posted
That was amazing. Though I thought Topher and his friend (they never gave the friend's name, did they?) were specifically talking about Star Trek TOS, and not classic SF in general.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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I wondered if Topher downloaded himself as his own companion . . . if no one could keep up with him unless they were him! I really liked Sierra's role as the buddy. It was great seeing him interact like a real person. So sad about the explanation, though.
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That's what I was guessing he did from the beginning. It seems like they would have told us though, so I guess not.
Posts: 1287 | Registered: Apr 2006
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Did we already have a discussion of whether the Dollhouse could lead to a sort of Dollhouse-singularity? Engineer the perfect Dollhouse engineer, who can design better Dollhouse engineers who design better Dollhouses which can be used to design better Dollhouse engineers which eventually would probably lead to a super-Alpha (Omega, hee hee) that makes humanity obsolete.
I'm not quite sure what the significance of that is, but the possibility intrigues me.
Posts: 4136 | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:I wondered if Topher downloaded himself as his own companion . . .
Topher is genuinely afraid of sitting in the chair himself. I can't imagine him going through the procedure, especially since he knows he's pretty much the only person that can run the equipment reliably in the first place.
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There was a variant idea I had that was more Von Neumann-sque, if a guy with Dollhouse technology decided to engineer one caste of people to build better and better dollhouses and another caste of people to go out and kidnap people and turn them into dolls, until eventually you'd dollhouse-ized the entire human race. Authorities would have a hard time catching you, because most of your targets would not appear to have disappeared - they'd spend most of their life acting normal, with their kidnapping-sleeper-personalities activated only when it was safe.
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Actually, I think that idea might also have come from someone else. I vaguely remember talking about this before, but can't remember where and whose idea was which.
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I'll admit -- I like Sierra and Victor a whole heckuva lot more than I like Echo. Loved Sierra as "the buddy." Victor wasn't given a lot to work with this episode, but I still just like it when he's on screen.
Echo.... I liked the storyline of her trying to solve her own murder. And sometimes I was even convinced that she was playing the older lady -- notably in the botched seduction of hew widowed husband, but for the most part, I felt like I was watching "the actress," not the character.
Can we fire her and make Sierra the lead instead? She's WAY more convincing in every imprint personality to me.
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quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold: Actually, I think that idea might also have come from someone else. I vaguely remember talking about this before, but can't remember where and whose idea was which.
quote:I wondered if Topher downloaded himself as his own companion . . .
Topher is genuinely afraid of sitting in the chair himself. I can't imagine him going through the procedure, especially since he knows he's pretty much the only person that can run the equipment reliably in the first place.
Aside from that, how weird would it be to have to wipe yourself? And wouldn't you have to construct a "you" who wasn't aware that that was what was going to happen?
Topher's talked up his ability to cobble together personalities and skills often enough for me to believe him capable of creating his own "best friend".
I will say that this is possibly the first episode I felt some sympathy for the guy, so that's deserves some kudos.
(who doesn't like chocolate-covered granola? )
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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Topher can't be the only one who can run the chair reliably. We know there are other Dollhouses. Especially now with the son admitting to being a client of the Manhattan house.
I didn't care for the Echo storyline. Too self-serving (for Adele and Margaret) in a way that her other assignments didn't touch. The Topher/Sierra imprint side story was nice. And I always love seeing Victor.
And can the Dollhouse really have that much influence that a fingerprint search can completely wipe ALL of the FBI records on that person? People? Sheesh, how many identities did Mellie/November/Annabelle have? Wow. I wonder what happens when the dolls finish out their contract and return to the real world... or do they ever get that far?
Posts: 4515 | Registered: Jul 2004
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Another question is, why were all those identities in the FBI database in the first place?!? I understand her real identity being there. But the others? It's like the dollhouse did sloppy work just so that it could delete the files afterwards. Woohoo, we can delete FBI files!
Or, maybe it was Dominic that put all the info there? But he said his goal was not to destroy the dollhouse. Why then put it at risk like that?
Posts: 4519 | Registered: Sep 2003
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I'm fascinated by the concept of hearing what other people (Who really know you) think about you and what they suspect your motives to be etc. I know it isn't an original concept, but I haven't seen it in a while and I like how JW realized the potential for that story existed within his world. Kind of like a reverse Speaker for the Dead. Instead of telling the truth from their perspective, you tell THEM the truth from the from the view of everyone else.
At first, I suspected that Topher's friend was the mind of an actual person that maybe knew about the Dollhouse (much like Echo's Character), but the way it actually turned out was a better story.
I think Topher is actually my favorite character, and always has been. I can empathize with him best of any of the characters. Of course, I think he was characterized more than any of the others too. No other character has really related how they think of themselves- which I think is the most important piece of information that you NEED to empathize with someone. Getting to know someone by their actions is one thing, but knowing their motives and how they see themselves... it's exactly as OSC put it in Ender's Game "You can't truly know somebody... and not love them the way they love themselves."
More writers need to learn this.
I suppose it's only natural that I liked this episode. I saw in it some of the styles of a Writer that I already know I like.
Posts: 636 | Registered: Apr 2002
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Corwin: Maybe she was a career conartist with multiple identities that had gotten into trouble before she went into the dollhouse, and part of the deal with becoming a doll was that her record would be wiped clean?
Posts: 364 | Registered: Dec 2005
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It looked to me like those were identities she'd had as a Doll where she'd gotten picked up by the police. Given what some of the fantasies might have been among their clients, that wouldn't surprise me all that much. What I don't get is why they'd let it get into the system, and only delete it when someone was looking.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Not only that, remove it from the screen while someone is looking at it.
The ability to delete a thread on Hatrack is fairly trivial given the right permissions. The ability to delete a thread on Hatrack and simultaneously force all computers currently viewing that thread to close and retain no records of that thread is a slightly more impressive ability.
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: It looked to me like those were identities she'd had as a Doll where she'd gotten picked up by the police. Given what some of the fantasies might have been among their clients, that wouldn't surprise me all that much. What I don't get is why they'd let it get into the system, and only delete it when someone was looking.
You'd think that they would have found the fingerprint matches way before that. I mean, the 2nd time they put the fingerprints in it would have been enough.
And, yes, some of those pictures were clearly mug shots.
What I think is that those shots were from before she was an active, and she elected to become an active to leave that past behind.
Posts: 3486 | Registered: Sep 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Goody Scrivener: And I always love seeing Victor.
Did anyone else notice how Victor sounded just like Mal?
And during an outdoors scene with him and the horses, a guy dressed just like Mal, in tan pants and a burgundy shirt, walked in front of the camera leading a horse twice?
Posts: 575 | Registered: Feb 2007
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Can I just be the first to say, Holy sh*t. I really do not know what is going to happen next week.
I have ten bazillion questions, chief amongst them (I think!) being, Why is Alpha Topher? It is very, very baffling. Also, who was Topher first? Was the original architect, Stephen Whatshisface, the original Topher? Are Nice Alpha and Topher both copies of Stephen Whatsit, or is Nice Alpha a composite of Stephen Whatsit and Topher (among other things)?
In other news, Mean Alpha is really frightening.
Edit to add: Victor-as-Lawrence said "Whiskey" when Dr. Saunders gave him the shot. Dr. Saunders quickly said, "He wants a drink." We've never met a Doll called Whiskey but it would be a Doll's name. Is he referencing a Doll that we've never met before? Addressing somebody in the room with him at the time?
posted
I'm not sure what I thought of this episode. I really liked everything up to and including the Alpha reveal, but after that I thought Alpha and Echo both acted too... cartoony? Their make out scene looked fake to me and the Alpha toying with the doctor scene felt... off somehow. Maybe I was comparing it too much to Sylar.
Posts: 4136 | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Fyfe: Edit to add: Victor-as-Lawrence said "Whiskey" when Dr. Saunders gave him the shot. Dr. Saunders quickly said, "He wants a drink." We've never met a Doll called Whiskey but it would be a Doll's name. Is he referencing a Doll that we've never met before? Addressing somebody in the room with him at the time?
I had my doubts, but now I'm convinced that the doctor's a doll. After the whole discussion with Alpha about whether she wanted to be a doctor all along I thought back... In the wacky episode where all the non-dolls went loopy, do we ever get to see the doctor suffer ill effects?
Posts: 3486 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Reading this thread has me remarking that it is patently obvious at this point that Dollhouse's extremely crappy opening, both in terms of quality and ratings, are patently the fault of interference from Fox, and when that interference was removed, there existed in its wake a quality show with ample potential.
If Fox cans it (which seems very likely!) then it will be the final cap on a comedy of errors. They pay into something just to destroy it. "You're doing it wrong" doesn't even begin to cover it.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote: I have ten bazillion questions, chief amongst them (I think!) being, Why is Alpha Topher? It is very, very baffling. Also, who was Topher first? Was the original architect, Stephen Whatshisface, the original Topher? Are Nice Alpha and Topher both copies of Stephen Whatsit, or is Nice Alpha a composite of Stephen Whatsit and Topher (among other things)?
Okay, I seem to have missed something here. Topher is Alpha? Good Alpha? When and how was this revealed? I really missed it.
Posts: 315 | Registered: Dec 2005
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It doesn't get revealed, I just noticed. Watch Alpha when Ballard goes to visit him - his mannerisms and ways of speaking are exactly like Topher's. It makes me slightly wonder whether Topher may be a Doll. (Whiskey?)
Posts: 910 | Registered: May 2000
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Seriously, once you notice, it's unmistakable. Topher's always gesturing with one hand with the thumb and forefinger touching, and Alpha does that; Topher does that thing where he pauses, draws out a few words, and then rushes through the next bunch, and Alpha does that. I feel very impressed with Alan Tudyk's leet acting skillz.
Posts: 910 | Registered: May 2000
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Alright, I've watched it again and I think you're right. Does Alpha then have a bunch of imprints that he can utilize? If he does, and he has Topher's imprint (that means that Topher is an active)...wow. Who's not an active?
Fyfe, you're right. Once you notice, it is unmistakable.
Posts: 1711 | Registered: Jun 2004
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I've already mentally prepared myself for everyone and her sister turning out to be a doll. The Alpha/Topher thing is interesting, although there's so many different ways it could play out that I can't begin to speculate.
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I've found the series moderately interesting all season, but this week's episode was the first time I thought, "I hope they don't cancel this..."
Posts: 324 | Registered: Mar 2008
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The White Whale and Raymond Arnold: only a few episodes ago we saw who was and who wasn't an active by how they reacted to a chemical. If Topher turns out to be an active they're doing it wrong.
So no, Topher may not be an active, but that doesn't mean that his brain couldn't have been scanned. Scanning doesn't kill you or instantly erase your memory, as can be seen from the old lady that got killed in the previous episode.
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quote:The White Whale and Raymond Arnold: only a few episodes ago we saw who was and who wasn't an active by how they reacted to a chemical. If Topher turns out to be an active they're doing it wrong.
Now I'm really going to have to re-watch that to see if the doctor has any reaction.
Posts: 3486 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Yeah, and it would explain Alpha's talent with the Dollhouse's computers far better than "I made this place, even if I didn't know where it was" , which was the line they tried to use.
And since Topher could have made NEW passwords since the scan, it would cover why Alpha couldn't use Topher's computer to do it. Although why in the world they won't change all of it anyway I'll never know. Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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It's possible that every Dollhouse has it's own Topher. A full time active that never gets imprinted with anything else. All with the exact same imprint.
Posts: 7085 | Registered: Apr 2001
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It's also possible that Topher merely imprinted his own personality into Alpha during one of the testing stages. Topher obviously DOES think so highly of himself that I wouldn't put it past him to assume his level of brilliance was clearly something worth experimenting with.
Posts: 4136 | Registered: Aug 2008
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I officially agree that Amy Acker is a Doll. I thought about it some more - the Alpha argument is compelling, and now that I'm thinking about it, Victor is looking straight at her when he says "Whiskey". First he says "Topher!" and then "Adelle, don't do this," and then, as Amy Acker is giving him a shot, "Whiskey!"
Posts: 910 | Registered: May 2000
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Also, Alpha slashes the faces of dolls, for whatever reason, and he slashed Amy Acker's face as well. It may be that he's marking dolls so they can be identified.
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Also, what exactly has Amy Acker DONE that's got everyone so ga-ga over her? I haven't seen her earlier work, so all I have to go off is a pretty, sad looking face.
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She was Fred in Angel - she was a total dear. I've seen her briefly in a few other things, but mainly I love her because she was such a dear as Fred.
Posts: 910 | Registered: May 2000
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Theory: Echo tells the little girl to think of herself as the prince. She will swoop in and rescue herself. What if part of Alpha's imprint is Caroline? Which is why Echo is the only doll who was left alive after Alpha's original killing spree. She didn't even get her face slashed.
Course, I'm not as familiar with Caroline's mannerisms as I am with Topher's. So I don't actually have anything else going for this theory other than it is interesting and it fits with the prince coming to rescue her thing they had going.
Or maybe she somehow programmed Alpha.
Posts: 364 | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold: Also, what exactly has Amy Acker DONE that's got everyone so ga-ga over her? I haven't seen her earlier work, so all I have to go off is a pretty, sad looking face.
She charmed the pants off of everyone in Angel. Whedon, at one point, said that he realized that "Fred" (her character) was the only thing that every other character in (and viewer of) the show loved (... ).
Posts: 1711 | Registered: Jun 2004
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I'm just happy to be vindicated in my belief that Alan Tudyk is Alpha. I must have read it somewhere early on (within two episodes), but the spoiler got erased. It's been a confusing couple of months with the attempted misdirection about his character.
Posts: 2849 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Glenn Arnold: Also, Alpha slashes the faces of dolls, for whatever reason, and he slashed Amy Acker's face as well. It may be that he's marking dolls so they can be identified.
That's not actually true. He may slash mostly dolls, but then there's the problem of the older man who actually did design the system. His face was slashed as well, and I don't see any evidence that he's a doll.
I never would have caught Alpha acting like Topher if it hadn't been mentioned here, though.
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