posted
There are a few things I hadn't noticed about that episode while watching it, but I remember now.
Ben started the episode in Tunisia, the same place Charlotte and the archeological team found the polar bear skeleton with the Dharma tag. We already know that time distortion is important to the show. Time and space travel may also be related to what Ben and Charlotte did. Also, Ben was dressed for cold weather and polar bears obviously live in cold weather. It's possible, I think likely, that they came from the same place.
So, It may not be possible to travel directly from the Island to Tunisia. To get to Tunisia from the island, one would have to go to the Arctic first, and vise versa. That can explain how there are polar bears on the Island and remains of a polar bear in Tunisia. Polar bears, being the nearest living creature in the Arctic, could have been used for a test of time/space travel on a living animal, and would have been sent to both places.
Ben would use the ability to travel instantly through time and space to gain influence and information. This is why he is a preferred guest at the hotel, under an alias of course. Clearly He goes to Tunisia often, possibly in the current timeframe of the show, and travels the world from there, which explains his presence in Iraq. He might even be able to go to any time in Tunisia that he wants, within a restricted period from a time in the past few decades to centuries to the same time in the future.
Ben said that Hurley knows how to find Jacob's cabin. Ben and Hurley are apparently the only people capable of doing so. I believe that that the creators of Lost have said that Hurley is more consequential to the the show than is apparent.
Hurley does seem to have an ability to change the fortunes of people, even the very "course corrections" that the universe sets. That's his curse. But he only recognizes when fortunes change for the worse, not for the better. His presence on the plane may have been what saved so many people.
Hurley's problem is, he has no control over this power because it's so strong. He may really be to blame for the collapse of the deck, but not in the way he thinks.
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Also, the Arctic connection is interesting. My memory for all the hints they drop is not great, but I do remember some team in polar regions back in Season 2 or 3 sometime. I can't remember whether Penny was with them or if they were reporting to her, but presumably she was looking for the island or info about it, and it definitely wasn't in the tropics.
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quote:I wonder why Ben was dressed for arctic weather when he woke up in the Saharan desert. I think there is some sort of connection here with the dharma polar bear that was found in the desert.
The dharma polar bear in the desert was definitely this season, I believe it was the second episode. It was episode where they introduced the rescue team. Penny was not there, it was Charlotte.
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Last year ABC's "Lost" page still allowed one to watch new episodes on the old player. Does it still?
I'm so highly amused that Widmore finally blurted out what everyone's been thinking: Ben has the creepiest peepers in the universe. Posts: 6689 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: Please note that I said this
quote:I wonder why Ben was dressed for arctic weather when he woke up in the Saharan desert. I think there is some sort of connection here with the dharma polar bear that was found in the desert.
The dharma polar bear in the desert was definitely this season, I believe it was the second episode. It was episode where they introduced the rescue team. Penny was not there, it was Charlotte.
Well, in that vain...please note that I said this even earlier!
quote:Also, where Ben first landed in the Sahara...that's where the polar bear remains were found right?
I might not have spelled it out as well as you did, but I was going for the same thing.
What Uprooted is talking about is, I think, the two men at the end of season 2 in the monitoring station that call Penny after the failsafe went off.
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Yeah, that's what I was talking about Strider, thanks -- and I was careful to say "polar regions" because I had no idea which pole. And the Reader, I'm not sure if you thought I missed your comment when you said "please note that I said this." I was actually trying to make another connection to what both you and Strider had mentioned. Clumsily, obviously.
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I'm the one being clumsy. I should have noted the connection you were trying to make.
I just looked over Lostpedia to make sure that the Listening Station was in Antarctica, and apparently the exact location was never established in the show. It could be the Arctic.
Though I swear I remember a screen caption in that episode that said "Antarctica" when showing the station.
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posted
When Jack says "Bernard, got a minute?" are we supposed to assume that Jack knows that Bernard knows morse code, and Jack is telling him, "Be sure you're around when the message is sent."
Or is this part of some larger plot that hasn't yet been revealed?
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posted
A lot of questions have been answered, it seems. Actually, to be more specific, we've been given way more material to answer questions ourselves.
Charles Widmore was involved with the Dharma Initiative, and when Ben had the camp gassed, he started a war. Thinking back to the first season when Ethan Rom was this eerie, almost supernatural guy who was the only sentient being who didn't crash on the island, the scope has grown considerably.
That being said, the four-toed statue, Jacob, the nature of the island and the smoke monster are all mysteries that I care more about being solved. The supernatural elements intrigue me more than a flesh and blood power struggle.
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i was just rewatching the episode and when Ben wakes up in the Sahara, it seems like there's either steam rising from his body, or that he's surrounded by it or some sort of vapor.
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quote:Originally posted by MEC: Well, we found out that Tom was gay.
When they showed Rousseau, Alex, and Karl, my first thought was "Oh crap, they're going to kill Karl and Rousseau. Won't someone just F***ing kill Ben already?"
"Who kills Humperdink?!"
It seems likely that Ben is going to survive until the end. That said, he's a thoroughly rotten son-of-a-gun, and I can't help but hope he gets his comeuppance eventually.
He definitely drives the plot, though.
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Reader, I like what you said about Hurley too. I think there's more to him than meets the eye. So far it feels like everyone else has had a bigger part to play, and he's just the one left behind. For instance, when Jack, Kate, Sawyer and Hurley are all taken to the other side of the island, Hurley is sent back. Why him? We don't know. But I think he has a bigger part to play.
Ben is ridiculous, but I like the idea that the gateway leads to the Arctic (or Antarctic, we don't know yet). That would explain the polar bears. But if Ben arrived in the exact spot that Charlotte was doing her research, why is it deserted? Surely something like a polar bear in the Sahara would trigger an investigation of some sort.
I think that Ben is going to get Sayid to kill Penny. Whether Sayid ends up doing this or not, I don't know, because I'm positive he's seen Desmond's picture of her and knows who she is. But, knowing that Sayid ends up working for Ben, he must have fulfilled some kind of job for him, so there is a distinct possibility that Ben convinces Sayid to kill Penny. I mean, if we know one thing about Ben, we know that he's good at manipulating people.
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quote:That being said, the four-toed statue, Jacob, the nature of the island and the smoke monster are all mysteries that I care more about being solved. The supernatural elements intrigue me more than a flesh and blood power struggle.
Not to be snarky, but there would be no power struggle without the supernatural. It's just as important to Lost. I happen to be enjoying the struggle, but we all get our fun from Lost in our own way.
Originally posted by Evie3217:
quote:I think that Ben is going to get Sayid to kill Penny. Whether Sayid ends up doing this or not, I don't know, because I'm positive he's seen Desmond's picture of her and knows who she is. But, knowing that Sayid ends up working for Ben, he must have fulfilled some kind of job for him, so there is a distinct possibility that Ben convinces Sayid to kill Penny. I mean, if we know one thing about Ben, we know that he's good at manipulating people.
I think that really hits it. We know that Sayid's motivation is vengeance for the murder of Nadia. If Charles Widmore really did have her murdered, as Ben claims, then Sayid could easily be manipulated to kill anyone. After all, if Nadia is dead, then Sayid would think he has nothing left to live for.
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I give Sayid more credit than that. I don't think Sayid would kill an innocent person just to get back at Whidmore. And maybe if he didn't know the person was innocent, and was deceived by Ben, he might make that kind of kill...but with Penny, he knows what she looks like and would most likely realize who it is.
My hope is that if that situation does occur, he wouldn't kill her, and that the two of them end up teaming up to find the island. Part of me assumes(maybe an unwise assumption) that the off island folk will eventually get together to get back to the island, or at least try to.
Or if my one guess from somewhere earlier in this thread is correct, that two of that group get back to the island(maybe Jack and Kate), but get there too early in the timeline and end up being the two bodies that Jack finds in the cave in season 1.
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I was a bit disappointed at first with the episode, but I think it got better as it went along.
So Sawyer is alive and chose to stay on the Island. And Jack is aware of his relationship to Claire. It's not looking good for Claire's prospects of being alive. Or is it? Where is she now? What exactly IS Christian Shepard's connection to the Island?
We see where Jack's addiction originates from. So what is Kate doing for Sawyer? Something to do with Sawyers child? Is Jack jealous because he feels like he's Kate's consolation prize after she couldn't have Sawyer?
Rose made a good point about Jack getting sick. Why did that happen?
Also, I was kind of shocked that Danielle was really dead, I was holding out some hope that she survived that shot....I can't believe we never had a Rousseau flashback. What a rip off.
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posted
Did any of you watch the minisodes before this season? The last one showed the island after the crash but before Jack woke up at the beginning of the pilot.
Vincent is running through the trees, and he runs up to Christian Shepherd, who sends him to wake Jack up.
So there's definitely a connection there.
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I am not so sure Danielle is dead. We know the Island can do amazing things, why not save her? It is possible that she is in a form of suspended animation. Unlike carl, who was shot directly in the chest, Danielle looked as though she was shot in the abdominal region. We can always hope.
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posted
Unfortunately I can't watch the minisodes overseas, but I will as soon as I get back. I still don't believe that Christian Shepherd's alive. Although, who knows? It is the island, and that thing is crazy. But then, when Jack was trying to follow him in season one (and all the other seasons, but especially season one), why did Christian disappear. He's exactly like when Locke saw Walt. Or something like that. He was there, then he wasn't. Unless being brought back to life by the island gave him some super powers. But that just freaks me out. I don't think they would do that. Still, the question about Christian Shepherd is a prominent one.
Also I liked how they're filling in the gaps between the flash forwards. We see why Jack started taking drugs and drinking. But, now that we know that Sawyer is still alive, is that who Kate has to get back to? Or is it Aaron? Discuss.
What I really want to know is why Sawyer stayed on the island? It's obvious he has deep feelings for Kate, so why wouldn't he want to be with her? I did like, however, that Sawyer has taken over Charlie's job of taking care of Claire. He definitely has a soft spot for her. I like that. He's doing the whole big brother protective thing. It's a nice change for him.
One of my friends saw a commercial for this episode and it apparently said that one of the survivors dies. The last episode left us with a cliff hanger (as per usual). First of all, did anyone else see that commercial? And what do you think happened to Claire?
quote:
quote:I think that Ben is going to get Sayid to kill Penny. Whether Sayid ends up doing this or not, I don't know, because I'm positive he's seen Desmond's picture of her and knows who she is. But, knowing that Sayid ends up working for Ben, he must have fulfilled some kind of job for him, so there is a distinct possibility that Ben convinces Sayid to kill Penny. I mean, if we know one thing about Ben, we know that he's good at manipulating people.
I think that really hits it. We know that Sayid's motivation is vengeance for the murder of Nadia. If Charles Widmore really did have her murdered, as Ben claims, then Sayid could easily be manipulated to kill anyone. After all, if Nadia is dead, then Sayid would think he has nothing left to live for.
Sayid is very angry about Nadia's death, as we can see, and we already know that Ben is an amazing manipulator. Ben can get basically anyone to do anything. And we've already seen Sayid kill a random person for Ben. Penny is connected to Widmore, and if Ben can convince Sayid that Penny and Widmore has something to do with Nadia's death, I'm pretty sure he would be willing to kill her. He was a torturer. He is capable of killing possibly innocent people. I wouldn't put it past him.
Edit to add: One of my friends just pointed this out to me. When Jack sees his father in the lobby of the hospital, he's fixing a smoke alarm. Could that possibly have anything to do with the smoke monster on the island? Also, is that what is appearing to Hurley as Charlie? And if so, does that mean that the smoke monster is sentient?
posted
I think Christian Shepard has an interesting connection to the island, but I don't in any way think he's alive. At least not in any normal sense.
Also, I think Kate was referring to having to get back to Aaron, since Sawyer is on the Island and it'd be way too much of a leap in dialog and meaning to imply when she said that, she was talking about getting back to the island and not her child back home.
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Kate may be making amends for Sawyer. I think it's possible that she made a promise to him to do something about the problems he caused. Though Sawyer was such scum that I doubt she could do much.
I think it's great that Sawyer has completely redeemed himself, even though he had to kill Anthony Cooper to do it. Now that he acts as a selfless protector, even to Miles, The Island could recognize his benevolence and he could become more important to it than before.
Christian Shepard was resurrected in some way by The Island. He isn't the alcoholic bear that was Jack's father, but is still the caring storyteller that was. It brought back his good qualities for an unknown reason.
Also, the fact that Libby appeared to Michael on the Freighter, and then Charlie appeared to Hurley at Santa Rosa makes me think that the Island "resurrects" people for a lot of reasons, and the Monster has a lot to do with it, though how it gets away from the island is a mystery.
quote:One of my friends just pointed this out to me. When Jack sees his father in the lobby of the hospital, he's fixing a smoke alarm. Could that possibly have anything to do with the smoke monster on the island? Also, is that what is appearing to Hurley as Charlie? And if so, does that mean that the smoke monster is sentient?
That's subtlety. Are there other indicators that the Monster is hiding nearby?
After seeing the Mobisode with Christian, I think that Vincent is very important. He seems to act as a channel for something the Island wants to communicate. Christian couldn't wake up Jack, so he had to have Vincent do it.
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Does anyone else think "you're not supposed to raise him" might not refer to Ethan, but to, well, the dead?...
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The only thing I can think about the "you're not supposed to raise him comment," and something that's been bugging me since we learned that Kate is raising Aaron, is what the psychic told Claire about the baby. He told her that only she could raise the baby or things would go wrong. What happened to that? Kate is raising Aaron, so does that mean that he is somewhat corrupted?
I like the idea of Vincent playing a role on the island. He does seem to be more aware of things than everyone else. It's like the island speaks to him. If only we could figure out what's going on there. But sadly, unless the island becomes ridiculous, dog's can't talk. Well, not yet.
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posted
Remind me when they are supposed to wrap up the series again -- is it one or two more seasons?
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and Sterling, that's a neat idea. Even the way Hurley asks it, "do you think that means Aaron?"
So maybe it's not just Jack's dad appearing to him, but that he has a more active role in bringing his father back because of all the problems he's going through.
I still think it's probably more likely that that line refers to Aaron, but I like the idea.
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posted
I think it's also worth remembering that in the original "flash forward", at one point Jack refers to his father as if he were alive (something like "if he's less intoxicated than I am...") Admittedly Jack is pretty messed up at that point, and they were playing with our minds (not letting us know that we were flashing forward, not back), but still...
Aaron, right. I don't know why the name Ethan stuck in my mind.
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posted
The discussion on Christian Shepherd seems even more salient now doesn't it. I still can't figure out the connection between Alpert and Jacob- Alpert seems to be involved in the raising of new leaders (like when he met Ben in the woods) and until this episode I thought Abbaddon was the most evil guy in the show (even more than Whidmore) but now I'm not sure.
I think the move of the island could explain the Arctic/Tunisia connection. And they don't specify if they move through time or space (my best guess is both- explaining things like the Black Rock, maybe even Adam and Eve). Maybe the Black Rock was a recent addition to the island- during its last move through time, the ship crashed and that's how Whidmore knew to buy the log of the ship.
I loved the moment between Hurley and Ben about sharing the candy bar. And Ben (who's probably my favorite character) saying that his time of leadership was over- made me quite sad.
One last thing- I don't think Claire is dead, maybe she will die later on but we don't know that yet. Maybe she just stays on the island in the cabin with her father, I don't know. That's why Jack can't look at Aaron maybe- because he thinks of Claire and how she's with her/his dad whom Jack hates. The only reason she seems different was just her sort of dazed happy look.
Great episode. I feel like we're really getting a LOT of new material lately.
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Considering Abbaddon means either "The Abyss" or "The King of the Abyss", I think the writers intend for us to view him as a bad guy. Whether he is or not, that's an interesting new wrinkle from last night!
I had this very bad moment last night when Ben and Hurley were sitting there at the end, and I thought to myself, "Oh no! The island is going to tell John that the only way to save the island is to sacrifice Hurley! That's why Hurley came along!"
I can't tell you how how happy I was to be wrong about that! Posts: 324 | Registered: Mar 2008
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posted
My brain almost exploded trying to process everything in that last episode. I think Christian and Claire are both dead, but have been "resurrected" by the island.
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I don't think Claire is dead. She was most likely shown the truth about the island, or that was not really her and she is really somewhere else. What about the reveal that the others were after Locke from the time he was born!!! I find, after shows like last night, that Ben is becoming one of my favorite characters on the show. He is so complex. I also believe that the "Charlie" and "Christian" that we see off the island is really the Black Cloud. I think jacob is using it to try to get the people to return to the island. we shall see.
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quote:Originally posted by kanelock: I also believe that the "Charlie" and "Christian" that we see off the island is really the Black Cloud.
Considering Christian caused issues with the smoke detector in the hospital, I think that's a plausible theory.
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Why didn't Locke recognize Richard? Remember when he faced down Ben in front of the Others, and they listened to him, rather than to Ben? Richard was there then.
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I don't think I've seen this anywhere, which kind of surprises me, but am I the only one who thinks that Richard Alpert is dead?
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It seems to me that Locke is some kind of prophet. I couldn't be sure about that before. I thought he was deluded, but when Richard visited Locke as a young boy, there was a crude drawing of a black cloud attacking a stick figure. I think the drawing was tacked to the wall. And then there was the game.
Locke's possible father (Emily's boyfriend) was called only "him," as Jacob was at first. That allusion can't be accidental.
quote:Why didn't Locke recognize Richard? Remember when he faced down Ben in front of the Others, and they listened to him, rather than to Ben? Richard was there then.
Locke only saw Alpert once, as far as we know, and because he was a little boy, he may not remember what Alpert looks like. He should recognize the name, but I don't know if his name was ever mentioned in Locke's presence during the scene you mention.
I agree with kanelock. The others' being after Locke his whole life is a big reveal. He really has been a lost soul, avoiding his destiny.
Whatever Christian's state is (resurrected, in my opinion), Claire doesn't share it. I think she's alive and well, and still bruised from her house explosion. In between when the house was attacked and when she left Sawyer's group, she still cared for Aaron and interacted normally with other people. Christian couldn't, or didn't want to, interact normally. His interactions with people on the Island were cryptic, until he was in Jacob's cabin. That probably has something to do with the cabin.
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posted
As for Richard. Could it be possible that only we see Richard as he appears? Perhaps he looks like other people to the Losties, and that is why they don't seem surprised to see him?
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posted
Are Richard Alpert and Abbadon on the same team? I can't remember much about Abbadon, just that he was in some scene where he appeared rather menacing, as I recall interacting with one of the women who was on the crew of Whidmore's ship -- am I wrong?
Why was it wrong for Locke as a child to choose the knife? Alpert didn't want him to choose violence? He certainly showed up on the island with a set of knives and the island wanted him anyway, apparently. And he couldn't become the "chosen one" until he killed his father, or had Sawyer do it at Richard's suggestion.
What's the significance of the marks on Hurley's shirt? They're similar to the mark on Locke's face.
Like many others have said previously, I can't help thinking about the psychic's admonition to Claire to be sure no one else raised her child.
That's a good point about Christian setting off the smoke detector.
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posted
One of the things that puzzles me is, though the psychic said that Claire needed to raise her own child, in another episode, he freely admitted that he's a fraud. So which do we believe?
Maybe the knife didn't "already" belong to Locke - it was something he wasn't ready for yet, and by taking it before it was already his he was showing that he was not ready.
Abbadon shows up at the mental ward in the future, and he also gives instructions to Naomi. I have no theories about whether he's with or against any particular person or group.
Giving instructions to Naomi suggests he's on Whidmore's team, but sending Locke onto his walkabout quest seems to contradict that, since Locke is definitely against Whidmore.
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Maybe he had ulterior motives for getting Locke to the island. Maybe Locke wasn't actually right or meant for the Island and by helping to bring him there it will hurt the Island and help Whidmore.
Having said that, I don't really believe it, I DO think Locke was meant for the Island.
So why did Locke pick the knife instead of the magazine? Was it for the same reason he went against the guidance counselor?
Uprooted, the magazine was some sort of mystery tale about a hidden island, seemed like an obvious thing(from our standpoint) to belong to Locke.
This may or may not be an obvious question, but is Cooper really Locke's father or not? If not, could it be Richard?
I don't think Richard is dead, and I don't think Claire is dead either, but I do wonder what happened to her after she woke up and saw Christian.
I agree the Locke reveal is a huge reveal. That was pretty unexpected.
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The question about Cooper being Locke's father, I always had doubts about that, because I thought the two were far too close in age. The actors are actually only 8 years apart. Now that we know Locke's father is much older than his mother (I think something along those lines was said?) it simply strains at believability to think he really is Locke's father - unless he's got the Richard Syndrome. Posts: 324 | Registered: Mar 2008
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The father was roughly twice the age of the mother, which I guess would put him in his early to mid thirties at the time of Locke's birth.
If it is Richard it would explain why he helps him out against Ben on the Island, and why he tries again when Locke is a teenager.
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Oh, also, I completely forgot to mention another important connection/reveal. Locke was born in his mother's sixth month of pregnancy. She lived though.
Posts: 8741 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Strider: Uprooted, the magazine was some sort of mystery tale about a hidden island, seemed like an obvious thing(from our standpoint) to belong to Locke.
This may or may not be an obvious question, but is Cooper really Locke's father or not? If not, could it be Richard?
I wasn't really wondering about the magazine -- it did have an obvious connection to Locke and the story line. However, Richard didn't seem to react as much to Locke's not taking that, while he reacted strongly against his choosing the knife.
I wondered the same things about Cooper, but we do know that the kidney was a match.
But those marks on Hurley's shirt . . .?
Posts: 3149 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Interesting! An Amazon list of "Lost" literature. (Sy that ten times fast.) I was looking for a different list I had found, but in the meantime, here is this one:
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