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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » 'Dollhouse' Whedon's newest, strangest work (Page 13)

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Author Topic: 'Dollhouse' Whedon's newest, strangest work
Brinestone
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I've been assuming the mole sending info to the senator is Ballard, but it's so obvious that now that you mention it, I realize it's probably not him.

I actually thought Mellie was the weakest part of the episode. I found myself bored watching the parts about her.

I thought Eliza acted the momma-bear instinct quite well. Even if there was indication that she drinks coffee and alcohol while nursing. [Razz]

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Magson
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That was the line from the previous week when the Senator gave his speech: Adelle asked Boyd who he thought was giving out the info, Ballard walks in, and Boyd said "We were just going to talk about you . . . . "

And Ballard denied being the mole, fingering Boyd instead.

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Nighthawk
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The only reason I don't think it's Ballard is because it's never the obvious choice with Whedon.

And I miss Amy Acker! I wanted to see her this time around... running around in a nightie, but still...

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Brinestone
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Hm. I'm starting to question whether the Dollhouse has done enough to cover its tracks. I mean, there's bound to be an investigation into the professor's death, and someone was bound to have seen them on their way to his office together.

Plus, Whiskey's out in the world somewhere, angry at the Dollhouse, and they're not even worried about her or looking for her? Doesn't she have a GPS chip too, which they could easily use to retrieve her? Plus, what's she going to do out there? She's a "doctor" with no history and no paperwork to prove her credentials.

And what happens with all the clients whose engagements end in a way they didn't expect (Echo's babydaddy, for one)? Is there some sort of clause that says, "We'll kill you if you say one word about this"? Even if there were, once someone talks, it's a little too late to off them.

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Goody Scrivener
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I think we just saw the beginnings of Epitaph One.

Poor Victor. He really got the short end there. And gee, wasn't it convenient for the story that "Dr. Saunders" authorized removal of his chip when they started his reconstructive work after Alpha's second attack. That whole thing did make me wonder about Whiskey's chip status as well.

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Brinestone
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I haven't seen Epitaph One. Maybe that would help.
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Goody Scrivener
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Probably not, Brinestone. It's set about 10 years in the future.
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Raymond Arnold
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We've been seeing the beginnings of Epitaph One since Grey Hour, but yeah, this was a significant step down the road.
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Shanna
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quote:
Originally posted by Goody Scrivener:
Poor Victor. He really got the short end there. And gee, wasn't it convenient for the story that "Dr. Saunders" authorized removal of his chip when they started his reconstructive work after Alpha's second attack. That whole thing did make me wonder about Whiskey's chip status as well.

I imagine that since Dr. Saunders did the removal for Victor (that's what they said, right?) that she took out her own chip before leaving, assuming she had one.
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Brinestone
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Okay, we've watched Epitaph One, and yeah, it does make a difference. Really, did they think they could control the technology forever without it leaking out?

I really liked last night's episode. Jon Boy was wondering how it fit in with that episode where a few of the dolls are imprinted with their own personalities so they can go back and confront the demons in their pasts that are affecting their ability to be good dolls. Where did Sierra go? Did we actually get to see?

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Raymond Arnold
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I can't remember who Sierra went to confront, if it wasn't the actual guy who "kidnapped" her it was at least someone relevant.

This was a pretty amazing episode. The one thing that has me a little iffy is the question... when exactly DID Topher get a conscience? It seemed to suddenly appear the week before. When he expressed concern about the psychopath, I was like "wait, Pot, Kettle black much?"

Anyways, now we evidently have a month to wait before the next episode and the appearance of Summer Glau. And word in TV Guide says this season is already looking like it's going to be a 12 episode one.

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sarcasticmuppet
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Heavy episode, but I really liked it. Boyd has quite a past, and I really, really want to know what it is.

I also thought Priya's last line before being wiped was very reminiscent of the Worthing Saga.

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Raymond Arnold
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yeah, I thought of Worthing Saga too.
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Lyrhawn
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Everything I've ready says Dollhouse is being pushed for a month because they don't want it messing up sweeps.

Then, it'll likely be canceled.

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Raymond Arnold
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What exactly is sweeps?
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Corwin
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Man, if they cancel it *now*, then they really messed up. I mean, this season is much better than the previous one; what were they aiming for? Or maybe their ratings don't reflect the series' improvement...
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Vadon
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The viewership ratings on TV are still pretty bad. I imagine it's on the way to cancellation. Which is a shame, yesterday's episode was glory on a silver plate.
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Chris Bridges
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In the episode last year, Priya went to confront the man who put her in the Dollhouse (same guy/actor as this episode). At the time, I thought that if Adelle and Topher knew why she was in the Dollhouse and let it happen anyway, I could never empathize with them at all. Knowing now that they were fooled and even thought they were helping her, helped.

FOX has said they will air all 13 episodes. It's looking unlikely there will be more. Joss has said that the 13th episode will be able to server as either a show-ender or a lead in to more shows, if they get the chance.

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mr_porteiro_head
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quote:
Originally posted by Vadon:
yesterday's episode was glory on a silver plate.

I don't think that it's a coincidence that there wasn't much of Echo in this episode.
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mr_porteiro_head
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quote:
Originally posted by Raymond Arnold:
What exactly is sweeps?

A vast conspiracy to make TV suck.
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Jon Boy
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quote:
Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:
Originally posted by Vadon:
yesterday's episode was glory on a silver plate.

I don't think that it's a coincidence that there wasn't much of Echo in this episode.
I was just thinking the same thing. Eliza Dushku isn't even in the same league as most of the other actors on the show.
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Shigosei
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I completely agree. I really wish we could see what Dollhouse would have been like with Dichen Lachman (Sierra) in the starring role instead of Eliza Dushku.

As a side note, I saw Dollhouse before watching much Buffy. Now that I've seen Faith, it seems to me that the characters she plays mostly all have the same tough girl personality, just with different motivations and skill sets. It's too bad, given that Dollhouse was supposed to show off her acting range.

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Dogbreath
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quote:
Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
I don't think that it's a coincidence that there wasn't much of Echo in this episode.

That, and because it was directed by the sublime Jonathan Frakes. His directing style is very noticeably different, and I for one thoroughly enjoy it.

Whenever I criticize the choice of making Eliza Dushku the lead character, people inevitably defend her by saying she's a competent actress... and that's really the whole problem. She's a decent, well experienced actress usually capable of giving a good performance... and she's surrounded by a cast profoundly talented actors, most of whom could act the pants off of her. I would have absolutely no issue with her as a side character, or even as one of the main characters in an ensemble cast. But Whedon has relentlessly insisted in making the entire show revolve around her character, to the point where the opening credits don't even show any other actor. And that's destroying the show.

I'll be sad when Dollhouse ends, especially now that I've seen just how powerful an episode can be when they *don't* focus on Echo/Caroline, but ultimately this isn't a failure that can be blamed on Fox's tampering. They were willing to give the show a second season... and Whedon squandered that opportunity by focusing on a lead character that nobody wants to follow.

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Clive Candy
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quote:
Originally posted by Dogbreath]
Whenever I criticize the choice of making Eliza Dushku the lead character, people inevitably defend her by saying she's a competent actress... and that's really the whole problem. She's a decent, well experienced actress usually capable of giving a good performance... and she's surrounded by a cast profoundly talented actors, most of whom could act the pants off of her. I would have absolutely no issue with her as a side character, or even as one of the main characters in an ensemble cast. But Whedon has relentlessly insisted in making the entire show revolve around her character, to the point where the opening credits don't even show any other actor. And that's destroying the show.[/QB]

Indeed. Whedon put himself into a corner by selling the show to people on the basis of Echo/Dushku (which he had to since she was the one who had the contract with Fox that made the show possible.) This is why she can't be pushed aside as much as she deserves it.
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Bella Bee
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Of all the shows that needed to be a pure ensemble, with no 'main character', this premise was it.

There are some amazing actors, who can change their physicality and voice so completely that they seem to have transformed themselves into utterly new people.
Unfortunately, Dushku can't do that and it was unfair to expect her to - especially since her role was so complicated.
As you said, she's not a bad actress, but transformation obviously isn't her talent.

Having said that, I think it would have helped the audience to warm up to Echo if the base personality of Caroline had been at all likeable and interesting.
I have no idea why that choice was made and what purpose it served.

I still want to love this show, but it's just so flawed. It's unlikely to survive, as the ratings are even worse than the Sarah Connor Chronicles last summer, and we know what happened there.
I really do hope Joss will be back with something better soon though. I need my Joss fix.

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Dogbreath
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Oh, as long as he's alive, Joss Whedon will always have some hideously delightful brainchild or another in production. He's sort of like a virus; unless you kill it completely, it just adapts and grows more resilient in time. (and he also changes any organism he infects... everyone I know who's been exposed to his work seems to have an unhealthy level of attachment to him and his offspring)
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Jon Boy
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quote:
Originally posted by Shigosei:
It's too bad, given that Dollhouse was supposed to show off her acting range.

Oh, it did. There just wasn't much to show off.
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mr_porteiro_head
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quote:
I really wish we could see what Dollhouse would have been like with Dichen Lachman (Sierra) in the starring role instead of Eliza Dushku.
I would have loved to see what Dollhouse would have been without Fox demanding that all of the dolls be young and hot.

quote:
Now that I've seen Faith, it seems to me that the characters she plays mostly all have the same tough girl personality
Yup. In fact, watching her on this show is a lot like watching her anywhere. Oh, now it's Echo as a mother, now it's Echo as a tough negotiator, now it's Echo as a ninja assassin, and now as an evil vampire slayer.

quote:
Whenever I criticize the choice of making Eliza Dushku the lead character, people inevitably defend her by saying she's a competent actress... and that's really the whole problem. She's a decent, well experienced actress usually capable of giving a good performance... and she's surrounded by a cast profoundly talented actors, most of whom could act the pants off of her. I would have absolutely no issue with her as a side character, or even as one of the main characters in an ensemble cast. But Whedon has relentlessly insisted in making the entire show revolve around her character, to the point where the opening credits don't even show any other actor. And that's destroying the show.

Indeed.

quote:
Of all the shows that needed to be a pure ensemble, with no 'main character', this premise was it.
Indeed.

quote:
I think it would have helped the audience to warm up to Echo if the base personality of Caroline had been at all likeable and interesting.
Indeed.

quote:
It's unlikely to survive, as the ratings are even worse than the Sarah Connor Chronicles last summer, and we know what happened there.
SCC was much more expensive to produce than Dollhouse.

I'm not one to keep watching a show I don't enjoy. But I still enjoy this show, and will keep watching it.

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Dogbreath
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quote:
Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
I would have loved to see what Dollhouse would have been without Fox demanding that all of the dolls be young and hot.

One gets the impression from this show that Joss Whedon has a very narrow criterion for what constitutes an attractive woman. Literally every single female on the show has more or less the same appearance: tall, dark complexion, long straight hair, very long and oval shaped face. It's very depressing if you're like me and aren't attracted to that physique. The only women I found at all attractive on the show were Sierra and Dewitt, and Olivia Williams is over twice my age! [Frown]

It would've been nice if they had just added a bit more variety. A fair skinned freckly redhead, or a buxom blond, or (god forbid!) a black woman or two would've made it a bit more interesting... the uniformity of appearance just added to the blandness. As is, I can't look at Eliza Dushku without thinking of a St. Bernard. I know her heavy lidded, slack jawed look is supposed to be mysterious and seductive, but it just reminds me of a big slobbering dog.

And it's made all the worse by the fact that the show sports beautiful men of all shapes and colors for the ladies! IMO it's unfortunate that tv shows now are willing to take male black protagonists seriously, but you almost never see a black female in a leading role. (and it'd be especially logical for the Dollhouse... what are you going to do when your clientele want something a little darker than the standard selection?)

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Nighthawk
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Saw last week's episode yesterday on Hulu... It was brilliant! Sierra (I can't spell her real name) is truly amazing.

This is one of only three shows I watch regularly... and all three are at risk of cancellation. I'm cursed, I tell you!

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Corwin
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You should charge money to *not* watch shows that people like! [Big Grin]
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mr_porteiro_head
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quote:
Literally every single female on the show has more or less the same appearance
November doesn't fit the same mold, and she's as beautiful as anybody on the show.

[ October 25, 2009, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]

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Bella Bee
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It doesn't make any sense that there wouldn't be any older dolls. What about all the rich young men with 'Graduate' fantasies,
or women who want to be swept off their feet by a silver haired fox?
Or the older people who want someone their own age, or to pretend that they've been married for fifty years?

And while November might not be a stick figure, she's not exactly huge, is she? What about the people who want someone really big?
Or a Little Person? Or a transsexual? They've got, presumably, at least 26 Dolls - there should be some serious variation.

They can change the doll's personalities, but they can't alter their bodies to that extent.

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Nighthawk
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quote:
They've got, presumably, at least 26 Dolls - there should be some serious variation.
25, I would imagine. I would seriously doubt they'd have another one named "Alpha"... [Smile]
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Dogbreath
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quote:
Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
November doesn't fit the same mold, and she's as beautiful as anybody on the show.

What's different?

Tall: check! (5' 9" according to imdb)
White: check!
Dark complexion: check!
Long oval face: check!
Long straight hair: check!

She's a little more busty and a bit more round faced. But she's the exact same mold. If she's really the Dollhouse's idea of "variety", it makes me very sad.

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Shanna
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So I'm finally caught up.

Its unfortunate that the show will be canceled after an episode like that. Topher is developing, Boyd is mysterious, and can I go all teen girl right now and say that Sierra and Victor are like totally OTP!

I feel like I'm finally getting the character drama I've wanted from this show for the past year. I love Joss Whedon for two things: the characters and the one-liners. I can live with the fact that this show dialogue-wise sounds nothing like "Firefly" or "Buffy" but the lack of interesting characters was making me question whether was blinded by my inner Whedon fangirl.

But its like the writers heard my prayers. They put the spotlight on my favorite characters and gave the ones I hated a week off. If there had been a scene with Whiskey, I'd be overjoyed.

But no doubt Ballard and Echo will be back next week hogging the story. And I'll be back to playing solitaire while I watch.

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Brinestone
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My greatest hope with this show is that it will jumpstart very busy and lucrative careers for the actors who play Sierra and Victor. They totally deserve it.
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Geraine
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Friday's episode about Sierra was one of the better episodes of the show. Possibly my second favorite.

Epitaph One was just so well put together that it has to be my favorite. That and it has one of my favorite characters (Whiskey) as well as Felicia Day in it.

Friday's episode gave us another glimpse at the beginning of Topher absolutely losing his mind as well. He says "Now I am talking to myself like Alpha." Looks like it is the beginning of the end.

Its a real shame that a show like this doesn't get a better time slot or the viewership it deserves, but because of the way the first half of the first season played out many people have already been turned off by it. The same thing happened with Terminator SCC. Fringe was in danger of this but they came back strong for the second half of the season.

I hope Dollhouse can pull out of this slump and continue on. I am really loving the show.

One question though.. In Epitaph One the ending sequence confused me. The characters climb up a ladder towards the top of the building they are in. Why? I fail to see how that is going to help them get to safety. Is there a helicopter up there? Is it just symbolism? Are there walkways that connect the buildings?

If I missed something let me know. I loved the episode but that last part confused me.

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Nighthawk
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quote:
One question though.. In Epitaph One the ending sequence confused me. The characters climb up a ladder towards the top of the building they are in. Why? I fail to see how that is going to help them get to safety. Is there a helicopter up there? Is it just symbolism? Are there walkways that connect the buildings?
I found that kind of confusing because it was my understanding that the Dollhouse was underground in the first place: in "Epitath One" they do descend from ground level in to the Dollhouse main chamber, and in "Omega" Ballard and Alpha descend in to it as well.
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mr_porteiro_head
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quote:
Its a real shame that a show like this doesn't get a better time slot or the viewership it deserves, but because of the way the first half of the first season played out many people have already been turned off by it. The same thing happened with Terminator SCC.
I turned back in for the 2nd season of T:SCC, but didn't last long.

quote:
n Epitaph One the ending sequence confused me. The characters climb up a ladder towards the top of the building they are in. Why? I fail to see how that is going to help them get to safety. Is there a helicopter up there? Is it just symbolism?
I'm going with "symbolism".
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kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by Geraine:



Its a real shame that a show like this doesn't get a better time slot or the viewership it deserves, but because of the way the first half of the first season played out many people have already been turned off by it. The same thing happened with Terminator SCC. Fringe was in danger of this but they came back strong for the second half of the season.


And a better lead in show.
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Geraine
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I agree, all actors in Fringe > Eliza Dushku

Nobody beats Walter...Nobody.

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The White Whale
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Dollhouse won't be airing in November

Oy!

And the last episode was excellent. [Frown]

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Geraine
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It says it will return after sweeps......

Anyone want to wager it just won't return?

On a side note, NBC is thinking about bringing Chuck back early, and the only timeslot available right now is on Friday night, the same hour Dollhouse is on.

I love Dollhouse but I do love me some Chuck.

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Lisa
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It will return.
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Nighthawk
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It will return, but they're going to burn it until the end of the season: two episodes a day, back to back.
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The White Whale
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[Frown] It is cancelled [Frown]
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daventor
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I just read the news. It sucks, but I really can't blame Fox on this one (still bitter at whoever was responsible for Firefly getting canned, though). They gave it a second season, but the numbers just were not good at all. As much as I enjoyed what I saw of it, there was never a large enough audience. It's business.
That said, I hope whatever the next big project is for Joss, I hope it's not with Fox. He needs to go Cable, I think.

On the bright side, Joss can get working full-time on Dr. Horrible 2 now.

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Clive Candy
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Right now they're finishing episode 11. That means episodes 12 and 13 will be made with the knowledge that they'll be the end of the series. Whedon better make them epic.
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kmbboots
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We can blame Fox for sticking it on Friday.
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