as a super low estimate). Isn't three generations of survival (and the time associated with that which could be used to try and find Earth) better than zero generations of survival? Isn't some chance better than no chance?
I am not trying to say that I disagree with Adama going back for the people of New Caprica. It's the morally right thing to do I think. You can't leave your people behind, particularly after you've been through so much. I'm just trying to say I think it would be sort of stupid to risk everything in one gamble. I truly believe Lee will only bring Pegasus with him (leaving the civilian fleet at the rendezvous point), which is fine. If he does bring the rest of the fleet with him, he's stupid and risking everything.
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quote:if they're able to make children on their own I don't understand the push for human-cylon babies
The skin-jobs are all clones. Clones start as babies and grow up. Just cause its a baby doesn't mean its not a pure cylon clone.
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posted
That was an a very low estimate on my part, I think. With proper planning, even a group of 500 could survive for a handful of generations if not more. A group of 1000 would last even longer. The more the population size increases, the longer the species will live (to a certain point where extinction no longer is possible due to lack of genetic diversity).
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posted
Okay, I knew there had to be a drop due to the whole Cloud 9 nuclear thing.
I would assume the casualties are in the thousands, certainly. As a number of ships went boom. More than I would have hoped. That scene made me cring, for the sake of the continued existence of humanity.
Again, Baltar's fault. Then again, interesting that I cringed more at that then I did at the billions of dead. Because he was only stupid last time, this time the deaths are all totally on his hands.
Anyway, I never saw a number. Let's assume, first, thousands.
The population of New Caprica right before the invasion was 39.192, I think.
Add to that both the skelaton crew of the Galactica and the Pegasus, and the civilian fleet, which if I remember correctly, was about 2,000, and you have... what, about 42,000?
Damn. That'd make the casualties due to Baltar's girlfriend ~7,500 or so. Eesh.
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quote:Originally posted by pfresh85: That was an a very low estimate on my part, I think. With proper planning, even a group of 500 could survive for a handful of generations if not more. A group of 1000 would last even longer. The more the population size increases, the longer the species will live (to a certain point where extinction no longer is possible due to lack of genetic diversity).
Now I'm curious. Do you have a link for this phenomenon? It doesn't seem quite right to me, but then I'm not a geneticist.
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posted
I haven't taken any genetics classes for years, so I may be wrong, but I don't think there's any inherent instability in a population of over 1,000 that will cause extinction. Unless there are some widespread and very serious genetic problems among the population, I don't imagine that anyone would ever notice.
With accurate record keeping, it would be easy to prevent inbreeding with a family line for many generations. Encourage fairly large families and keep people from marrying relations and you're set.
For a very rough estimate, this article on the genetic diversity of wild horse populations concluded that a breeding population of 100 horses in a herd was sufficient to provide for long term viability.
According to this article on Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toba_catastrophe_theory There is a theory that the human population WAS reduced to between 1,000 and 10,000 people approximately 70,000 years ago. We seem to be doing ok.
posted
Cool, thanks for the info. I'd never really thought about these lower limits from the point of view of genetic diversity.
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posted
Huh, cool. I it's been a while since I've had ecology, I was under the impression the number was more around 10,000 for a stable pop.
But there's also the issue of supply. Does what remains of the human fleet minus the ships on the ground have enough fuel and food to make it to anywhere where they could land and start producing? Somehow I doubt it. What happened to that tilium processing ship? Did it land? Where'd it go?
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posted
Exactly Alcon... From what I see on the dvd the Cloud 9 detonation also took out their biotanical cruiser too (the Silent Running tribute ship with the domes). I don't think any other ships besides the bio-cruiser and Cloud 9 can grow crops. As for the Tilium refinery who knows?
[ October 16, 2006, 03:23 AM: Message edited by: Telperion the Silver ]
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posted
Yeah, the whole food supply issue has had me wondering for awhile. Without the Cloud 9 and other bio ships, where in the world are these getting food?
Is it possible that they converted some of the cargo spaces on some ships into hydroponic farms? What about meat? Do they have like some cattle ships or something?
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quote: The skin-jobs are all clones. Clones start as babies and grow up.
I'm not sure why they would do it that way. As we've already seen, they have huge plants with tons and tons of pre-made adults clones waiting for an "essence" to download. Why go through the effort of raising them? Especially since I don't think that making clones fulfills the God's commandment to multiply.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:I'm not sure why they would do it that way. As we've already seen, they have huge plants with tons and tons of pre-made adults clones waiting for an "essence" to download. Why go through the effort of raising them? Especially since I don't think that making clones fulfills the God's commandment to multiply.
When did we see that? Even so, even if these clones don't have an essence yet and are in cryo storage or something, they still probably had to start as immature types. And then grow. Even if they've somehow found a way to skip that step of the cloning process that doesn't mean they aren't capable of it. No cloning doesn't fulfil the commandment to multiply, obviously.
Look, their ability to make adult clones (which I'm not entirely convinced exists) does not remove their ability to make baby clones. And why in the world would the ability to make baby clones check off the 'multiply' commandment? They're still clones. They obviously take that commandment to mean: create genetic diversity.
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When Lee flew into the Ressurection Ship, there were hundreds, if not thousands, of inanimate Sixes. It's possible they start off immature, but I guess I always assumed they didn't. It's an interesting thought. If so, why are all of them exactly the same age? Do Cylons age?
And you're right, I guess they could make a baby clone. I wonder where that "essence" would come from. It seems like right now they are inanimate until they get downloaded. I guess they could make a program just for the baby.
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posted
We saw it in when they showed the resurrection ship. We also saw it when Sharon downloaded into her new body and Six started seeing Baltar-in-the-Head. I don't think the skin-jobs are clones. They're constructs.
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posted
I agree jeniwren. Owing to the fact that they are still machines at their most basic core, programming has to take place at some point. I would personally assume that they create empty shells for the purpose of downloading. Those bodies could be constructs that are created in an adult form. Sure they could still "grow" them, but that does not mean that the empty shells are grown from a childlike physical state all the way to the adult state. Human growth works like that, but I would think for the sake of uniformity and speed of creation that the cylons would have shortened the process and just made the constructs adults in the first place. Even in the construction of new independent intelligences or programs to fill constructs, what usefulness would it be to the cylons to create kid cylons that would have to go through the years long growth process.
In fact, childhood would have been seen as unnessary if an intelligence can be programmed with all of the necessary knowledge from the beginning. A childhood and the growing up process would produce radically different and unpredictable results in a society governed by uniformity. A society that depends on uniformity to survive and maintain order.
The kid is half-human, but not necessarily Kara's. I agree that she is too old really to be created from Kara's missing ovary. However, the revealed facts speak to the idea that the kid is at least half-human. Cylons do not have a need and possibly not the ability to create immature biological offspring. They so far have only been successful in creating exact phyiscal copies of a limited number of models. They can program new intelligence, but to me it looks like they are really just using the same operating system for each model. Just like most of us are using Windows in some form on our computers. Of course each model, while exactly similar physically, starts out with the same Operating System, but as new information is added (i.e. new software is installed onto the OS) the system adapts and changes.
This stands to reason that if the cylons could create child cylons and introduce genetic diversity into their population, they would have already done so. Humanity would be unnecessary to their survival. But they can't. So the little girl is not an immature cylon because they can't make babies. I also think that is why there are only 12 models of cylon. They were probably the only constructs of multiple versions that could meet all of the requirements of a cylon biological form.
See the cylons understand the need for procreation and genetic diversity in order for a race to have long term survival possibility. The download process is not without it's cost. With each download the price gets higher. Think of Scar, dying and being reborn all of those times. The continue pain of it probably would have or had driven that raider into madness. Ultimately the cylons know that after so many downloads, an intelligence become too corrupted and it descends into madness. They know that they have to give up immortally offered by the download process to ensure their survival. They do not fear permanent death as long as their people continue to evolve and survive.
Of course, once they get back to Galatica, they'll scan the kid's dna, she'll be Kara's and we will be left wondering how on earth Kasey could be older than Hera.
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posted
I hope that rambling makes sense to some of you. I'm really tired and it's late. I kind of just posted my thought process as it evolved.
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posted
I hope the baby is a Six clone, and that it has an adult Six mentality, in the body of a child, created for the sole purpose of winning over Kara. That last look was pure manipulation.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Yeah, the whole food supply issue has had me wondering for awhile. Without the Cloud 9 and other bio ships, where in the world are these getting food?
Is it possible that they converted some of the cargo spaces on some ships into hydroponic farms? What about meat? Do they have like some cattle ships or something?
Well, after Gina blew herself and the bio-ships up the Colonials had even more reason to stay at New Caprica and grow crops. I figure all the plant foodstuffs on New Caprica are grown on the planet (in the webisodes Doral talks about Cylon and Humans working together to farm, producing that lovely pink drink).
As for meat, that was answered in a deleted scene early in Second Season when Laura, Apollo, Elosia, and Tom are hiding from Galactica on a cargo ship. They are in a freezer onboard and Apollo talks about how this ship might be the most valuable since it carries the last meats in the known universe.
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