quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: If the others aren't "bad guys", they must be insane. They're certainly not acting like reasonable humans. They kidnap and kill people, stick them in cages, force them to do manual labor, spy on them, etc.
Either they're amoral, and don't care about anyone not in their little society, they're mentally unstable, or they're all sociopaths.
If they were good, decent people, they should have helped the passengers, instead of tormented and hunted them.
My current suspicion is that the Others are essentially criminals, and the island is their jail. They're treated well, they get homes, television, etc. But they're not allowed to leave. I think they want to use the passengers as a way to make a prison break, and just use them for their perverse enjoyment in the mean time.
Technically, they haven't killed anyone.
Boone died of falling off the cliff with the plane due to Locke's faith. Shannon died of a gunshot by Anna Lucia's premptive need to protect herself and those around her. Anna Lucia and Libby were both killed by Michael's need to rescue Walt. Charlie was hung, but didn't die. Claire was kidnapped with baby, but not harmed.
The other passengers from the backside of the plane have not been confirmed as dead.
Have they been the reason deaths have happened? Yes. Have they actually commited the act? No.
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They may not have pulled the trigger, but they're certainly orchestrating events such that people are likely to be killed. They may very well have intended to kill Charlie.
Didn't the tail end people say that the others killed some of their people? I don't remember if they actually said that, or just made it clear that the others attacked them.
That aside for the moment, they're kidnappers, thieves, and quite violent. I don't see how anyone can claim to be one the good guys while stealing a ship at gunpoint.
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My hatred for the Others is making it difficult for me to watch the show. I wish Sawyer and Kate would go ahead and revolt successfully.
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quote:Originally posted by T_Smith: Technically, they haven't killed anyone.
You guys are all forgetting, Scott (or was it Steve) who was killed buy the others during the first season. After Claire escaped and returned to the beach, the others threatened to kill one person per day until she was returned. They killed Scott the first night. I'm trying to remember if they killed anyone else before our castaways set the trap and killed Ethan.
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When they kidnapped Walt, I don't think the Others ever intended for Michael, Sawyer and Jin to survive an exploding boat.
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The Others at the moment haven't given us a whole lot to sympathize with, but I can see how (given the circumstances) they could still consider themselves the good guys despite the actions they've taken. I mean with the Lost Experience this summer, we learned that the DHARMA group has recently unleashed a virus or something targetting certain genetic types that will wipe out about 30% of the two villages it's being tested on. That's a lot of deaths, but they justify it by saying that they know "with mathematical certainty" that those deaths can lead to a change in the core factors of the Valenzetti Equation (the numbers 4, 8, 15, 16, 23, and 42 which are attributed to the equation which predicts when humanity will destroy itself), which could lead to the ultimate salvation of humanity. If the Others have a similar view point, that what they are doing (even the deaths and such) is done in order to save the human race, then it wouldn't be surprising that they consider themselves the good guys.
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quote:I mean with the Lost Experience this summer, we learned that the DHARMA group has recently unleashed a virus or something targetting certain genetic types that will wipe out about 30% of the two villages it's being tested on.
I'm unfamiliar with the Lost experience. Can someone explain? Is this cannon?
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The others also expected Claire to die from the C-section they were going to perform. I was so happy to see one of the smug, 'you are not going to shoot me, you are not that kind of person...' shrinks get shot by Sun, I actually cheered.
It is clear the Others are shrinks, the seemingly meaningless testing makes that clear. An excersize in applied psycology gone wild, however, it is clear they are afraid of Sayid, and it is inreasingly clear that they desperately want to recruit Jack. It will be even more true if the wound that thier leaders wife took was not immediately fatal. They will certainly be forced to either give Jack lots of slack or twist his arm hard enough that it might make him fight.
I think the Others may well be the 'subjects' of a prolonged psycological test, test subjects who revolted against their masters...
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In response to the Lost Experience question, I had no idea what it was, and so I wikied it. It explains it a little bit, but I have to say, I'm still a little confused.
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I'll try and explain it the best I can. The Lost Experience was one of these real-life adventure games that ties into a show (other shows have used them in the past, there are certain agencies and groups out there that specialize in them). It is totally in canon, as it was sponsored fully by ABC (almost all the sites involved were hosted by ABC). There were a lot of websites that tied into the game, each one containing many obvious and many hidden clues. There were also real life clues (some people had to call certain phone numbers to get clues, clues were hidden in magazine and television advertisements, etc.). As more and more clues were put together, a sort of overarching story came into play.
The person behind the whole lost experience was a girl named Rachel Blake. She was determined to open up and reveal everything about the Hanso Foundation (the group responsible for the DHARMA Initiative). She released documents from the Hanso Foundation among other things. Finally in the late summer, she started revealing pieces of a large video file with each clue. When put together, this large video contained an orientation video for the DHARMA Initiative. It explained what DHARMA stands for (Department of Heuristics And Research on Material Applications), and what it was trying to do. See apparently (at least in the Lost world), when the world came to the brink of nuclear war, the UN commissioned a study. Led by a man from Italy named Valenzetti, they ended up formulating an equation that calculated the end of humanity, factoring in all possible elements of destruction (nuclear warfare, traditional warfare, overpopulation, biologal warfare, etc.). In the end, the equation came out with the numbers (it's never stated what exactly they stand for but they are listed as factors in the equation). The goal of the DHARMA Initiative is to try and change one of these factors and alter one of the numbers. They set up the research stations on the island and included a radio tower that would broadcast the numbers constantly, including if one was changed. If even one number was changed, humanity could be saved. The orientation video then ended and we saw Thomas Mittlewerk talking to some people (giving further orientation). He said that the DHARMA Initiative had failed up until this point, and so actions had to be taken. This group was to go into the villages being infected with a new virus (as I've already mentioned) and monitor them, including comforting the relatives of the sick and the dead. Apparently they had a deep backstory they were supposed to stick to. Mittlewerk emphasized that the 30% mortality mark had to be hit accurately (not above or below it) if this was to work and save humanity. At this point, Rachel (who was filming the video) was captured by Mittlewerk.
Right before season 3 started, the Lost Experience came to a close. People were being sent Apollo chocolate bars (the same kind seen in Lost) and were registering them on a site called whereisalvar.com (asking where Alvar Hanso is and why he hasn't tried to stop Mittlewerk). After enough were registered, the final elements of the plot came together. Rachel found out where Alvar was being held, and a lot of stuff was revealed. First, Rachel is actually the daughter of Alvar (sort of inconsequential). Second, Alvar had been sort of removed from the Hanso Foundation once Mittlewerk took control. He had no part in any of the recent plots. Finally, the stuff Rachel had found out was going to be put to the public to try and oust Mittlewerk. After all of this was seen, a new Hanso Foundation page opened up, with a letter from Alvar thanking the participants and Rachel for freeing him and helping him to regain control of the Hanso Foundation. The letter made it sound like Mittlewerk had been eliminated, but if you clicked on a certain part of the letter a hacked audio file played from Mittlewerk saying that the battle had been won by Rachel but the war was far from over.
That's about as concise as I can make the whole thing. If you guys have any more questions about it, just post them and I'll try and answer.
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Hmm, yeah. I did forget about Steve/Scott and pit dude (from now on, we can all call him Good Ole Pit Dude- man, I miss Good Ole Pit Dude).
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Question: this lost experience thing sounds cool and all that -- if you are into the whole treasure hunting thing, looking for clues, deciphering codes, whatnot....but since this information is supposedly canon, is any of it actually going to be revealed on the tv show? cause, i mean -- that's some convoluted stuff. and some incredibly relevant stuff. i don't want to have to call phone numbers and pieces pictures together to understand this 8-season show....
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You don't need to put together all the phone numbers and pieces and such. If you want all the details, go to Lostpedia. What I've said is a pretty decent summary though.
Oh and if you want the video Rachel shot (that included the DHARMA orientation as well as the stuff with Mittlewerk), here's a YouTube link for the fully compiled video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PPCCcXarkcPosts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
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The link I posted also has links to all of the Rachel Blake videos, as well as a link to Rachel's own FAQ/recap.
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Elizabeth, I don't know how I managed to get member number 8085. It was some big coincidence. I like it though.
As for the number at the end, I think some people here know what it stands for, but if you don't want me to tell you, I won't.
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I am going with the theory that you have 84 other screen names that start with "pfresh" but I am just grasping at tiny little straws.
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quote:I mean with the Lost Experience this summer, we learned that the DHARMA group has recently unleashed a virus or something targetting certain genetic types that will wipe out about 30% of the two villages it's being tested on.
I'm unfamiliar with the Lost experience. Can someone explain? Is this cannon?
No, but it is canon, I believe.
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Have to say, I'm getting sick of them taking everything lying down. I'm getting sick of them being in the best possible position and then voluntarily giving up the high ground.
When Sun shot the woman, I was giddy. I'm at that point. They've been pushed beyond I think the limits of rational human endurance, and I'm also sick of the Others always claiming to know everything about the crash victims, and what decisions they will make. She was wrong. Sun had the upper hand and she took advantage of it. Then again, you have to consider her words from before. She said that the only reason she'd need the gun was if Jin and Sayid were dead, so, when she shot the woman, she probably did it thinking it was revenge, at the very least, for Jin's death.
I want them to go back to before when Jack and Ana Lucia were trying to form an army. Gear up, roll out, attack for the love of God. The level of deceit the Others are going to, to try and portray a myriad array of false pretenses is becoming stupidly annoying. I want some answers before this six episode arc is done, I want progress. I've earned it after two years of watching this show.
Incidentally, I don't think the kid in the cage was a plant for Sawyer, unless you assume that the girl who talked to Kate (Rosseau's daughter) was also a plant, which I absolutely don't believe. I think the kid messed up and was trying to escape with his girlfriend.
I don't trust Juliet, but I like her character just because she helps personify the divisions that exist in their little gated community. They AREN'T united, and the crashies can use that against them at some point. I'd like to see the three of them escape using the sailboat that was just captured. I don't even care about Michael and Walt anymore, I hope they just sail away and that's it.
Whatever happened with those people in the research station in Antarctica who were listening for some signal, and heard it, and reported back to that woman...the details are foggy, but that was the most random plot line that was tossed in towards the end of last season, and I don't get the point.
I hope the crash people gear up soon. If I'm at the point where I'm excited about Sun killing a defenseless woman, there's something wrong with the show, not me. It's time for them to fight back. Next time Sawyer gets a gun, he'd better mow people down, and Kate too. Those two are the scrappiest of them all, next to Sayid. Act like it.
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So, what did you think of this week's episode?
I personally was very excited at the return of the polar bears. I don't know why, but the sheer absurdity of the situation makes me happy. Also, it's nice that they went back to the other side of the island. I saw the marijuana coming. I mean, when you see a random green house with lots of fertilizer; you just KNOW that it's going to be pot.
Ecko better be okay, because I was very disappointed that he didn't kick butt in this episode. Plus, where were the polar bear teeth marks on his body? I didn't see anything!
What do you feel about them going back to Jack, Sawyer, and Kate next week? What's going on with Sawyer and why are they torturing him?!
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Yeah, I assumed the pot thing as well. When Eddie or whoever said blowing something up, I was like "huh? I never thought of that."
I really liked this episode. We've got a possible future-predicting Desmond, the old school Locke back, and all sorts of other stuff.
As for next week, I'm cool with them going back to the other side of the island, as I'm still really interested in the Others stuff. It looked to me like they were torturing Sawyer in order to get Kate to admit she loves him. Why they would do that is beyond me; that's just how it seemed to me.
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I really really enjoyed this episode. It was back to the kind of episode that interests me.
I thought the drug greenhouse was pretty obvious too, and made sense why the kid asked about blowing something up given who he was. I also saw that Eddie was setting John up from a mile away. Right away I thought it was interesting that Eddie had issues with his father because it gave him and Locke a connection. Though I didn't think anything was up yet. Then later when Locke and him are talking and Eddie says that that girl likes Locke. And that she's looking for a father figure like everyone else there. Which is partly true of Locke, but I also made the connection right away that Eddie was like Locke's son figure. I started to suspect there I think. And then when Locke told Charlie that bad things happen to people around him, even though they're trying to get you to think something bad was going to happen to Eddie, I automatically realized that the something bad was going to happen to all those people, and that Eddie was setting them up. Anyway, I'm cool. Thouh I feel like every single Locke flashback that doesn't explain how he became an invalid is writers just dangling the fact that we don't know how it happened yet in front of our faces. EVERY flashback I'm like, "Is this the one? What could happen here that could make him lose the power to walk?" frustrating!
So if we take Locke's vision to be legit, should we be worried about something happening to Claire and Charlie soon?
Desmond's new power is interesting. Are we to assume that one or more of the others may have that power? Maybe Ben/Henry DID know that plane was going to crash afterall.
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Didn't something already happen to Claire and Charlie? Charlie was hung up by his neck, and Claire was almost killed, so hopefully they've had their quota of crazy things happening to them. Knowing this show, however, I wouldn't bet on anything.
I'm also interested to see what happens on the other side of the island. Why are they trying to be buddy-buddy with Jack while torturing Sawyer. And why do they need Kate to admit that she loves him. Perhaps they want Jack to witness Kate saying she loves Sawyer in order to break him down and bond more with whats-her-face from the Others.
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My favorite part of the episode was where "sawyer-look-alike-castaway 1" and "not-kate-female-castaway 2" thought they could just barge in to the conversation that the important characters were having.
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My guess is that the Others need Jack for a specific cause that none of the other Losties can provide them, something that is totally against his character. In order to get Jack to cooperate,
1st) they needed someone within the group that he could trust. Check
2nd) they needed to offer him something he wants. Check.
3rd) They needed to break his loyalty from any of the other survivors.
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quote:Originally posted by Evie3217: I personally was very excited at the return of the polar bears. I don't know why, but the sheer absurdity of the situation makes me happy.
Well, we know that the bears figured out the fish cracker thing in 2 hours, right? Although the cage Sawyer is in looks a mite small for a polar bear.
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I'm still thinking about the Copenhagen photo. If that wasn't a hoax, and if the stuff in it has any validity, they actually wanted Jack's father, and have only settled for him because Christian died.
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"I mean, when you see a random green house with lots of fertilizer; you just KNOW that it's going to be pot."
HA ha. I went right for bombs. Why? Because most indoor growers use organic fertilzers. Plus, as a gardener, I knew a constant supply of that much fertilizer to a fairly small greenhouse was way too much.
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This episode left me annoyed. I'm glad Mr. Echo is ok but really, enough of intense flashbacks already! Switch up some format and get moving with the plot(s).
Posts: 697 | Registered: Nov 2005
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On this episode, we have for I believe the first time a close up of Mr. Eko's scripture stick.
The key scripture quoted on it is Gen 13:14 "Lift up your eyes and look north". This is very odd scripture for a Catholic priest to carve into a stick. First, it ends and mid verse. The full verse is "look north, south, east and west". Second, it is a command given to Abram (Abraham) as he is promised the land of Israel as an inheritance for his seed. Which is not generally that important, at least to Christians.
The scriptures on the stick are listed only as references, no quotes. They include
Romans 6:12 (Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.)
Acts 4:12 (Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.")
John 3:05 (Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.)
Hab 1:3 (Habakuk 1:3 Why do you make me look at injustice? Why do you tolerate wrong? Destruction and violence are before me; there is strife, and conflict abounds.)
All of those make some sense within the context of Mr. Eko's back story except the Gen 13:14 quote which seems, at least to me, out of place.
Also, right abouve the jute binding on the stick, we can read 4:8:15:16. I wonder whether Mr. Eko carved those before or after he learned about the button.
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Hey, can someone fill me in on like the first minute of the episode? I started when Desmond was offering to fix Claire's roof.
Great episode. I totally saw Sawyer helping out the warden from the beginning, as well as the fact that the drug they gave Sawyer was a bluff. Is it just me or are they getting more obvious? Maybe I just know not trust anything on the surface, especially in a Sawyer episode. Still thought the episode was excellent. Though I was pretty pissed that Jack helped out so readily.
Posts: 8741 | Registered: Apr 2001
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One of the Others most likely. Someone around or above the age of 40 (based on Jack's estimate). Hard to say who it will be though. The preview seemed to indicate Ben, but that could easily be a deliberate mislead.
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I don't believe that they are on one island and The Others are on another. When they saw the plane pass over and told the guys to go infiltrate them, there's no way they got to the boats, got across the water, got to a point where they could disembark the infiltrators, and got them into the camps that fast. I just don't believe it.
The Others don't have a sub, it's some sort of below water research lab or something.
I think Sawyer got conned, and it worked pretty well too apparently, though I'm surprised that woman was THAT petty afterwards. She got her money back, Sawyer went to jail, even after totally copping to everything. Why go back and hurt him afterwards? She couldn't have known that he had ANY money, let alone however many thousands from the warden. So maybe he didn't get conned, but it's an odd addition to the storyline.
Guy with the eyepatch looks like something out of Saw.
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quote:I don't believe that they are on one island and The Others are on another. When they saw the plane pass over and told the guys to go infiltrate them, there's no way they got to the boats, got across the water, got to a point where they could disembark the infiltrators, and got them into the camps that fast. I just don't believe it.
The Others live on the same island as the Losties, but they do their research on this other island.
quote:The Others don't have a sub, it's some sort of below water research lab or something.
Well, they blatantly said "The sub is back, and there's a situation" right before they brought in Cole...and that might explain how they got to the sailboat and how they go in between islands.
quote:I think Sawyer got conned, and it worked pretty well too apparently, though I'm surprised that woman was THAT petty afterwards. She got her money back, Sawyer went to jail, even after totally copping to everything. Why go back and hurt him afterwards? She couldn't have known that he had ANY money, let alone however many thousands from the warden. So maybe he didn't get conned, but it's an odd addition to the storyline.
I don't think she conned Sawyer before, just turned him in. I'm referring to his supposed daughter. If she knows he's in on the scam with the warden, she might be lying to get him to give money to Clementine, which he does. It's a pretty farfetched idea, though.
quote:Guy with the eyepatch looks like something out of Saw.
He's probably the owner of the glass eye we saw in the Tailies' episode, too.
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