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Author Topic: Lost Season 3 Discussion - Spoilers Galore!
stihl1
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quote:
Originally posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan:
Why didn't Charlie try to get out through the porthole?

He wanted to die, thought he had to die to save Claire and the baby. Desmond kept telling him he had to die.

quote:
Originally posted by Puffy Treat:

The Island scenes were the flashbacks.

Or were the future scenes flash forwards?
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Strider
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I like Puffy's better.
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Strider
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Sooooo...speculations for next season?

Who got off the island? Is Kate with Sawyer? Whose funeral was it? How long have they been off the island? Why's Jack suicidal? Did some of them get killed after the radio communication? Jack probably blames himself and wants go get back to the island to help those who are still alive and trapped there. He had maps all over his apartment, trying to find the island? Will the show now take place on and off the island?

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David Bowles
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He'll hook up with Penny and find the Dharma dudes, then force them to take him to the island. Season 4 will end with his arriving (and the 'now flashback' stuff on the island will have progress into the future so that the two timelines converge again).
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Strider
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I think the funeral was Michael's.
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msquared
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Strider

I would say Kate is with Sawyer. The funeral was probably either Locke's or Ben's.

The only thing that threw me was when Jack told the other Doctor about his father. Something along the line of "If my father is less drunk than I am then you can do something about it." To me that made the time line a flash back and I kept wondering where did this fit in with the other flash backs.

Then when Kate showed up at the airport I figured out is was a flash forward.

I would be surprised if we see much of the future stuff again soon.

msquared

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Strider
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I thought the flashbacks might be the future at the funeral Jack goes to. I was positive right after the radio call where it flashes to Jack in his apartment. The talk of his dad thew me off, but it can all be taken figuratively. And we did never actually SEE him throughout all of that. And yeah, I kept trying to figure out where the flashback fit in Jack's history and it didn't make any sense. Why was he suicidal? At what point in Jack's history would he have become a drunk pill poppin crazy dude? And why didn't they ever show us what was on that newspaper or whose funeral it was. Future was the only thing that made sense.
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Leonide
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I disagree that Jack w/ bad beard was the present, and the island was flashbacks. I think the show was purposely trying to make us think they were flashbacks, and the twist was that they were flash-forwards.

The set-up of the show so far has been: Island in the present, with one or multiple characters having flashbacks. Or maybe not necessarily that the characters are having the flashbacks in time with when they occur in the episodes, i won't argue that...BUT there's never been a flashback in regards to a character that involved scenarios that They Themselves were not privy to. So to argue that the creators not only switched the show to Present Day Rescued/Flashback Island AND switched the Flashbacks so they showed multiple viewpoints, not just focusing on one character, I think is stretching it a bit. It's an interesting thought, but one that doesn't really hold up to what actually occurred in the episode [Smile]

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Bokonon
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I think it was Hurley's funeral.

-Bok

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Fitz
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I don't think the funeral was Michael's. It would fit the neither friend nor family angle, but why would Michael's death affect Jack so profoundly (ie. drive him to suicide)? I'm guessing it was Juliette's funeral.
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Elizabeth
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Brain hurts.
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Strider
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This may be wrong of me. But it was in a black neighborhood, and the funeral director guy was black.

edit - and like Fitz says, it would fit the neither Friend nor Family. Or would Jack have called Michael a friend? Any of the other people you guys named would fit the 'friend' criteria. Or is it someone completely random we haven't met yet?

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Leonide
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I think it was Ben. Because it would be someone whose funeral Kate would NOT want to attend, and a funeral she'd be surprised that Jack attended.
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Strider
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quote:
I think it was Ben. Because it would be someone whose funeral Kate would NOT want to attend, and a funeral she'd be surprised that Jack attended.
Which is why I didn't think it was Rose. Although at least that death could be explained by her being taken off the island and her cancer resurfacing.

But then Ben might also make sense. Maybe he was forced to leave the island and his tumor came back.

I'm still veering towards Michael though right now.

Regardless, I think some really really crazy stuff happens on the island before Jack and Kate and whoever else get off.

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The Reader
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I don't think the creators are deranged. They are evil geniuses. That was awesome.

Here's some questions:

Was everyone rescued? Locke was walking away before the rescue call, it's a big island and there are plenty of places to hide. There may still be plenty of people left behind that a rescue ship would not have known about.

Will Dharma be acknowledged by its creators? The castaways would have a lot of stories to tell once they got home, and there would be many people that would have to answer for it.

Where is the island, and what is its nature? An island that large can't stay hidden for very long in the age of sattelites.

Who are The Others? If they really were the original inhabitants, then they have known the secrets of the island for however many generations they have been there.

Where did Walt and Michael go? They couldn't hev returned to the "real world" without some people noticing that were not dead. So, why didn't anyone go looking for the rest of the people?

Jacob, the smoke monster, the ruins, electromagnetism, dreams, visions, whispers, Naomi's ship, and many other mysteries I am probably forgetting have to be solved.

Many of the flashbacks in the last three seasons will probably be to the island, and to the events leading up to the current time, whenever that is.

The easiest prediction to make would be that Jack is going to search for the island. How would he do that? If Ben was rescued along with the 815 survivors, and he is not the one in the casket, Jack may go with him to find it. The same goes with Locke.

The way this season ended was a great way to keep interest. There isn't any more tension about being rescued, which leaves most available time to solving mysteries while still developing characters.

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jlt
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Why did Jack say he was tired of lying? Why did Kate say he'll wonder where I am (or something like that)?
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Strider
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Locke would never leave the island. And I'm sure there are other people there or why would Jack want to go back? And why would he be so upset and messed up?

I don't know how Jack will get back to the island, but he has to find it first. And he can keep all the maps in his apartment that he wants, I don't think it'll help. So he'll have to find someone who CAN help. Penny maybe?

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Strider
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quote:
Why did Jack say he was tired of lying?
They haven't told people the truth about the island or what happened? They made some kind of deal to get off the island with the condition of silence?
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Strider
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Why would Jack put his hands on Ben's coffin the way he did?

Do we know how the person died? It could be suicide. Who would want to be on the island so bad that they would commit suicide? Locke or Ben I would say.

You wouldn't expect Ben to have anyone at his funeral(no friends or family). Locke though, i'm not sure about. Everyone was mad at him when he killed Niomi, but if that situation does turn out to be horrible, then they'll all realize Locke was right and then why not go to his funeral?

Also, why was the obit so prominent in that newspaper Jack saw? What are the odds right? Was it an obit or an article? Probably an article. Meaning it wasn't a natural death.

Anyone have tivo with some zoom capabilities? Did we ever have a close enough shot to read any of it?

[ May 24, 2007, 12:49 AM: Message edited by: Strider ]

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Leonide
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Okay -- question: how is Kate able to be free? Isn't she still wanted for murder? I was going to postulate some sort of witness protection program, like all the saved Losties have to have new lives and identities, but that doesn't wash w/ Jack becoming a doctor again.

There has to be a few things that match up to decide who died: it has to be a Lostie that Jack had strong feelings for, not necessarily negative, or he wouldn't have touched the coffin at all. Couldn't have been Ben, then, unless he and Ben somehow connected after the Island. Also not a family member, and maybe someone who he was friends with on the island, but isn't anymore. So definitely not Claire, who is family.

What if it *was* Sawyer, and the "he" Kate spoke of was more like, a parole officer, or something like that?

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Lime
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The more I think about it, the more I like the alternate timeline possibility. I don't have much to go on, but that's par for the course.

1) Kate's not in jail. It seems unlikely that the FBI wouldn't meet her at the airport in the States and cart her away, especially considering the publicity that kind of story would generate.

2) Jack said that the survivors were lying about something... and I imagine if Jack got off the island and found his father was alive, he'd start drinking. Edited to add: also, he had a prescription from his father's practice.

3) Naomi said that the plane crashed and they found the bodies.

4) The episode was entitled, "Through the Looking Glass".


Some thoughts, piecemeal:

The "he" Kate referred to could be Kevin Callis.

I really enjoy the symmetry of switching from flash-backs to flash-forwards in the finale of the show's third season, when they've just confirmed that there will be three more seasons.

Edit to add: if in fact Jack et al were transported to an alternate timeline in the pilot episode, even if they get off the island, they are still "Lost".

[ May 24, 2007, 09:46 AM: Message edited by: Lime ]

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Leonide
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But an alternate timeline would be akin to an alternate universe, and the writers have said that's not what's happening.
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mackillian
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quote:
he had a prescription from his father's practice
I figure he just had a prescription pad from his father somewhere and filled it out himself.
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The Pixiest
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What if the flash forward was past the end of the 6th season?

What if they are NOT rescued and BEN is right and the people from Naomi's ship show up and start being even nastier than The Others.

What if they don't get off the island till the end of season 6?

The only bad thing is, there would be no tension about Jack and Kate anymore becuase we know they don't end up together (though they could still recognize some sort of hopeless love) and we know they live.

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Sterling
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I think the coffin was Locke. If the island was taken over by the rescuers, he may have had no choice but to evacuate.

And the writers aren't clumsy enough to have all the stuff about Jack's father be an accident. I don't think Jack forgot his father's death in a moment of stupor, and I don't think he just cribbed his father's prescription pad. Something weird is going on here.

I think Charlie didn't swim out the porthole because it wasn't big enough. I know I thought the same thing when it was happening, but when the camera went back to Charlie, I realized that the hole was probably only about big enough for head and one shoulder.

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Strider
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I don't really understand why so many people are latching on to this whole Jack's dad is alive thing and it's all some sort of alternate time line/reality. Another forum i go to some people are arguing that.

We never see Jack's dad. Don't you think that's odd if he's still alive? He tries to use a prescription from his dad, and when the lady asks him about it he quickly says he's out of town and storms out. And when he brings him up in the hospital he's drunk, high on countless pills, and completely distraught, and is speaking figuratively. Which is also why the doctor gives him such a weird look when he mentions his dad, because the doc knows his dad is dead. And then Jack goes, "don't look at me like that!", or something along those lines.

I'm pretty positive that the producers just threw all that Jack's dad stuff in there to throw us off the trail of the fact that this is all taking place in the future. I don't think even they expected so many people to misinterpret it after the reveal had been made.

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Lime
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Dang, they vetoed the alternate timeline idea? Oh well. Was fun coming up with it.
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graywolfe
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Oddly enough, the one thing that confuses me is Mikhail. Is he "The Others" version of Locke? He's been killed twice, and survived, no matter how many times he gets killed, he lives. It's ridiculous. Last night, from what I could tell, Desmond sent a harpoon through his heart, and yet he's good to go and swimming and playing suicide bomber (no doubt he survived it) a few minutes later after losing pint after pint of blood. That to me is insane.

I'm also confused by the writers suggesting an alternate earth/sliders type of reality is not the answer because it's hard to imagine why they'd shut down topics of conversation, and hard to imagine this couldn't be an angle. I hope they don't paint themselves into a corner like the X-Files did, and then finish the series off with absurdist run of the mill nonsense.

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DavidR
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I don't have zoom capeabilities, but I do have a largish HDTV and a pause on my DVR that goes forward one frame when you hit the pause while it is paused. I was unable to make out a name, but I think that the first name might start with a J. I'm not positive about that. I am positive that the headline of the article was something like "Man found dead" so I am confident that the person in the coffin is male. I suspect that it might be John Locke, but then maybe it is someone that we haven't eve met yet. I still have it recorded and can look at it again after work.

The whole thing about Jack's father has me wondering about something. Did we ever actually see Jack's father's body? For that matter, did Jack ever actually see it? I seem to remember an empty coffin being found with other luggage back in season one I think in the same episode where Jack saw Jacob manifest as him. Does Jacob only manifest as dead people or does he manifest as people familiar and important to those he wishes to see him? We know he manifested as Walt to Boon's sister just before she was killed; we know Walt was alive at that point. I'm certain that he manifested as Walt when he appeared to Locke in this episode though we don't know at this point if Walt and Michael are still alive or not. I'm assuming, of course, that it is Jacob that manifests as these people.

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DavidR
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I imagine that they shut off that particular angle because it is so easy and convincing of an angle that no other angles whould get much discussion.
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Damien.m
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Just watched it there and OMG. I <3 Lost waaaayyyy too much. When the writers were talking about a game changer I didnt think they actually meant they would change everything!

Oh and heres a link to a close up of the article.

Looks to me like its 'The body of Jo.....'
Could be mistaken about the 'o' though.

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Strider
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who's from new york but would be living in L.A.?

It definitely looks like a "Jo", then the crease, and an "antham

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Verloren
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I think Charlie didn't swim out (or close the door with him on the other side of it) because he really believed Desmond when he said that if Charlie didn't die like that, then Claire and Aaron (and the other Losties) would not be rescued.

He was also the real hero as opposed to the dark anti-heroes of Jack (beating up Ben and threatening death) and Sawyer (killing the guy when he had given up). I suspect Charlie's death and Eko's deaths are related to the island mythology somehow as they both had come to terms with themselves and their pasts and were able to go (somewhat) peacefully.

This episode was definitely better than what was happening in the beginning of this season. Having that pre-set finish date definitely helped, methinks.

Now, I am just hating the fact that I have to wait 7 months for the next season to start!

-V

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Fitz
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Yeah, so who the heck is ...antham? I checked IMDb and none of the characters have a last name that ends in antham. Maybe whoever's in the casket is someone we haven't even met yet.
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Strider
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I'm starting to lean towards that as well.

I'm pretty psyched to see what happened after that radio call was made.

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DavidR
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Jeremy Bentham is another philosopher contemporary to John Locke. Just throwing it out there.

Edit. Actually I am wrong. John Locke was an influence on Jeremy Bentham, but Bentham was born about 44 years after Locke died.

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The Reader
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Originally posted by Sterling:
quote:
And the writers aren't clumsy enough to have all the stuff about Jack's father be an accident. I don't think Jack forgot his father's death in a moment of stupor, and I don't think he just cribbed his father's prescription pad. Something weird is going on here.
I don't think he was speaking figuratively about being "more drunk than his dad."

When Eko had to investigate the "death" and "miraculous" recovery of a teenage girl in Australia, it turned out that the medical examiner had done the examination wrong, and the girl was in a coma.

Suppose the same ME looked at Christian Shephard. The incompetence could easily go to more than one case, and that ME could have mis-diagnosed him. The ME said that Christian had died of heart failure caused by alcohol poisoning. I don't remember an autopsy being done.

Christian may have been on the edge of death, but not dead, and when he arrived on the island, was healed by it. We never saw Christian's body, and one time when he appeared to Jack, he was wearing tennis shoes! If he was a vision, why would he need to wear those? Jack most likely would have imagined him in a full business suit.

We never got to know Christian except through Jack's eyes (except when he met Sawyer in the bar). He may have the same specialness that Walt does, and this was never revealed because there was never a complete character development, yet.

February. Sheesh. I guess I'll have to become obsessed with The Simpsons again.

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Sterling
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quote:
Originally posted by Strider:
I don't think even they expected so many people to misinterpret it after the reveal had been made.

Again, it's never seemed like the writers were that lazy or clumsy in the past. If they bring Jack's dad up twice, it's probably for a reason other than to throw off the viewers. An alternate timeline is hardly the only possibility.

I guess we'll see.

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Elizabeth
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First of all, Jack's beard needs to go.

"But an alternate timeline would be akin to an alternate universe, and the writers have said that's not what's happening"

I am starting to think of this a bit like The Time Traveler's Wife now.

The time traveled does not exceed the life spans of the characters by much either way. It would explain the non-aging of that one Other. It would help the writers to get Walt back on, who will be much older than he is supposed to be.

Maybe the characters "heal" because their bodies flip back and forth between times. This would have something to do with the babies dying at seven months, somehow(though I am not sure how)

Really, though, my head still hurts.

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graywolfe
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The one thing I would like to know is why they would ruin the ability to suspend one's disbelief about the beach executions by showing them alive and tied up, at day time in the preview 8 days ago? When they included that in the preview, we were all tipped off that the shooting, overheard on the walkie talkie by Jack and Ben, was faked. That bummed me out plenty.

And yes, why was Jack doing a really bad impression of The Dude in the future? He just wasn't nearly as funny as "his dudeness".

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Strider
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quote:
When Eko had to investigate the "death" and "miraculous" recovery of a teenage girl in Australia, it turned out that the medical examiner had done the examination wrong, and the girl was in a coma.
well, something interest in regards to that is that the chick actually had a real vision of Eko's brother. So isn't it up in the air what actually happened to her.

And here is all I'll say about the Jack's dad dispute. IF Jack's dad IS alive, it's not in an alternate time line or reality. It would be in the normal time line of the show, however far along in the future we were seeing Jack. And his living would somehow be explained through the natural course of events that happened. While I personally don't believe he's alive, I'll grant the possibility that the show could find some ingenious way to bring him back to life. I just thoroughly dispute any alternate reality/course of events talk.

Great find DavidR, it fits perfectly with the abundant use of philosopher names.

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Sterling
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quote:
Originally posted by graywolfe:
The one thing I would like to know is why they would ruin the ability to suspend one's disbelief about the beach executions by showing them alive and tied up, at day time in the preview 8 days ago? When they included that in the preview, we were all tipped off that the shooting, overheard on the walkie talkie by Jack and Ben, was faked. That bummed me out plenty.

This kind of thing is why my wife and I fight kicking and screaming to avoid viewing the ham-handed "previews" the stations concoct.
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Damien.m
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The writers have reapetedly said that, and I quote, "For the (insert huge number here) time Christian Shepard IS DEAD!"

As for the Losties keeping the island a secret, I just dont know. But Jack did say to Kate at the end someting like "Ive been flying with the gold passes they gave us". Sounds like Oceanic must have given them some sort of compensation. Plus how would the Losties have explained where they were and how they were alive without telling people about the island since the discovery of Flight 815 at the bottom of the ocean was obviously faked.

And I just realised that the 'Jo...' of the article may have been 'Ja...' as in James Ford AKA Sawyer. As to Kates reaction I can only assume that Kate and James may have fallen out post-island.

By the way I think all this alternate reality stuff is nonsense. It just doesnt fit with the mythos of the show.

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Elizabeth
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I see it more like a time blip than an alternate reality.
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Elizabeth
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Oh my lord! I just made a really long post and then hit Go instead of Add Reply!!!!!!!!!!!!!


OK, the .long and the short of it is, I think they are borrowing from The Time Traveler's Wife.

Desmond and Henry: long hair, lovable rogues, hopelessly in love with a woman.

Desmond wakse up naked in the forest.
Desmond sees, but cannot change, the future.
Desmond clings to Penny as more than just a lover, almost as an anchor, as Henry does with Clare.
Maybe the dreams are not dreams at all, but he is really there with Penny in the past, but is then whisked away.

Both men drink a lot.
Both men are incredibly sexy.

Henry could bot control his travel, and Desmond can;t either, but maybe Jacob can. And maybe they have him contained becasue of this. Maybe it is an illness, as it is in TTTW, and the island emits some sort of time travel sickness, but the people who can control it, tend to stay on the island.

OK, I'm going farther off the base, but I don't think I'm too far off, especially because the novel was popular at the ime the writers would have been creating these episodes, and there was a different turning of the plot this year.

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Lupus
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One thing that doesn't make sense is the "its not penny's boat" thing. What was the point if Desmond didn't use it. For them to make a point out of it seems to be strange. Who exactly is Naomi, and why did she pretend to be from Penny?

If the rescue group was able to find the island to rescue the losties, why couldn't they take Jack back?

I don't like the fact that Jack is a mess, and he doesn't end up with Kate. [Frown]

Though, I do wonder if it is possible that the flash forward isn't a real flash...but a possibility (maybe it is a Desmond flash or something).

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Strider
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quote:
One thing that doesn't make sense is the "its not penny's boat" thing. What was the point if Desmond didn't use it. For them to make a point out of it seems to be strange. Who exactly is Naomi, and why did she pretend to be from Penny?
Well, I think Penny is being watched by someone else also trying to locate the island for their own purposes. they sent the boat and naomi and her cover story to find people and radio back with the coordinates. Charlie tried to warn Desmond, but the question still remains what desmond does with that information and what happens when he relays it to the other losties. We still know absolutely nothing about what happens from the time the call is made, to when we see jack off the island. I'm sure a lot went on.
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Celaeno
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quote:
Originally posted by DavidR:
Jeremy Bentham is another philosopher contemporary to John Locke. Just throwing it out there.

Edit. Actually I am wrong. John Locke was an influence on Jeremy Bentham, but Bentham was born about 44 years after Locke died.

This is exactly what I thought when I read it. I think the person who died is a character we don't know yet.
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graywolfe
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quote:
Originally posted by Damien.m:


By the way I think all this alternate reality stuff is nonsense. It just doesnt fit with the mythos of the show.

How does one explain Desmond being able to jump forward and backward in time? One of the reasons I buy into the idea of something complicated and perverse like that is that Desmond is clearly doing things that are as far as we can tell, for now, essentially impossible. How do we explain the aspects of the Island and Desmond himself? My terror remains some half-baked, moronic explanation like that used in the X-Files to explain what happened to Mulder's sister. They've opened far too many "Twilight Zone" cans of mystery for there to be such a banal, and tedious conclusion as that future perspective shown of Jack and Kate.

I expect something fantastical and interesting. Anything less and I'll be quite disappointed. It doesn't have to be an alternate reality, but it certainly has to be in some sense magical, or far beyond our current understanding.

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Lisa
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It had to be a flashforward and not a flashback. How could Jack flashback to stuff he didn't know about, like what went on at the beach or Benry's reaction to finding out that Juliet betrayed him?

No, I think the troubled look on his face as he was on his way to the tower was because he was having those disturbing flashforwards. I don't think they're actually off the island yet.

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