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Author Topic: Battlestar Galactica Season 4.5 Thread
ReddwarfVII
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The warning signs. From Anders, "I saw a woman, Tory you saw a man." Head Baltar and Head Six. Another thought here, three individuals have had visions in which people have spoken to them. Caprica Six, Kara, and Baltar. Just a thought here, but Caprica is a cylon, I am pretty sure that Kara is half cylon, so that leaves Baltar. Hmmm....I think Kara said that her dad left when she was really young. Going out on a limb here, Baltar is either Daniel or he's a half cylon too. What do ya'll think?
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Lyrhawn
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I don't think the ability to download is hereditary Reddwarf.

But wow, seriously, holy plot exposition Batman! Nice as it was to get all those answers, and for that matter, to have a bit of a break from the usual Galactica characters that take up most episodes (love them though I do), I think the stars of this episode were Ellen and Cavil. That was some really great acting (good writing too).

I can't believe there are only five episodes left! But if they dispense information at the same rate as they did in this one, five would be more than enough.

PS. John Hodgman!?!

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Blayne Bradley
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Boomer probly brings Ellen to colony with tools, remake rezzing tech and then kara gets rez'ed, mind wiped and sent back to fleet.
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Lyrhawn
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Yeah, except Boomer stole Ellen and jumped only a couple days before Anders went in for surgery.
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Nighthawk
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OK, well I'm lost, but again: I've only been watching since four episodes ago.

I'm hoping things will explain themselves.

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ReddwarfVII
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
I don't think the ability to download is hereditary Reddwarf.

Okay, I hear you, so why then can't humans do it too? See the thing is, the earth cylons had stopped using it, but the five were able to re-create technology and use it themselves. I would be really surprised if that included sticking a wi-fi hub in their brain to make it possible. I am assuming that they did not do that, therefore they would have to inherit the ability to download from their parents. Remember that they were bio-engineered with this ability on Kobol. It would make sense that this function would be "hard-wired" into their DNA. So even after multiple generations of natural reproduction, that ability would still be there. They just had to re-create the tech that made it possible.

Like their bodies are constantly giving off the signal, they just needed to rebuild the antenna to receive the signal, the hardware/software to interpret the data and input it into newly cloned bodies. Or maybe that signal is produced by the chemical reactions that happen within their bodies at the point of death.

Anyways my point would be that this would have been an inherited genetic trait. None of the humanoid cylons have any hardware in their bodies or their brains. If they did, the cylon detector would have be alot easier to develop. Baltar wouldn't have needed to test blood samples, they could have just done an x-ray and figured out who was the cylons.

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ricree101
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This episode also casts the Boomer/Cavil relationship in a much different light. Boomer was famous for having lived among the humans for so long. To convince her to completely turn her back on humanity and embrace her machine heritage would, to his mind, represent a vindication of everything he believes in.
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Telperion the Silver
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quote:
Originally posted by Nighthawk:
OK, well I'm lost, but again: I've only been watching since four episodes ago.

I'm hoping things will explain themselves.

Wait... you've ONLY seen four episodes ever?
If true... STOP!!!!
Go buy/rent the DVD's and start from the beginning. You won't understand or appreciate the show starting at the end.
[Smile]

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Nighthawk
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Yeah, I know, and I will. I did like the episodes I've seen so far, but this one had very high expectations as far as expected knowledge.
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Lyrhawn
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Dude...you just ruined part of the magic. Stop immediately and start back at the beginning.
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ReddwarfVII
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Nighthawk, iTunes provides a wonderful instant gratification for your situation if you have the hard drive space and the bandwidth to download all the eps.

Having said, welcome to the wonderful world of BSG, the best sci-fi ever written. We're glad to have you with us for the amazing finale of this game-changing series.

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ricree101
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I would like to know more about the transition from centurion to humanoid. What exactly happened to the existing centurions when the human models were made? How long has Cavil hated his human form? It can't have been since the beginning, or else I can't see it going to its completion in the first place.
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Lisa
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What it sounds like is something like this:

3000 before present, the Kobolian Cylons left Kobol for Earth.

During the next 1000 years, they replaced the population of Earth altogether so that everyone was a Kobolian Cylon.

At the same time that the Cylons left Kobol, the 12 tribes of humans left as well, to found the 12 colonies.

What happened to Kobol that made everyone leave? We don't know.

2000 years before present, Earth was destroyed and everyone was killed. The five scientists who had recreated resurrection downloaded onto a ship in orbit around Earth. They knew (somehow) about the 12 colonies, and they knew that the humans there would create artificial life. They traveled to the 12 colonies to try and warn the humans to treat these new Cylons well, but it took them almost 2000 years to get there, and by that time, it was too late, and the humans were at war with the Centurians.

The Final Five Kobolian Cylons convinced the Centurians to end the war, and helped them to create 8 models of skinjob. Unlike the Kobolian Cylons, these 8 models (7, after the Johns/Cavils killed the Daniels) couldn't procreate with one another. Perhaps that feature would have been turned on eventually had Cavil not boxed the Final Five, or perhaps the Kobolians weren't able to do it, but it seems that the Kobolians can procreate with the newer skinjobs.

The Cavils also lobotomized the Centurians. Turned them into slaves. Kind of ironic, when you think about it. The same mistake that the humans made with the Centurians. And Cavil doesn't think he's very human...

My guess is that Cavil was flawed from the outset. I think that Ellen was wrong; he is irredeemable. His self-loathing is something that's never going to go away, and his hatred of his creators stems from that.

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Blayne Bradley
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
Yeah, except Boomer stole Ellen and jumped only a couple days before Anders went in for surgery.

I am almost certain that this was "X many months ago" not 4 days.
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Jon Boy
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quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
During the next 1000 years, they replaced the population of Earth altogether so that everyone was a Kobolian Cylon.

I don't follow this part—what population of Earth?
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Jon Boy
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quote:
Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
Yeah, except Boomer stole Ellen and jumped only a couple days before Anders went in for surgery.

I am almost certain that this was "X many months ago" not 4 days.
Nope. I just watched it again, and it says "2 days ago".
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ricree101
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quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:


The Cavils also lobotomized the Centurians. Turned them into slaves. Kind of ironic, when you think about it. The same mistake that the humans made with the Centurians. And Cavil doesn't think he's very human...

This is the part I'm curious about.

I was always under the impression that the old centurions became humanoid models, and then later reintroduced the new centurions because of their use in battle and heavy lifting.

It's looking, though, like the other humanoid models were created separately, and then betrayed the centurions. This raises two big problems, though. First, if this is the case why does Cavil identify with the Colonial Cylons enough to want revenge. If he were totally independent, he would have no real stake in the past injustice, especially having committed it himself.

It would also raise the question of how the humanoid models won. They were likely outnumbered and outgunned, and the centurions would have been stronger 1 on 1 and already in control of all the military equipment. The best answer I can come up with originates from the episode where Athena linked into the Galactica computer system to temporarily disable the attacking Cylons. If a single humanoid Cylon was able to do this with unfamiliar systems, it may be that they were so superior to the centurions from an electronics perspective that they were able to win the fight without really having to take it into a physical shootout.

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neo-dragon
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quote:
Originally posted by ricree101:
How long has Cavil hated his human form? It can't have been since the beginning, or else I can't see it going to its completion in the first place.

I don't think that he ever had a non-human form, so he's probably always hated what he is. I don't think that the minds of centurions were transferred into flesh and blood bodies. I figured the 8 models were made from scratch by the final 5. That does indeed fail to explain what happened to the fully sentient centurions of the first war though.

Speaking of Cavil, I have to say that his suddenly revealed hatred for for all things flesh and blood seemed a bit forced to me. Sure, he was always the most callous toward humanity, but I don't recall any sign of the self hatred that now seems to be his driving motivation. And maybe it's my imagination, or perhaps my imperfect memory of past episodes, but I thought that he seemed reverent to the final 5 back when D'anna was trying to learn their identities.

quote:
It would also raise the question of how the humanoid models won. They were likely outnumbered and outgunned, and the centurions would have been stronger 1 on 1 and already in control of all the military equipment.
There's no indication that there was a conflict for cylon leadership. The old centurions knew that humanoid models were the next step in their evolution. They were trying to make them themselves.
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Jon Boy
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quote:
Originally posted by ricree101:
It's looking, though, like the other humanoid models were created separately, and then betrayed the centurions. This raises two big problems, though. First, if this is the case why does Cavil identify with the Colonial Cylons enough to want revenge. If he were totally independent, he would have no real stake in the past injustice, especially having committed it himself.

I would guess that he simply hates humans. I don't think he really sympathizes with the Colonial Cylons, but he probably uses it as an excuse to try to wipe out the beings he's modeled after.
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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Jon Boy:
quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
During the next 1000 years, they replaced the population of Earth altogether so that everyone was a Kobolian Cylon.

I don't follow this part—what population of Earth?
That'd be us. Either they could crossbreed with us and they bred true, or they wiped us out. I'm inclined to think the former.
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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by ricree101:
It's looking, though, like the other humanoid models were created separately, and then betrayed the centurions. This raises two big problems, though. First, if this is the case why does Cavil identify with the Colonial Cylons enough to want revenge.

Just because he says it doesn't make it true. It was clear to me that that's just his excuse for his behavior. He hates the limitations that were built into him. He identifies that as "human". So he hates everything human and wants to destroy it.

Actually... now that I think about it, it might be the biggest stereotype of them all. He's the firstborn. And he's furious at the Final Five for creating more models. Like Ellen said, "jealousy and rage". But he directs his anger at his parents, rather than his siblings.

quote:
Originally posted by ricree101:
If a single humanoid Cylon was able to do this with unfamiliar systems, it may be that they were so superior to the centurions from an electronics perspective that they were able to win the fight without really having to take it into a physical shootout.

That makes sense.
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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by neo-dragon:
Speaking of Cavil, I have to say that his suddenly revealed hatred for for all things flesh and blood seemed a bit forced to me. Sure, he was always the most callous toward humanity, but I don't recall any sign of the self hatred that now seems to be his driving motivation.

I can't pin it down, but I remember him talking about how they shouldn't keep trying to pretend that they're humans. That they should work on being the best machines they can be. That seems like it fits well with the motivations we saw in this episode.

quote:
Originally posted by neo-dragon:
And maybe it's my imagination, or perhaps my imperfect memory of past episodes, but I thought that he seemed reverent to the final 5 back when D'anna was trying to learn their identities.

I think he was trying to prevent her from seeing who they were. So he used religious talk, since that's what would work best with her.
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Jon Boy
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quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:
Originally posted by Jon Boy:
I don't follow this part—what population of Earth?

That'd be us. Either they could crossbreed with us and they bred true, or they wiped us out. I'm inclined to think the former.
I don't see why it's necessary to assume that there were ever regular humans on Earth. It seems like an unnecessary complication, in my opinion.
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ricree101
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quote:
Originally posted by neo-dragon:
That does indeed fail to explain what happened to the fully sentient centurions of the first war though.


There's no indication that there was a conflict for cylon leadership. The old centurions knew that humanoid models were the next step in their evolution.

Right, but at some point the old centurions did go away, either as the new subjugated ones, or they disappeared altogether. I don't really see them just bowing out gracefully altogether, so my thought is that they either somehow transitioned into the human models or they were forcefully defeated by the human models.

As I see it, there needs to be some continuity between the centurions and the skinjobs, otherwise it is merely replacement rather than a "step in their evolution". One solution that might work is if a collection of centurion memories was made available to be downloaded by the human models, even though they still had new and unique personalities. We're already seen examples of partial memory transfer from one instance of a model to another. For example, one of the eights mentioned downloading some of Sharon's memories when she went back to the basestar to recover Hera, and Sharon had some of Boomer's memories when she first met Helo on Caprica. If the human models were able to access centurion memories in a similar fashion, it would allow for the necessary continuity, while still making them new creations of the original five.

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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Jon Boy:
quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:
Originally posted by Jon Boy:
I don't follow this part—what population of Earth?

That'd be us. Either they could crossbreed with us and they bred true, or they wiped us out. I'm inclined to think the former.
I don't see why it's necessary to assume that there were ever regular humans on Earth. It seems like an unnecessary complication, in my opinion.
Because we know that they got to Earth 3000 years before present and that Earth was destroyed 2000 years before present. That means that they were only on Earth for 1000 years. Which means that they aren't us.
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Alcon
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quote:
quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy:

quote:Originally posted by Lisa:

quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy:
I don't follow this part—what population of Earth?

That'd be us. Either they could crossbreed with us and they bred true, or they wiped us out. I'm inclined to think the former.

I don't see why it's necessary to assume that there were ever regular humans on Earth. It seems like an unnecessary complication, in my opinion.

Because we know that they got to Earth 3000 years before present and that Earth was destroyed 2000 years before present. That means that they were only on Earth for 1000 years. Which means that they aren't us.

But we don't know that this is our Earth. The 13th tribe arrived there and they 'cristened' it Earth. They haven't shown us any continents since they arrived. Though they did at the end of the third season, hinting they will eventually find our Earth.

And as someone mentioned, in the original series they found a planet called 'Terra' that was decimated before they found the real Earth.

I really don't think this is our Earth, I think this is basically Terra.

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Jon Boy
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Lisa: But it doesn't mean that we exist in that universe. Or maybe we existed in the far distant past. Like, perhaps humanity lived on Earth and then moved to Kobol, invented the Cylons, and spread out from there, with the thirteenth tribe repopulating Earth. But I seem to remember some quote from Ronald Moore or Bear McCreary implying at the end of season 3 that the Earth in BSG was not our Earth—hence the different version of "All Along the Watchtower".
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Lyrhawn
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quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:
Originally posted by Jon Boy:
quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:
Originally posted by Jon Boy:
I don't follow this part—what population of Earth?

That'd be us. Either they could crossbreed with us and they bred true, or they wiped us out. I'm inclined to think the former.
I don't see why it's necessary to assume that there were ever regular humans on Earth. It seems like an unnecessary complication, in my opinion.
Because we know that they got to Earth 3000 years before present and that Earth was destroyed 2000 years before present. That means that they were only on Earth for 1000 years. Which means that they aren't us.
I'm still confused as to why there would have to be people on Earth before they got there. If they have enough technology to fly spaceships to Earth, certainly they have the technology to settle the colony from scratch without there being an indigenous population.
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twinky
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quote:
Originally posted by Jon Boy:
But I seem to remember some quote from Ronald Moore or Bear McCreary implying at the end of season 3 that the Earth in BSG was not our Earth—hence the different version of "All Along the Watchtower".

Yup.
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ricree101
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
I'm still confused as to why there would have to be people on Earth before they got there. If they have enough technology to fly spaceships to Earth, certainly they have the technology to settle the colony from scratch without there being an indigenous population.

I don't think Lisa's point was that they needed any help to settle the world, but rather that if this was our Earth then there must have been humans there at some point. If there were humans, it is strongly hinted that they were displaced by the time the world was destroyed.


Personally, I tend to side with Jon's view on this, but I see where Lisa is coming from.

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Jhai
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Did Cavil say that he wiped the other Cylon models' memory of the final five? Or was there no mention of how he apparently remembers Ellen and the other five, but the others only know of them?
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Carrie
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quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
Actually... now that I think about it, it might be the biggest stereotype of them all. He's the firstborn. And he's furious at the Final Five for creating more models. Like Ellen said, "jealousy and rage". But he directs his anger at his parents, rather than his siblings.

Except Daniel. But overall, yes, you're dead on there.

I take it we're all just ignoring the fact that the Colonies left Kobol 2000 years ago (Billy and Elosha, "Kobol's Last Gleaming Part I")? Silly season 1. What do they know? [Wink]

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neo-dragon
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quote:
Originally posted by Jon Boy:
quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:
Originally posted by Jon Boy:
I don't follow this part—what population of Earth?

That'd be us. Either they could crossbreed with us and they bred true, or they wiped us out. I'm inclined to think the former.
I don't see why it's necessary to assume that there were ever regular humans on Earth. It seems like an unnecessary complication, in my opinion.
So the cylons on Earth nuked themselves? The 5 went to the 12 colonies to warn humans not to mistreat their cylons, or else war would break out like it did on Earth. So it seems that there must have been humans there for cylons to be at war with.
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ReddwarfVII
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quote:
Originally posted by neo-dragon:
So the cylons on Earth nuked themselves? The 5 went to the 12 colonies to warn humans not to mistreat their cylons, or else war would break out like it did on Earth. So it seems that there must have been humans there for cylons to be at war with. [/QB]

Humanoid versus centurion. Not human versus cylon. I am completely leaning toward the concept that the Cylon "Earth" is not our earth. I agree that either our earth does not exist in the universe of BSG or that the colonials and cylons have not reached the actual earth. I don't think that the planet was inhabited when they arrived on it. Thanks to cylon cloning tech, they could have arrived with a massive population ready to go to work creating a civilization on a new planet.

I'm pretty sure that the latter is true cuz I have read a spoiler about the very last scene of BSG. The spoiler doesn't really give any sense of how this all plays out on the timeline of our universe vs BSG, but it was enough to convince me that it is likely that the earth they found is not the earth we are living on.

Okay to sum up, the Kobol cylons left Kobol due to some conflict, found a planet, named it Earth, figured out how to make babies and forgot about resurrection all together. 1000 years later, having been warned about the impending destruction at the hands of their own centurions, five scientists re-engineer resurrection tech just in time to save themselves from death. Take a 2000 year journey to the colonies and arrive just in time to stop a war between humans and their sentient centurions. They create the colonial humanoid cylons, get betrayed, and bada-bing, bada-boom now find themselves in their current situation.

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BryanP
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It was nice to have so many questions answered but there are a lot of questions still gnawing at me, and new questions that this episode raised, but in particular, if there were humans and cylons on Kobol, which created which? Were the cylons the Lords of Kobol? Why did they leave?
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Jon Boy
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I think it's pretty clear that the humans created the Cylons on Kobol. Cavil mentioned something about Ellen's ancestors not having crawled out of a swamp.
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neo-dragon
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quote:
Originally posted by ReddwarfVII:
Humanoid versus centurion. Not human versus cylon.

Maybe, but I was thinking that it may have been the opposite of what happened to the 12 colonies. That is to say, the cylons drove the humans away (or they left Earth by choice) and then they returned unexpectedly and nuked them.

All of the answers that they provided last week were great, but I hope that they offer some clarification about Earth and the nature of the 13th tribe soon.

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ReddwarfVII
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quote:
Originally posted by neo-dragon:
quote:
Originally posted by ReddwarfVII:
Humanoid versus centurion. Not human versus cylon.

Maybe, but I was thinking that it may have been the opposite of what happened to the 12 colonies. That is to say, the cylons drove the humans away (or they left Earth by choice) and then they returned unexpectedly and nuked them.
Ooo! I like that idea actually. I'm not sure that senario would necessarily fit with the happened before, happened again theme of the show, but definately plausible.
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neo-dragon
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Actually, this Q & A with one of the writers confirms that your were right. The humanoid cylons of Earth were wiped out by their mechanical counterparts.
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ReddwarfVII
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Ah well, when you propose something like a thousand different senarios, you are bound to get one of them right out of sheer dumb luck! [Big Grin]
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BryanP
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This is a pretty great summary of what has happened so far and all the revelations that we recently had:

http://www.mediablvd.com/magazine/the_news/television_reviews/battlestar_galactica_4.15:_%22no_exit%22_200902161588.html

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ricree101
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quote:

Mo: Why was Earth destroyed?

Jane: The skinjob-style Cylons on Earth built their own metal battlebots who turned on them.

Interesting. Where are they now?
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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by BryanP:
This is a pretty great summary of what has happened so far and all the revelations that we recently had:

http://www.mediablvd.com/magazine/the_news/television_reviews/battlestar_galactica_4.15:_%22no_exit%22_200902161588.html

quote:
At one point, this meant tampering with the replication process for the Sevens; no copies could be made, as the genetic template was destroyed. (This could have meant that the original Seven survived, however.)
Do we know Doc Cottle's first name?
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Yozhik
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Does anybody else notice parallels between Cavil and Satan? Especially the Mormon interpretation of Satan? Dissing the creator's gift of free will, wanting to make everyone as miserable as himself, etc.?
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Goody Scrivener
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So let me get this straight. The "Final Five" are really the Original Five and are not Cylon skinjobs - aka Caprica, Boomer/Athena, etc? And there's yet another skinjob model?
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neo-dragon
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quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
Do we know Doc Cottle's first name?

Cottle's first initial is an "S", but what it stands for has never been revealed. I know this from browsing the BSG wiki when I should actually be getting work done.

quote:

So let me get this straight. The "Final Five" are really the Original Five and are not Cylon skinjobs - aka Caprica, Boomer/Athena, etc? And there's yet another skinjob model?

I'm not sure what you mean by them not being skinjobs. Doesn't that term describe any flesh & blood cylon, which clearly they are? They're just much older versions, having descended from the original cylons of Kobol rather than the ones made much later by the 12 colonies.
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Lyrhawn
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quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:
Originally posted by BryanP:
This is a pretty great summary of what has happened so far and all the revelations that we recently had:

http://www.mediablvd.com/magazine/the_news/television_reviews/battlestar_galactica_4.15:_%22no_exit%22_200902161588.html

quote:
At one point, this meant tampering with the replication process for the Sevens; no copies could be made, as the genetic template was destroyed. (This could have meant that the original Seven survived, however.)
Do we know Doc Cottle's first name?

His first name isn't Doc?
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BryanP
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Pretty sure Doc isn't an artist...
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Blayne Bradley
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medicin can be called an "art" in some ways.
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Corwin
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Just don't become a doctor, ok? [Smile]
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