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Author Topic: Lost Season 4 thread - Spoilers Welcome
Uprooted
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The other thing I keep thinking about . . . in one of the flash forwards Jack tells Kate that they'd made a mistake, that they never should have left the island (she tells him he's wrong). And I don't remember whether it was before or after that in time that Hurley told Jack that he was wrong to have gone with Locke on the island, that he should have stayed with Jack.

I wonder if any of them know what they're talking about?

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Elizabeth
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Another:
http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Literary_works

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Strider
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quote:
The other thing I keep thinking about . . . in one of the flash forwards Jack tells Kate that they'd made a mistake, that they never should have left the island (she tells him he's wrong). And I don't remember whether it was before or after that in time that Hurley told Jack that he was wrong to have gone with Locke on the island, that he should have stayed with Jack.

I wonder if any of them know what they're talking about?

Hurley tells that to Jack way before Jack has that conversation with Kate. I assume that conversation with Hurley happens even before this most recent episode in the timeline(the jack and kate one), as that episode showed the beginnings of Jack's pill popping and drinking, and when Hurley told Jack that he should've stayed with him, jack was still sober.

I think in time Jack comes to believe they should've never left the island.

Also, Hurley saying he should've stayed with Jack doesn't contradict or invalidate Jack coming to realize they should've never left the island. The statements aren't opposites or anything.

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Strider
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from lostpedia:

quote:
The test given to young Locke by Richard Alpert strongly resembles the Tibetan Buddhist ritual used to confirm a reincarnated tulku (the Dalai Lama being the most widely known).

* The Book in the test is the Ba'hai Book of Law


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Uprooted
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They are not necessarily contradictory, but what split the group was Jack's conviction that they needed to do everything they could to leave the island vs. Locke's desire to stay on the island, learn its secrets, and oppose the group from the ship. So in a way, I took Hurley's statement to mean that Locke's idea was wrong and, by extension, that Jack's was right. Not that things turned out so well for him, so I guess that doesn't really make any sense.

I was also struck by Locke's high school self vehemently opposing the idea that he should be a scientist in light of that early Jack/Locke flashback episode "Man of Sciece, Man of Faith."

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The Reader
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Hurley doesn't think that things have turned out so well for him either. He thinks the Oceanic Six are dead. If he decides to go back, then he'll probably have to regain his sanity, or else believe that he is trying to get into heaven.

Abbadon was encouraging Locke to go back on the path he had abandoned. A walkabout can't be accomplished without violent self-reliance. That was apparently the path that Alpert was disappointed to see him take. Abbadon and Alpert represent opposing forces trying to control Locke's destiny.

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akhockey
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Personally I think Abaddon and his team are distinctly NOT affiliated with Whidmore. In Abaddon's meeting with Naomi, he tells her that the team she is protecting (Lupidas, Lewis, Miles, and Faraday) was hand-picked, likewise she was handpicked to protect them. What is the point of bringing a super-mercenary like she is presented as when they have Martin Kimi's (spelling, I know) group of crazy Sudanese mercs?

Then, in the last episode, and for the past few episodes, the research team and Lupidas seem genuinely interested in protecting the well-being of the Losties, even to the point of arguing with Kimi and getting a doc killed over it. So I find it hard to believe that Abaddon's crew is working with Whidmore. I think there is Whidmore's boat, Whidmore's Sudanese Mercs, and Abaddon's Crew. I wouldn't be surprised if, on the island, Kimi's crew dies, Abaddon's crew gets marooned, and the oceanic six escape to the freighter whose engines Michael fixes. Then either Mike/Desmond die, or get off-island under the radar, or get back to the island.

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Xann.
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Well, i was thinking, when locke picked the knife, isn't that the only object that wasn't science related.

the others were science fiction, compass, a book of laws, and i don't know the rest can anyone fill them in?

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Elizabeth
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I thought this was interesting. I typed "Who is Abaddon" and this came up:

http://www.geocities.com/christian_crusade/abaddon.html

"Revelation 9: 1: And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit."

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Strider
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quote:
Abbadon was encouraging Locke to go back on the path he had abandoned. A walkabout can't be accomplished without violent self-reliance. That was apparently the path that Alpert was disappointed to see him take. Abbadon and Alpert represent opposing forces trying to control Locke's destiny.
I like that, I'm gonna run with some thoughts...

Okay, now you said "violent self-reliance" but given what's transpired on the show, you could also just say "self reliance". Abbadon and Alpert both helped Locke in different ways. How has Alpert helped Locke? Alpert gave Locke the information on Sawyer so that Locke could manipulate Sawyer into committing the violent act that Locke himself couldn't do. Not doing away with violence, but getting someone else to do it for you.

Locke manipulated Hurley into going with them, and Ben even commented about it, and also separately commented about it being time for a new leader to take his place.

But if Richard is working in the best interest of the Island, why is it important to groom a leader who can manipulate? Why would whatever force that is behind the Island want a manipulative personality in control? And wasn't there a reason many of The Others(Richard included) weren't happy with Ben and his leadership anymore? Shouldn't they want someone who will lead differently?

I like to think that Richard is a "good" character. Does this automatically make Abbadon a bad character? Who is he connected with? What does he want with the Island? Does he help Locke solely so next time Locke sees him he'll "owe him one". Maybe he's something like a shunned Other who's trying to get back to the Island.

Also what is the relationship between self-reliance and manipulation on this show? Sawyer was a con man, manipulating people. Jack is super self-reliant. Ben is the master manipulator. Locke is moving from self-reliance to manipulation...I can probably go on.

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kanelock
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I had a thought about the first flash forward. It seems to me that they told us why, even though Jack was repeatedly flying the same route to and from Australia, he could not get back to the island. It's because the island was moved. Therefore the island is not in the same place. That also could explain why Widmore is looking for it, because it has been moved over the years.
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kanelock
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I had a thought about the first flash forward. It seems to me that they told us why, even though Jack was repeatedly flying the same route to and from Australia, he could not get back to the island. It's because the island was moved. Therefore the island is not in the same place. That also could explain why Widmore is looking for it, because it has been moved over the years.
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EmpSquared
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quote:
Originally posted by kanelock:
I had a thought about the first flash forward. It seems to me that they told us why, even though Jack was repeatedly flying the same route to and from Australia, he could not get back to the island. It's because the island was moved. Therefore the island is not in the same place. That also could explain why Widmore is looking for it, because it has been moved over the years.

It's probably more accurate to say that Jack can't find the island because, if he's taking commercial flights, the plane would need to crash because I don't remember seeing any airports on the island.

And when he says move the island, does he mean move it physically? Or possibly move it through time?

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The Reader
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Originally posted by Strider:
quote:
But if Richard is working in the best interest of the Island, why is it important to groom a leader who can manipulate? Why would whatever force that is behind the Island want a manipulative personality in control? And wasn't there a reason many of The Others(Richard included) weren't happy with Ben and his leadership anymore? Shouldn't they want someone who will lead differently?
Manipulation by a leader is probably required, but should be used sparingly. The leader might have to manipulate in order to keep people from rebelling against the Island itself. In other matters, it isn't necessary. The ability to manipulate is also one of many talents that Alpert might be looking for anyway. Anyone who is good at it probably has many other good talents of leadership as well.

Hurley's presence was necessary to finding Jacob's cabin, so Locke couldn't let him leave. I think manipulation was justified in this instance. Locke didn't seem pleased that he had to sink to that anyway. Locke trusts people far more often than he manipulates them. Unlike Ben, Locke doesn't care to force others to his point of view. He wants people to see it his way through their own choice. I don't remember specifics, but I'm sure that he left the option of whether leave the beach with him or stay with Jack up to people.

By many accounts, Juliet's being the most well known, Ben was a tyrant who manipulated people because he didn't trust anyone. He didn't trust anyone because he believed everyone was there to serve the Island. Anyone who differed from him on this, which would be anyone who wanted to assert free-will on matters of Island politics, was a danger. He was convinced he was the Chosen One, and needed to maintain control on the belief that no one else could "commune" with the Island as he could.

quote:
I like to think that Richard is a "good" character. Does this automatically make Abbadon a bad character? Who is he connected with? What does he want with the Island? Does he help Locke solely so next time Locke sees him he'll "owe him one". Maybe he's something like a shunned Other who's trying to get back to the Island.
When Abaddon was introduced, it seemed clear that he was a lawyer working for Widmore. Now I have doubts. He might be ageless and mysterious like Alpert, and only doing work for Widmore right now because it fits his ends. Abaddon isn't automatically a bad character. His name is the first clue. According to that link from Elizabeth, the biblical Abaddon isn't evil, but a necessary destroyer. Something like Shiva is in Hinduism, I guess, though I doubt the comparison is strictly correct.

That raises this question: What does he want to destroy?

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Sterling
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The theme of Locke wanting to be a hunter/warrior despite it not being his appropriate path has come up in the past. His inability to shoot someone in the flashback where he was living on the commune being a notable example. I think it's pretty clear that Locke isn't meant to be a warrior.

There's similar tests in a variety of cultures- does the boy tend toward finances or the arts, fighting or farming, scholarship or travel. I would hesitate to suggest the choices he made were as simple as "Locke is supposed to be a scientist." I think he chose seeds- farming, creation, fertility; the compass- travel, exploration, discovery; and the knife- hunting, struggling, fighting. I think he was supposed to choose the Book of Laws, not the comic (or the knife, which he actually chose.)

There's some suggestion that the "dead people" we've seen on the island are not at all what they seem to be; that the island is using the images of them for its own purposes. The vision of Ecko's brother even says something like "You talk to me as if I'm your brother." before the smoke kills him. The "visions" of Charlie and Boone, in particular, seem very un-like their "living" versions, and distinctly focused on convincing others to work toward the island's aims, whatever those might be.

And I very, very much disagree with those who think the island is a benevolent entity. It seems both ruthless and capricious in many of its "actions". Ben Linus may have been exactly the leader the island had in mind, up to a point. His failure may have been nothing more than failing to step out of the way when the island decided Locke should take the position. And it may have killed Alex, or at least allowed her to have been killed, in revenge. If someone takes a greater role in the island's plan, I don't think it will be because of their benevolence.

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Elizabeth
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OK, this is interesting. The Jehovah's Witnesses think of Abaddon as identified with Jesus. It is from Wikipedia, but hey...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abaddon

"Many Biblical scholars believe Abaddon to be Satan or the antichrist[3][4][5][6]. Others have stated that he may be one of the lesser demons of hell, or even a dark angel.[7]One source, The Greater Key of Solomon by Samuel Liddell MacGregor Mathers, stated that Abaddon was powerful enough to be used by Moses as a way of invoking the terrible rains of the Plagues of Egypt.[7]. in many places, Abaddon is pictured as a human sized locust, and is known as the lord of pestilence. Jehovah's Witnesses originally also considered Abaddon a demon, but now identify him with Jesus.[8]

According to them, there are several proofs in favor of their concepts, including Revelation 20:1, which reads that "the angel with the key of the abyss and a large prison in his hand seized the dragon (Satan the Devil) and threw him down into the abyss, and closed it on him (Satan)", meaning that the 'angel of the key' had power and authority superior to that of the Devil himself. Therefore, from their standpoint, Abaddon, "the angel with the key of the abyss" (see Revelation 9:1,11) and "the ancient serpent", "the dragon", Satan the Devil, must not be both the same person.

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Elizabeth
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Oooh, this is fun.
In this link:

http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/abaddon.htm

The Abyss is referred to as a "spirit prison."

Perhaps the island is The Abyss? That would go with Sterling's "the island is not good" theory.

"he opened the shaft of the bottomless pit and from the shaft rose smoke like the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun and the air were darkened with the smoke from the shaft."

The black smoke?

And here's another one:

"REVELATION 9:3 Then from the smoke came locusts on the earth, and they were given power like the power of scorpions of the earth; 4 they were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green growth or any tree, but only those of mankind who have not the seal of God upon their foreheads; 5 they were allowed to torture them for five months, but not to kill them, and their torture was like the torture of a scorpion, when it stings a man. 6 And in those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will long to die, and death will fly from them. (RSV)"

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The Reader
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quote:
And I very, very much disagree with those who think the island is a benevolent entity. It seems both ruthless and capricious in many of its "actions". Ben Linus may have been exactly the leader the island had in mind, up to a point. His failure may have been nothing more than failing to step out of the way when the island decided Locke should take the position. And it may have killed Alex, or at least allowed her to have been killed, in revenge. If someone takes a greater role in the island's plan, I don't think it will be because of their benevolence.
I think that whether the Island is benevolent or malevolent is ambiguous right now. It heals people and seems to protect the innocent. I think the Island does that for its own ends, but we still don't know what those ends are.
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Elizabeth
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Maybe the island is the key to the abyss, and people are trying to "open" it. The island wants to protect its secret or what have you, and develops a symbiotic rellationship with its inhabitants. Sometimes it is mutualism, sometimes it is parasitism, sometimes it is(inserted whatever the neutral relationship is here, but it is all a type of symbiosis. Maybe the island holds the key to the balance of things. Maybe the pregnancies not making it to term are a backlash from the fertility the island seems to create. The pregnancy goes to far in the creation side, so the death of the child balances that.

Sorry, rambling thoughts but the Abaddon idea got me going.

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Lisa
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Someone on the DocArzt blog pointed out some of the similarities between Lost and Solaris. In Solaris (spoiler warning), there's a planet that creates simulcrums of people who are important to those who approach it.
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Elizabeth
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What is a simulcrum?
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Strider
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So I was browsing the Literary works connections from Elizabeth and was surprised by the amount of connections between Stephen King and Lost. He even has his own article:

http://lostpedia.com/wiki/Stephen_King

The Dark Tower Connections are particularly interesting, not even plot points so much as stylistic and thematic elements.

Also, from this last episode. Do you think who's driving the car that hits Locke's mom is important?

Do you think it's possible that Ben is Locke's father? Or maybe even Jacob himself if Jacob turns out to be someone capable of taking actual human form and procreating?

Though I'm still rooting for Richard.

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Jeorge
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LOST starts...

NOW.

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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Elizabeth:
What is a simulcrum?

It's a typo for simulacrum.
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theCrowsWife
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Since this episode was mostly just setting up the finale, it wasn't all that impressive on its own. I guess it did its job, though, because I'm very excited about the finale.

My guess is that many or most of the Losties make it to the freighter, but only six make it off before it explodes.

--Mel

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Strider
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but that would kill off everyone on the freighter, what would be the point of Jack trying to get back to the Island at that point?

I assume most of the Losties are still on the Island. But that we'll probably see at least one or two deaths in the finale.

So my theory about Jin being one of the dead bodies they need to explain away when the come back to civilization seems to be wrong. I guess they did just make it up to make it seem more plausible that not all of them lived through the ordeal.

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theCrowsWife
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I would say that Jack wants to get back to the island to find his sister, Claire. Since she's hanging out with Jacob and Christian, she won't end up on the freighter.

--Mel

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Jeorge
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I'm really liking the things they've done with the story this season, and it seems that they're setting things up for Season 5 to be very different. How much of Season 5 will be on the island? How much will be off? Will the remaining losties be allied with the others? What will the O6 be up to? And will their story be running in a separate timeline from what's happening on the island?

In last night's episode, I liked how the episode ended with a short scene showing every one of the major characters and their predicament. It was kind of like they were saying to us: "We've set up a chess board...bet you can't wait to see how this game is going to play out!"

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EmpSquared
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So, I can't back this up at all, but I heard from my girlfriend that Emilie de Ravin (Claire) wants to do movies and such... so she might be disappearing for a little while.

So, when Jacob adopts the form of dead people, since he has to have them is there any part of them left in these images? Are they simply Jacob/Smoke monster looking like them, or have they been assimilated into Jacob/The Island/Smoke Monster2:Electric Boogaloo?

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Lisa
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The weird thing is that Jack is with Sawyer. Sun and Jin are on the boat with Aaron. Hurley is with Locke and Ben. Kate isn't with any of them.

And yet Jack is one of the O6, and Sawyer isn't. Hurley is and Locke isn't. Sun and Aaron are, and neither Jin nor any of the others who took that raft ride with them are.

They're almost as dispersed as is humanly possible. How are they going to pull them into a group of 6 people, exclude the others, and get them off the island, all in a 2 hour ep?

Incidentally, was I the only one who wanted to cry when everyone was met by people at the base when the plane landed except for Kate? She looked so alone.

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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by EmpSquared:
So, I can't back this up at all, but I heard from my girlfriend that Emilie de Ravin (Claire) wants to do movies and such... so she might be disappearing for a little while.

So, when Jacob adopts the form of dead people, since he has to have them is there any part of them left in these images? Are they simply Jacob/Smoke monster looking like them, or have they been assimilated into Jacob/The Island/Smoke Monster2:Electric Boogaloo?

The horse. Ben's mother. Those are two instances of the phantoms not having any connection to the island. So my guess is that the phantoms are pulled from the minds of the people seeing them.
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Strider
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quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:
Originally posted by EmpSquared:
So, I can't back this up at all, but I heard from my girlfriend that Emilie de Ravin (Claire) wants to do movies and such... so she might be disappearing for a little while.

So, when Jacob adopts the form of dead people, since he has to have them is there any part of them left in these images? Are they simply Jacob/Smoke monster looking like them, or have they been assimilated into Jacob/The Island/Smoke Monster2:Electric Boogaloo?

The horse. Ben's mother. Those are two instances of the phantoms not having any connection to the island. So my guess is that the phantoms are pulled from the minds of the people seeing them.
That used to be my interpretation too(still is i guess). But obviously Christian Shepard is the first one to break that mold. He's became way more prominent, and has even communicated now with people who never knew him before(most recently Locke, but also Vincent in that mobisode). Speaking for Jacob seems like a big deal too, why would Jacob not speak for himself?

I liked how they split everyone up too Lisa, should make things very interesting in the end. How much of who ended up being in the O6(btw, when did we start using this?) was proximity to the helicopter at the time of leaving, and how much was a predetermined choice or selection of who would leave and who would stay?

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Strider
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oh, also, The Orchid. That's the station from that orientation video that was released online only, with the rabbit. Interesting.
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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Strider:
quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
The horse. Ben's mother. Those are two instances of the phantoms not having any connection to the island. So my guess is that the phantoms are pulled from the minds of the people seeing them.

That used to be my interpretation too(still is i guess). But obviously Christian Shepard is the first one to break that mold.
He doesn't really break it. The island could have pulled his image from Jack's mind and memories. It would then be able to use it at will.

quote:
Originally posted by Strider:
He's became way more prominent, and has even communicated now with people who never knew him before(most recently Locke, but also Vincent in that mobisode). Speaking for Jacob seems like a big deal too, why would Jacob not speak for himself?

Maybe Jacob doesn't want to be seen.

quote:
Originally posted by Strider:
I liked how they split everyone up too Lisa, should make things very interesting in the end. How much of who ended up being in the O6(btw, when did we start using this?)

I think I saw it on some or other site. Kristin, maybe. And I'm lazy.
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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Strider:
oh, also, The Orchid. That's the station from that orientation video that was released online only, with the rabbit. Interesting.

I'm guessing that they're going to tie this whole thing in with the Nero Wolfe books. Watch them go into the Orchid and have Fritz there, doing his gardening stuff.
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Tammy
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I think I'd watch a series with just Hurley and Ben in it. Those two together crack me up.
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Elizabeth
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Could the Orchid be like the Garden of Eden? It would make sense with the whole Abaddon thing.
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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Tammy:
I think I'd watch a series with just Hurley and Ben in it. Those two together crack me up.

Lost Odd Couple? With Ben as Felix and Hurley as Oscar, of course, but without the temper.

They really are classic fodder for a buddy movie, though.

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theCrowsWife
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quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
Incidentally, was I the only one who wanted to cry when everyone was met by people at the base when the plane landed except for Kate? She looked so alone.

Sayid, too. And I teared up as well.

--Mel

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Uprooted
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I teared up when Hurley pulled Sayid over to his family. Not hard to make me tear up, though.

Poor Hugo and those numbers on his odometer.

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The Reader
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I like seeing Richard and the Natives back. I get the feeling that Keemy's team is overmatched. That's probably Ben's plan. He's counting on them to get him away from Keemy's team, even though they don't need him now. Because of his ability to manipulate people, Ben might have a plan involving Locke, who the natives do need.

Hurley and Ben have the chemistry of old friends. Hurley really can make friends with anyone, even when he knows its a bad idea.

That episode left me on my TV-watching toes. I can't wait to see how the O6 get back together.

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The Reader
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I was just looking through the Lostpedia theories page for this episode and was reminded that there was a lot of stuff that happened that wasn't just a setup for the finale.

Sun buys a controlling share of her father's company with her settlement money! How much did they get?

A poster on the theories page pointed out that the Kahana and The Black Rock have a lot of similarities.

Others have pointed out that Faraday has suddenly become a leader, and Keamy is developing into a layered character now.

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Strider
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which reminds me, Faraday had the Orchid symbol in his notebook! How and why is it there? Has Faraday ever consciousness hopped?
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EmpSquared
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quote:
Originally posted by Strider:
which reminds me, Faraday had the Orchid symbol in his notebook! How and why is it there? Has Faraday ever consciousness hopped?

Possibly something to do with the fact that, the first time we see him, he's crying at the wreckage of 815 on the news before being picked for the team.

Or maybe he was crying because of a time loop, and the emotional reaction is from a subconscious memory residue?

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Elizabeth
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"Sun buys a controlling share of her father's company with her settlement money! How much did they get?"

Now one of my top five moments in Lost history.

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Elizabeth
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Also, is there an aerial map of the island that shows the location of everything?

(OK, that last sentence is so dumb I refuse to edit it. An aerial map that shows the location of everything! How brilliant!)

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The Reader
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Because I think I should back up myself, I have the link for the Lostpedia theories page: http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/There%27s_No_Place_Like_Home%2C_Part_1/Theories

The people on that site really are on top of things.

Edit: This is the third time I have tried to get the link to work. The url tags don't seem to be working for me.

[ May 17, 2008, 08:44 PM: Message edited by: The Reader ]

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Strider
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wow, so there is definitely a 7th passenger on the plane. When the Oceanic lady walks back from the cockpit she looks to her left and smiles at someone. At time 1:45 when the camera pans out as she's talking to the O6 you can see a shadowy figure sitting down on the right hand side of the screen, behind the lady in our field of vision.
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Elizabeth
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A 3-D map of the island made by a fan. Where would Orchid be?

http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Image:Lost_island_map_v3_3.png

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The Reader
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It must be the station (labeled C4) on the eastern plateau, near The Black Rock. When Hurley, Locke, and Ben are going up the slope toward the station, the camera shot looks past them across the valley toward the western range. That station is on the western slope of the eastern plateau, so it is the only one in the position to be seen in such a way.

That is a great map.

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