FacebookTwitter
Hatrack River Forum Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » Lost Season 6 (Page 15)

  This topic comprises 18 pages: 1  2  3  ...  12  13  14  15  16  17  18   
Author Topic: Lost Season 6
Geraine
Member
Member # 9913

 - posted      Profile for Geraine   Email Geraine         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Question: Why didn't Locke just kill Desmond? If he wanted him dead, he could have just killed him on his own. Why get Sayid involved?

Is Desmond a secret candidate?

Posts: 1937 | Registered: Nov 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Strider
Member
Member # 1807

 - posted      Profile for Strider   Email Strider         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
that's a good question Geraine. We know it's only candidates that he has to follow certain rules about not killing. Why Desmond?
Posts: 8741 | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Tresopax
Member
Member # 1063

 - posted      Profile for Tresopax           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
We don't know it's only candidates he can't kill... He hasn't killed Kate after all. Or Ben, or Richard, or many of the Losties from Seasons 1-5 that he could have.
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Tresopax
Member
Member # 1063

 - posted      Profile for Tresopax           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
By the way, do you remember the seemingly pointless episode where Paulo and Nikki are killed by the medusa spider? In that episode the spider bites both of them and paralyzes them... but they aren't killed until the other Losties bury them alive. What was strange at the time of that episode was that we heard the Smoke Monster noises when the spiders bit them, suggesting that somehow the monster was behind the spider attacks.

Looking back now at that episode, I wonder if that was the first time the Smoke Monster tricked the Losties into killing two of their own. I always thought that episode was kind of a waste, but maybe it was intended to foreshadow the trickery of MiB.

[ May 11, 2010, 09:58 AM: Message edited by: Tresopax ]

Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Uprooted
Member
Member # 8353

 - posted      Profile for Uprooted   Email Uprooted         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Interesting thought, Tresopax!
Posts: 3149 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Rabbit
Member
Member # 671

 - posted      Profile for The Rabbit   Email The Rabbit         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Spoiler:

Tonights episode is entitle "What they died for". You don't suppose "They" could mean Niki and Paulo. After all, they had the most pointless deaths in the show.

I think its much more likely that it refers to Sun and Jin, or all the main characters (Charlie, Libby, Boone, Shannon, Juliette . . . .) who've died. But maybe Niki and Paulo will show up too and we'll get an answer to why the writers stuck in that pointless episode.

Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Strider
Member
Member # 1807

 - posted      Profile for Strider   Email Strider         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Rabbit, tonight's episode is called "Across the Sea". "What they died for" is next week's episode!

quote:
Originally posted by Tresopax:
We don't know it's only candidates he can't kill... He hasn't killed Kate after all. Or Ben, or Richard, or many of the Losties from Seasons 1-5 that he could have.

True, but the difference is that we don't have any indicators he wanted those other people dead, where as here, we know he wants Desmond dead, but left the work to someone else.
Posts: 8741 | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Tresopax
Member
Member # 1063

 - posted      Profile for Tresopax           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm thinking "What They Died For" might refer to everyone who died so far this series... Maybe it will reveal what Jacob's goal has been? Or maybe what the point of AltTime is?
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Geraine
Member
Member # 9913

 - posted      Profile for Geraine   Email Geraine         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Tresopax:
We don't know it's only candidates he can't kill... He hasn't killed Kate after all. Or Ben, or Richard, or many of the Losties from Seasons 1-5 that he could have.

Right, but he HAS killed people that were not candidates. He killed Mr. Ecko (Such a waste, he was actually my favorite character after Hugo), the pilot, and many many others throughout the years.

I still think he is keeping Kate around to use as leverage. If he cannot kill Jack and Sawyer, why not hold Kate hostage and tell them to fight to the death to save her?

Afterall, she is the only non-candidate left. Well..... Besides Desmond. (I still think there is something more to him)

Though...MIB cannot kill Richard because it is against the rules as well... So maybe there is another type of person that he cannot kill. Richard is not a candidate but was granted immortality by Jacob. Perhaps those that have been "blessed" by Jacob cannot be killed by MIB?

Posts: 1937 | Registered: Nov 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Rabbit
Member
Member # 671

 - posted      Profile for The Rabbit   Email The Rabbit         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Geraine:
quote:
Originally posted by Tresopax:
We don't know it's only candidates he can't kill... He hasn't killed Kate after all. Or Ben, or Richard, or many of the Losties from Seasons 1-5 that he could have.

Right, but he HAS killed people that were not candidates. He killed Mr. Ecko (Such a waste, he was actually my favorite character after Hugo), the pilot, and many many others throughout the years.

I still think he is keeping Kate around to use as leverage. If he cannot kill Jack and Sawyer, why not hold Kate hostage and tell them to fight to the death to save her?

Afterall, she is the only non-candidate left. Well..... Besides Desmond. (I still think there is something more to him)

Though...MIB cannot kill Richard because it is against the rules as well... So maybe there is another type of person that he cannot kill. Richard is not a candidate but was granted immortality by Jacob. Perhaps those that have been "blessed" by Jacob cannot be killed by MIB?

There is unquestionably something more to Desmond. No speculation necessary. We've been told "the rules don't apply to him" (Daniel), he is "the only person whose survived high level EM radiation (Widmore)", and "You're going to need him" (Sayid). Plus we've know that he has consciousness has been able to time jump, Penny is his constant, and that he has a clearer understanding of the two time lines than anyone else.

Given that we know there are rule which keep Esau from killing some people and that Esau didn't kill Desmond but instead ordered Sayid to do it, I think its reasonable to presume the rules won't allow Esau to kill Desmond.

Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Geraine
Member
Member # 9913

 - posted      Profile for Geraine   Email Geraine         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The more I think about it I don't know if I should even be calling them rules. Rules can be broken, often with a consequence.

I don't think MIB even has the ability to kill a candidate. If he does but is following a rule, the consequence must be so severe that he is scared of doing it.

Posts: 1937 | Registered: Nov 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lisa
Member
Member # 8384

 - posted      Profile for Lisa   Email Lisa         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
When we talk about rules, it makes me think of the Ben Linus vs Charles Widmore fight. Ben thought Keamy couldn't kill Alex because it was against the rules. He told Widmore he'd broken the rules.

And there are other rules, or requirements. Like all of them needing to go back to the island, or none of them, remember? And it was Daniel's mother who seemed to know all those rules. How did she know them?

Jacob wouldn't talk to people directly: only through Richard. At least once they got to the island. But Richard, as we've seen, really didn't know much. So how did Daniel's parents and Ben find out all the information they've had?

Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Geraine
Member
Member # 9913

 - posted      Profile for Geraine   Email Geraine         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
If you think back to Season four, Ben had that gong in his house that called the smoke monster. Who is to say they weren't sometimes guided or taught by the MIB what the rules were?
Posts: 1937 | Registered: Nov 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
LargeTuna
Member
Member # 10512

 - posted      Profile for LargeTuna   Email LargeTuna         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Whoa ...
Posts: 856 | Registered: Jun 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Xann.
Member
Member # 11482

 - posted      Profile for Xann.   Email Xann.         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by LargeTuna:
Whoa ...

Kinda what I was thinking, I haven't officially decided what happened there. What I do know is that I was impressed with how much the child and baby actors looked like Jacob and his brother.
Posts: 549 | Registered: Feb 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Leonide
Member
Member # 4157

 - posted      Profile for Leonide   Email Leonide         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I thought tonight was a waste of an episode. I wouldn't have minded it if it had come earlier in the season, but with it being so close to the end now (and after last week) I can't believe they wasted so much time with the Jacob/MIB beginnings. That could have easily been a jump-cut flashback episode, with things actually Progressing on the Island while we found out (more quickly!!) that they were brothers destined to guard a light in a cave that turns dead people into Smoke Monsters.

All I learned from this episode is that Jacob is a doofus and the MIB is like a parody of early Sawyer: far angrier and more vengeful than his circumstances warrant.

Posts: 3516 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
daventor
Member
Member # 11981

 - posted      Profile for daventor           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yeah, jury's out for me on this episode: it all depends on the follow-up. I still don't have any real hard feelings against Jacob (or MIB, for that matter; it did manage to make him much more sympathetic), but dang it I want a reason for it all! I know the writers like to keep things mysterious and that not all questions will be answered by the end of the season, but in watching this show I've seen a lot of suffering, a lot of death, and lots of supposedly innocent/good/just-trying-their-best-with-the-info-they-got people constantly manipulating, hurting, or even killing each other (this episode being a prime example). I want there to actually be a satisfying reason for all this suffering than just a crazy homicidal lady who did a really crappy parenting job and wouldn't explain anything to her two adopted children outside really vague/cliche mystic mumbo jumbo.

I'm still hoping the end of this series will satisfy, but this episode didn't exactly reassure me at all.

That said, I liked all the performances (even the kids) fine.

Posts: 132 | Registered: Feb 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
daventor
Member
Member # 11981

 - posted      Profile for daventor           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I was looking at comments on another site and actually am going to quote of the guys there because I think he summed up my feelings better than I actually can:

"While I appreciate the big reveal of Adam & Eve's origin, I think the showrunners are really streching the patience of most of the audience. I've been hanging on and hoping that everything would pan out in the end, but with only 3 1/2 hours left for this series, I'm dreading the worst. This entire season seems to be a rushed hodge podge of non-answers. Week after week, I wonder if this is the story that the creators really wanted to tell or if they didn't really have any idea what they were doing. This season has felt like a dramatic departure, both in tone and focus, from what was built over the past 5 seasons. I can't help but wonder what the subject matter of this season really has to do with most of the mysteries that were created over the course of the series. I also feel like the interjection of Jacob/MIB's mother as the equivalent of an anti-deus ex machina does nothing for closure to the purpose and value of this island. I've always been a huge "Lost" apologist, but now I'm not sure I can buy what is being sold to me. Maybe you can rationalize how a bright light that lies inside us all is also the heart of the island, turns people into giant smoke monsters, and with the combined power of water, can be attached to a giant donkey wheel to transport people off the island. I'm starting to think that the island is the missing element to form Captain Planet."

On the bright side, the next episode is entitled "What they died for." So if they actually deliver on that title and explain what the point of all this madness has been, I think I'll be good. If not...

Posts: 132 | Registered: Feb 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Leonide
Member
Member # 4157

 - posted      Profile for Leonide   Email Leonide         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by daventor:
"...Maybe you can rationalize how a bright light that lies inside us all is also the heart of the island, turns people into giant smoke monsters, and with the combined power of water, can be attached to a giant donkey wheel to transport people off the island. I'm starting to think that the island is the missing element to form Captain Planet."

Awesome.
Posts: 3516 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Geraine
Member
Member # 9913

 - posted      Profile for Geraine   Email Geraine         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
By your powers combined!

I liked this episode. I did enjoy the twist at the end.

What language was Jacob's mother speaking at the beginning? Was it Hebrew? It makes it sound like they were on the island for thousands of years.

So the real MIB is dead. I don't think Jacob killed him at all. When he went into the light, he released the smoke monster, who threw him away and took his form. The real MIB was judged by the smoke monster and was killed. The BSM absorbed some memories, just as it did when it took Locke's form.

I remember in Season 1 when Locke said he "Looked into the eye of the island, and it was beautiful." Later when he was speaking to Mr. Eko he said that he had seen a "light". So who knows what the bsm really is.

Posts: 1937 | Registered: Nov 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
LargeTuna
Member
Member # 10512

 - posted      Profile for LargeTuna   Email LargeTuna         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I liked this episode. I hated the one before it.

I don't care in the slightest if things do or do not progress on the island. It's all about the motivations and emotonal stories for me. (I'm also very biased abou which characters I like watching and don't like watching)

I'm of the opinion that the black smoke monster has a whole lot of Jacob's brother influencing and driving it. He may be the sole reason it even wants to leave the island.

Posts: 856 | Registered: Jun 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Strider
Member
Member # 1807

 - posted      Profile for Strider   Email Strider         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
And since he talked to Claire the other episode about his crazy mother and their messed up relationship and all the other stuff we've gotten from him about his relatively "normal" origins, I think it's safe to assume that Esau's "soul" is indeed merged with the essence of the smoke monster.
Posts: 8741 | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Tresopax
Member
Member # 1063

 - posted      Profile for Tresopax           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I took the cave to be Jacob's version of the "loophole" - he didn't kill MIB (MIB lives on as the Smoke Monster, even if his body is gone) so he didn't break the rule about no killing, yet he gave MIB what their "mother" called a fate worse than death.

I have to wonder how much of what happened was intended by their "mother" the whole time. She did say thank you at the end, after all, similar to how Jacob died. Did she intend for MIB to kill her? Did she intend for him to be Jacob's rival? She must've known Jacob would not be happy, but also knew he couldn't ever kill him.

...

I'm guessing this cave/light is what Widmore's electromagnetic research team is looking for, and what Desmond's job is going to involve.

...

Also, does this all now mean that when the Losties nuked the island, they blew up the light that is within all living things?

Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Strider
Member
Member # 1807

 - posted      Profile for Strider   Email Strider         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Tres, I thought the same thing about the cave/light and Desmond.

I also thought about what would happen if the person who is in the role of the protector of the Island went into that hole in the cave? Since the protector and the smoke monster very much seem to be opposing sides, yin and yang, etc...what would happen if they were joined into one?

So yeah, basically, I thought that by the end of the season we'd either see Desmond go in there, or whoever the final candidate is go in there.

Posts: 8741 | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Leonide
Member
Member # 4157

 - posted      Profile for Leonide   Email Leonide         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Didn't seem like guarding the "light" was all that cool a position, in the end. Especially in light of the mother's "Thank you." Such an honor to guard it, and it's mystically and mysteriously imperative, but she welcomes release from it?

What exactly is her job? Crazy Mama never seemed to actually DO any guarding, unless you count knocking out MIB and re-filling the hole. She's trapped on this island, fated to guard a cave until she finds (raises) a successor, but what is she Doing, exactly? Just waiting until someone tries to use the energy, and then thwarting them? Is that it? One person on an island, a female with nothing but her bare hands to guard "the light that's in everyone"? She lets her adopted son live with the "bad" people for thirty years, never realizing that their digging wells to the energy source? Only at the last minute does she stop them? Why?
And what is the deal with Jacob, then? He obviously allowed many, many "bad" people to come to the Island, to dig or re-dig wells, set up the frozen donkey wheel, to USE IT (at least twice that we know of) -- and the energy wasn't "snuffed out" or released onto the world as promised. I just don't buy this mythology.

Posts: 3516 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lisa
Member
Member # 8384

 - posted      Profile for Lisa   Email Lisa         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Geraine:
What language was Jacob's mother speaking at the beginning? Was it Hebrew? It makes it sound like they were on the island for thousands of years.

It was Latin. Which makes sense, considering the centurian looking uniforms the men had on.

quote:
Originally posted by Geraine:
So the real MIB is dead. I don't think Jacob killed him at all. When he went into the light, he released the smoke monster, who threw him away and took his form. The real MIB was judged by the smoke monster and was killed. The BSM absorbed some memories, just as it did when it took Locke's form.

I don't know. Smokie said that he was once human, and that he had a crazy mother. So he at least thinks he's Esau.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lisa
Member
Member # 8384

 - posted      Profile for Lisa   Email Lisa         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The one thing I can definitely say after seeing last night's ep is that Jacob is a schmuck, and Esau seems completely reasonable to me. Esau acted like a human being should act. Inquisitive, where Jacob is merely accepting. Adventurous, where Jacob is a wuss. Demanding of truth and principles, where Jacob goes along with whatever Mama says. Someone who sees the value in striving and innovation and coming up with new ideas. While Jacob is all about the status quo.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lisa
Member
Member # 8384

 - posted      Profile for Lisa   Email Lisa         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Okay... those of you with poor impulse control are just going to have to take responsibility for yourselves. No complaints.

The Doc Arzt site has two Sneak Peaks for the next episode, which ABC released. For those of you who haven't seen Sneak Peaks before, they're simply about a minute of footage from an upcoming episode, and they're meant to whet your appetite. There've been eps where they released 3 or 4 Sneak Peaks. This time, there are two (so far).

Some would call these spoilers. But they aren't, really. They don't reveal major plot points, but they do contain show content. So spoiler alert, and like I said, no complaints if you don't have the intestinal fortitude to refrain.

Linky

Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Strider
Member
Member # 1807

 - posted      Profile for Strider   Email Strider         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Something else I've been thinking about is the whole parent issues theme that has been prevalent throughout this show.

Originally it was mostly "daddy issues", with Claire, Kate, Jack, Sawyer, Locke, Jin, Sun, Hurley, etc...all having serious relationship issues with their dads. Then some mommy issues started sneaking it, particularly with Eloise and Faraday. This last episode featured what I'll call the Prime parent issue. Both Jacob and Esau had issues with their adoptive mom.

Esau had issues with her lying and control. And Jacob had issues with her greater love for Esau.

What I find interesting is that as adults, it's Esau who was the one who embraced his mother's philosophy, "they come, they fight, they destroy, the corrupt, it always ends the same". And it is Jacob who has turned away from his mother's philosophy. Jacob is not only a big proponent of man's ability to redeem himself, but of the idea that we have the free will to choose (and make the right choice). Why i find this interesting is that Jacob was to a certain degree forced into his role, his mother laid it out to him in terms that "he didn't have a choice in the matter".

So here, I think we're finding an explanation for how the Candidates are chosen. My initial speculations were that Jacob was provided a list of Candidates by his predecessor, obviously not true. What if in fact, Jacob chose his candidates BECAUSE of their parent issues. Because he wanted to prove that in the end we ARE free to make choices, regardless of the messed up influences our parents had on us.

What do you think? It helps explain why so many people on the Island had parent issues...because those are the types of people Jacob drew towards the Island.

[ May 12, 2010, 05:03 PM: Message edited by: Strider ]

Posts: 8741 | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Uprooted
Member
Member # 8353

 - posted      Profile for Uprooted   Email Uprooted         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Strider, I suspect that is exactly the type of question LOST followers will be continuing to debate forever, because I don't think they're going to tell us. But thinking of it that way makes the episode potentially more interesting for me, because like Lisa I really did lose interest in Jacob. He turned into Tommy Smothers: "Mom always liked you best."

I didn't like the insertion of the footage of Jack and Kate and Locke. It seemed so awkward and contrived, not to mention unnecessary. If they think we can't put two and two together, why not at least put it in at the beginning as a "previously on LOST" clip? But who Adam and Eve were has never been one of the questions I cared about anyway, so it was a serious anticlimax as an ending as far as I was concerned.

And why can't Locke/Esau/Smokie have a name? Seriously, did Mother and Jacob just call him Son or Brother his whole life because Claudia didn't know she was having twins? What do the writers gain by not naming the character, or, more probably, withholding his name from the viewers?

Nope, not a big fan of this episode overall. Raised more questions in my mind than answers -- like why could Boy in Black see his dead mother and not Jacob, and does that matter?

Posts: 3149 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Geraine
Member
Member # 9913

 - posted      Profile for Geraine   Email Geraine         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Strider:


I also thought about what would happen if the person who is in the role of the protector of the Island went into that hole in the cave? Since the protector and the smoke monster very much seem to be opposing sides, yin and yang, etc...what would happen if they were joined into one?


What would happen?

Probably something like this:

http://www.wearysloth.com/Gallery/ActorsO/13026-4397.gif

That's right. I went there. May Jim Henson rest in peace.

Posts: 1937 | Registered: Nov 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
theCrowsWife
Member
Member # 8302

 - posted      Profile for theCrowsWife   Email theCrowsWife         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
The one thing I can definitely say after seeing last night's ep is that Jacob is a schmuck, and Esau seems completely reasonable to me. Esau acted like a human being should act. Inquisitive, where Jacob is merely accepting. Adventurous, where Jacob is a wuss. Demanding of truth and principles, where Jacob goes along with whatever Mama says. Someone who sees the value in striving and innovation and coming up with new ideas. While Jacob is all about the status quo.

The thought has been in the back of my mind for quite a few episodes now that at the end of the series Jacob might be shown as the one to be opposed, after all. It's not something I necessarily think will happen, but if it does I will be completely unsurprised. This episode made the possibility a little stronger, I think.

--Mel

Posts: 1269 | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Uprooted
Member
Member # 8353

 - posted      Profile for Uprooted   Email Uprooted         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Interview w/ the writers

Best line (after interviewer pummels them w/ questions from readers):

DL: Are there any readers who actually like the show?

Posts: 3149 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lisa
Member
Member # 8384

 - posted      Profile for Lisa   Email Lisa         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hee. Jacob and Esau Lost Game on Jimmy Kimmel.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Tresopax
Member
Member # 1063

 - posted      Profile for Tresopax           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
The one thing I can definitely say after seeing last night's ep is that Jacob is a schmuck, and Esau seems completely reasonable to me. Esau acted like a human being should act. Inquisitive, where Jacob is merely accepting. Adventurous, where Jacob is a wuss. Demanding of truth and principles, where Jacob goes along with whatever Mama says. Someone who sees the value in striving and innovation and coming up with new ideas. While Jacob is all about the status quo.
I think it's important to point out that this was thousands of years in the past though - Jacob seems to have gone through some character development in the meanwhile. Like Strider pointed out, he has essentially rejected his mother's beliefs about other human beings as being inherently corrupt. And I think that scene with Richard was a turning point in which he changed from accepting the status quo to working towards progress. They revealed his story backwards, but I think we can now see how he was a dynamic character, sort or mirroring the progress he's trying to make with the Losties.

I have to think he's going to end up being the "right" side in the end - he does represent faith that this whole island was worth protecting, and if it ends up being not worth protecting, the writers would be essentially admitting the whole show was pointless! Jacob represents the viewpoint of all those fans who say watching all these years will be worth it, because it will all come together in the end.

[ May 13, 2010, 10:15 AM: Message edited by: Tresopax ]

Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Xaposert
Member
Member # 1612

 - posted      Profile for Xaposert           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
I have to think he's going to end up being the "right" side in the end - he does represent faith that this whole island was worth protecting, and if it end's up being not worth protecting, the writers would be essentially admitting the whole show was pointless!
I disagree... This show is about the characters, not the island. Maybe MiB was right all along when he said the island really isn't worth protecting, and maybe "Mother" was wrong. And maybe that's the whole point of the alternate reality - showing that the island is destroyed, yet the world goes on, and the characters still resolve their problems without it. Maybe that's the timeline where MiB has won.

And because of the bleeding over between the timelines, the writers avoid the idea that Seasons 1-5 were a waste because what happened in that timeline ends up changing the new timeline.

So, yeah... I liked this episode! [Wink]

Posts: 2432 | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
LargeTuna
Member
Member # 10512

 - posted      Profile for LargeTuna   Email LargeTuna         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I have a feeing MiB and "Mother" are both wrong.

Jacob and Jack are close to right, because I don't see either one of them of the exact same opinion or taking even similar actions to "mother" They just appear to be on the same side right now, when in reality they will turn out very different, because there are more than two sides. The way mother thnks and manipulates reminds me more of MiB than Jacob.

But that's what I'm hoping for anyway.

Posts: 856 | Registered: Jun 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Armoth
Member
Member # 4752

 - posted      Profile for Armoth   Email Armoth         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
1) I dunno about the whole time thing. Sure there are ships and everything, and the Roman thing, but what about all the Egyptian influences? The temples, the statue, etc.

Two gods warring seemed more appropriate than two dudes that were raised in purity. Which makes me think that CJ (yea, I'm calling her CJ) might be some sort of goddess figure.

Let's keep in mind that Esau is "special", he knows things. He knew to create a ridiculous wheel just because he feels them out. So I feel like there must be more to him and Jacob than the fact that they were raised in purity.

2) I don't get it. We have so much story, and so little purpose. We get these little glimpses - CJ's and Esau's little rant about how humans are bad and they never change - and Jacob's quip about how everything else is progress.

Lemme just rebut Lisa for a minute - Lisa said that Esau is normable, relatable, how you'd expect a human being to act, and that Jacob is a wuss. I disagree. I think that Jacob understands that the people are evil. Even Esau sees that the people are evil. Jacob and Esau were raised pure, away from greed and selfishness. What motivates Esau isn't a sense of good - it is the type of curiousness where you shirk your obligations and you try to break free just so that you can see what else is out there.

I see the nobility in Jacob. Loyalty to his mother and the never-ending sense of obligation. He can't lie. He can't do wrong. Someone has to protect the light, and he knows he has to do it. That scene with the wine - I mean, he couldnt drink, I wouldnt drink - he has no idea what the light even is - but his overwhelming sense of obligation is what made him drink. And that sense of obligation is what makes him so good.

We have to connect this episode to the history we know. Why does Jacob bring people to the island? He is trying to prove that people can do good - and he is also trying to find a candidate.

One thing I've noticed is that almost everyone who has died has died in sacrifice. I think that is the huge theme that the show is building to. The fact that the candidates (or other major losties) lay down their lives, is the epitome of selflessness, and is the sort of good that can perhaps change the perspective of Esau.

We have Juliet's sacrifice, Jin for Sun, Sayid for the rest of them, Charlie, - I'm sure there are others - but I think this is a huge theme, especially in light of the upcoming episode "what they died for."

In the years since this episode to the Jacob we now know, Jacob grew a personality and he is out there with something to prove.

Posts: 1604 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Raymond Arnold
Member
Member # 11712

 - posted      Profile for Raymond Arnold   Email Raymond Arnold         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hmm. I agree somewhat with Lisa (insofar as old school Jacob is a wuss whose only "goodness" comes from Blind Devotion, which is not a trait I respect at all). I do think that Esau (I like how they deliberately leave him nameless, so that we are free to keep calling him Esau and not be wrong), has several good and relatable characteristics (a desire to "shirk" your responsibilities is pretty understandable when the person who gave you those responsibilities killed your real mother and has demonstrated no particular good reason for said responsibilities).

But even back then, it's clear that he sees other humans only as things to be manipulated. I think it's somewhat justified by the fact that all he has seen of humans leads him to believe they DESERVE to be manipulated. Two thousand years later he hasn't changed a bit. Whereas Jacob seems to have gained some perspective.

Posts: 4136 | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lisa
Member
Member # 8384

 - posted      Profile for Lisa   Email Lisa         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Armoth:
One thing I've noticed is that almost everyone who has died has died in sacrifice. I think that is the huge theme that the show is building to. The fact that the candidates (or other major losties) lay down their lives, is the epitome of selflessness, and is the sort of good that can perhaps change the perspective of Esau.

I don't see that sort of selflessness as a good thing. Not in any way.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Xaposert
Member
Member # 1612

 - posted      Profile for Xaposert           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Jacob and Jack are close to right, because I don't see either one of them of the exact same opinion or taking even similar actions to "mother" They just appear to be on the same side right now, when in reality they will turn out very different, because there are more than two sides. The way mother thnks and manipulates reminds me more of MiB than Jacob.
Jacob is quite manipulative and loose with the lives of other humans too, though. Remember how he saves Jack and Hurley from the Temple before the Monster attack, but seems to have an almost indifferent attitude about the hundred or so people left behind who will die? He seems to be okay with casualties, as long as they serve his greater plan.
Posts: 2432 | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Sterling
Member
Member # 8096

 - posted      Profile for Sterling   Email Sterling         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The "mom" is, like, the worst of everything in Lost. Violence is her primary solution to everything. She's needlessly cryptic, and withholds information from the people who need it most for no obvious reason. In the moment that Jacob threw Esau into the cavern, he acted the most like her that we've seen- refusing to accept new information that might change his course, violent in spite of all consequences. And, yes, I know she raised them as their mother yatta yatta, but his loyalty to her is truly baffling.

Esau is still a despicable monster, but at least he has a reason for being the way that he is. Jacob seems to be the one who's screwing everyone's life up. And the alternate timeline seems to be making a good case that everyone would be better off without his presence in their lives.

So what precisely happens when the Light That Burns Within Us All is nuked, anyway?

Posts: 3825 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Raymond Arnold
Member
Member # 11712

 - posted      Profile for Raymond Arnold   Email Raymond Arnold         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think the altVerse isn't a matter of "reality minus Jacob," it's "reality minus Jacob PLUS Eloise."
Posts: 4136 | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Xaposert
Member
Member # 1612

 - posted      Profile for Xaposert           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"So what precisely happens when the Light That Burns Within Us All is nuked, anyway?"

It is questions like this that make Lost awesome.

Posts: 2432 | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Reader
Member
Member # 3636

 - posted      Profile for The Reader   Email The Reader         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think that Mother doesn't know what the Light is, and has made up something to explain it, or she knows exactly what it is and has to lie to keep the secret.

Esau seemed to be trying to do the right thing by finding out what it is, but Jacob and Mother were close-minded and hostile to his curiousity. Esau must have found out something about it if he knew that a wheel would work on it.

Posts: 684 | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
swbarnes2
Member
Member # 10225

 - posted      Profile for swbarnes2           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Armoth:
One thing I've noticed is that almost everyone who has died has died in sacrifice.

Wait, what?

Charlie and Saiyd died that way, maybe Jin, but everyone else?

Anna-Lucia? Libby? The marshall? The guy who got his neck broken guarding the camp? Frogurt? Arst? Shannon? Locke? Nikki and Paolo? The co-pilot? Ilana?

I find it hard to argue that any of those are sacrifices, and that list is hardly complete.

Posts: 575 | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Armoth
Member
Member # 4752

 - posted      Profile for Armoth   Email Armoth         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Fine. Lemme rephrase.

Anyone who has died ever since the writers have been writing toward a telos...

And you can make a good argument that Ilana died in sacrifice.

Posts: 1604 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lisa
Member
Member # 8384

 - posted      Profile for Lisa   Email Lisa         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
How? Ilana got blowed up accidentally.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Armoth
Member
Member # 4752

 - posted      Profile for Armoth   Email Armoth         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Meh, she put her life on the line. She knew the dynamite risks.
Posts: 1604 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Bella Bee
Member
Member # 7027

 - posted      Profile for Bella Bee   Email Bella Bee         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I have been re-watching the series from the beginning and so found this episode hilarious (In a good way - I liked it very much, actually).

First Season: We assume that the Lostlets will find out the answers to all the mysteries once they get the hatch open. John Locke is going to figure it all out.

Then:
Maybe Desmond... no, Mr Eko is the one who will work out what... oh, no wait, it's got to be He-Who-Isn't-Henry-Gale. He's an Other. He was born on the Island. He talks to Jacob.
He'll know the answers.
Or maybe some remaining Dharma folks will tell us.

Then:
What do you mean Ben wasn't born on the Island, doesn't talk to Jacob and doesn't know anything?
And Dharma are all dead and didn't know anything anyway?

Okay, but Richard is ancient. Maybe he's an ancient Egyptian, or a Roman, or something. He actually does talk to Jacob.
He'll give us answers...
We finally spend some time with Richard. He turns out to be a normal guy who's just really confused.

Fine. But Smokey and Jacob have all the answers...
Wait.

But their mad other-mother...
Nope.

All these characters have been doing everything they did for faith in something that they don't understand.
They're all John Locke, bravely throwing themselves away on a half-felt suspicion, never understanding anything at all.
As are we, for watching this show - giving our time, our thoughts and emotions to something that may never have an answer or a resolution.
They're us.

It's all rather lovely. Unless it annoys you.
In which case, never watch 'The Prisoner' - they're not numbers, they're free men, but they don't understand what the numbers are for and neither do we...
I like it.

Posts: 1528 | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
  This topic comprises 18 pages: 1  2  3  ...  12  13  14  15  16  17  18   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.
UBB Code™ Images not permitted.
Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Hatrack River Home Page

Copyright © 2008 Hatrack River Enterprises Inc. All rights reserved.
Reproduction in whole or in part without permission is prohibited.


Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2