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Okay, then, so maybe it does something to the soul. Or some other magical explanation that doesn't have to do with causing a heart attack, or whatever.
Sorry for all the multiple posts, but I keep thinking of things.
It's interesting that Dumbledore chose to have his little (and extremely hi-larious) chat with the Dursleys now. Maybe it's just because Harry was going to come of age the following year, but perhaps he could have gone to talk to them then. It almost seems like Dumbledore knew he was going to die, and wanted to chastise the Dursleys and ask them for one last favor, before he was gone.
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Harry's assio horcrux spell didn't work through the juice in the basin. Snape's give-up-the-ghost spell might not have worked through the juice either.
Anyway, JKR has left a big enough loophole for Snape's redemption and Dumbledore's return.
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Shigosei, I noticed that on my last re-read, too. (I'm currently on 6.)
Every time I read some of this thread, I have to go back and read the book again.
Let me just say, I would advise some of you to do the same. *tries to be polite at 1:45 in the morning*
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Remember that in order for Voldemort to get a body at the end of GoF, he had to use Harry and Harry's blood in some ritual with a cauldron, right? (I've only read the books once so I may misremember this stuff.)
If Harry was ever a Horcrux (which is at least plausible), surely Voldemort got his bit of soul back then, didn't he? I mean, since that time has Harry had any more of those experiences from Nagini's or from Voldemort's point of view? I forget the order of events, exactly, but I don't think he has. Experts please correct me.
Also, we know Harry's blood is specially valuable, or that Dumbledore thought so. Would it be true that it's the means by which Voldemort can be killed?
quote:Originally posted by Shigosei: Oh, yeah, he only divided his soul 6 times, so 1/64. Perhaps it is like the binary fission of bacteria: grow, and split, grow and split, grow and split. Although there's a pretty strong implication that this is very bad for the soul, while reproducing is probably good for the bacteria.
Yea Dumbledore said Voldy was looking less and less human like, so the less soul you have the less human you really are. Makes sense.
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quote:Originally posted by Shigosei: I suspect that the only way Harry is a Horcrux is if it was unintentional. In which case, there may well be eight pieces of Voldemort's soul to account for.
It was definitely unintentional, I agree.
I had thought about Harry being an 8th part, but since we don't know if Voldemort ever got ahold of a Ravenclaw/Gryffindor item.
Food for thought: who else do you think was in Godric's Hollow the night Harry's parents were murdered?
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I think Peter Pettigrew would have been there - wasn't he the Potters' secret keeper? He may have needed to lead Voldy there, or to reveal the place.
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I feel the same way, Noemon-perhaps it's because I am a Muggle that I want them to have a better showing of things.
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If RAB found one horcrux, chances are that RAB found more than one. Now we have to rummage through Kreacher's collection and retrace Mundungus' peddling expeditions. One thing's for sure, we're not done with either of those charachters.
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I'd just like to point out that I correctly predicted that Dumbledore would die in book 6 after reading book 4! (The mentor has to be taken out of the picture in order for Harry to get a chance to do things himself...)
Now...
IMPORTANT QUESTIONS:
1. Why did Dumbledore give Snape the Dark Arts job this year? Since we now know Dumbledore knew the job was cursed, it suggests the possibility that the REAL reason he would not give that job to Snape is that he knew Snape would be gone after one year - Dumbledore didn't want to risk Snape. Furthermore, if he knew the job was cursed, in giving the job to him THIS year it means Dumbledore must have known Snape would be leaving it after this year. To me, this suggests Dumbledore was planning in advance for Snape's departure - why? Is it possible the two of them had planned his return to the Death Eaters in advance... maybe even preplanned how Snape would kill Dumbledore?
2. Why did Voldemort come to Dumbledore and ask for the Dark Arts job at the school? This question was asked by Dumbledore, but never answered. I bet the answer is important... it might reveal something critical about Voldemort's motivations, or even what he intended to do for his final Horcrux.
3. Why doesn't Voldemort let his Death Eaters kill Harry? If they simply killed Harry then that would save Voldemort from the prophecy, right? Thus, he must have some important reason not to let anybody but himself kill Harry... like because he STILL intends to use Harry to create his final Horcrux, or because Harry IS a horcrux (and thus killing Harry would destroy part of Voldemort's soul.)
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2 - My money says he came to search for a relic of either Ravenclaw or Gryffindor, therefore completing his collection.
3 - Bellatrix Lestrange sure tried to kill him after he told her he lost the prophecy, if I remember correctly. I bolt of green light flies by and takes off part of the statues. If Harry's a Horcrux, neither side knows it - although Dumbledore occasionally says things that are very close to admitting it. It's very, very confusing. The more I think about things, the less I know.
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1. I think you're close to being right about that. But, I don't think they had planned Dumbledore's death until after Snape made the unbreakable vow. I think that they planned to give Snape the job once Voldemort came back so he could help teach (because he really was teaching useful stuff) and so he could then leave because of the curse. They definitely planned for him to go back to the Death Eaters.
2. Dumbledore said that Voldemort wanted a chance to gather an army around him. If he'd been in that job he'd have turned many young wizards to 'the dark side' just by being their teacher. It would've been bad. He also wanted the other artifacts, but I think that was secondary.
3. I don't think that Voldemort knew that Harry would be involved in that last scene. He expected Draco to kill Dumbledore (for which Snape might actually get a tongue-lashing) and get out of there. The Death Eaters weren't even supposed to be there, but it seemed as if they answered to Snape while he was around. It's as if Snape was 'presiding' and they treated him as a death eater with authority. it was Snape that said to them "Leave him, he belongs to the Dark Lord" when the death eaters went to kill Harry, thereby saving his life (again). I imagine that Voldemort might think that was annoying, but still be flattered by Snape's apparent consideration for his pride and feelings. Posts: 6415 | Registered: Jul 2000
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One thing that I thought was pretty clear was that Snape did NOT know what Malfoy's assignment was when he took the vow. So if he's good, he intended to die rather than kill Harry if that's what the assignment had turned out to be.
He's either VERY willing to sacrifice himself to defeat Voldemort or VERY evil. There's little middle ground on that.
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I agree Dag. And don't you think, if he was VERY evil...that Dumbledore would've known?
Yeah. Me too.
The very fact that Rowling named an entire book for Snape (HBP) means that he's an important character. He made the ultimate mistake in betraying Harry's parents by telling Voldemort about the prophecy, setting this whole thing in motion. I feel like he'll be instrumental in ending it too. His would be a great story of redemption, don't you think?
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As to the splitting of souls, there's nothing to indicate that the soul is necessarily split in half each time. It seems to me that when making a horcrux, you have to have prepared before the act of murder. Voldemort planned on committing these murders, and planned on splitting his soul. Who's to say that he didn't take 1/7 of his soul each time, starting from the first?
I'd guess that the Avada Kedavra curse tears the soul from a body, leaving the body dead. The fact that we now know that the soul of the caster is also torn, but not necessarily torn from the body, kind of gets back to the idea of the unforgivable curses. You have to be willing to rend your soul each time you cast the killing curse. Souls of people like Bellatrix become increasingly fractured, but all the pieces remain with her. Hence she becomes increasingly deranged.
It would be interesting to consider the possibility that the damage done to the soul of a caster of an unforgivable curse might be tied to the soul of their victim. This seems to have happened between Voldemort and Harry. Perhaps Neville's parents sanity could be extracted from between the cracks in Bellatrix's soul.
While I'm speculating, perhaps the horcrux Voldemort had prepared for Harry's death was filled with Lily's soul instead. That would fullfill Harry's need to be with his family, which has certainly been a theme throughout the books.
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While the degree of the split in the soul might seem interesting, it is obvious that the souls retain a link one to the others so that the whole soul network would tend to equalize. That is to say even if a smaller piece is broken off, its connection to the others would cause them all to revert to the same size.
I suspect that the plan to die was set up before Snape took the vow, simply for the total lack of hesitation on the part of Snape in taking it.
As for the thing with Harry and Dumbledore at the end, the whole mission stunk of set-up. What are all of Dumbledores names? I seem to remember a very long list, are any of them RAB in sequence?
I am sure we can all guess that the potion was like the mind juice from the pensive, in that the horrific acts of Voldemort, perhaps all the murders that made the Horcruxes were recorded. Maybe with this information Dumbledore will be able to do some good.
Consider: Who has more unfinished business that Dumbledore? A ghost of Dumbledore would be a perfect guide for Harry to complete his quest, with Dumbledore holding vital clues in the form of Voldemort's own experiences. Perhaps the plan was very simply for Dumbledore to die while the information was still retained?
As for the Harry as a Horcrux theory, that seems like a stretch, obviously there is nothing random about the creation of such a thing, it must require ritual and preparation. It is clear that Voldemort did not have time for any such ritual after being obliterated.
Girding up his loins for battle though seems a possibility, let us consider... We know Voldemort would want to reconstruct his horcrux net, Harry could tempt Voldemort into battle with the opportunity to murder Harry, splitting his soul again and obtaining the Sword of Griffindor! Harry, Ron and Hermoine steal the sword as bait, Harry uses it in a few confrontations with Death Eaters that escape to tell the Dark Lord what they faced and the hunter becomes hunted!
After all the Sword bested the Book in CoS! Harry can steal the sword, issolate himself to train with the Order, perhaps in the Black House, perhaps in his father's house or maybe in Krum's Castle. He preps the battle field, potions, enchantments and allies to shread the assault force of the Dark Side and weaken Voldemort, then they fight as more or less equals, neither using their wands but instead using enchanted blades!
Snape of course changes sides at the last fight and Draco flees, because true loyalty is only bought with love, not fear, so ultimately Voldemort stands alone out of desertion and failure while Harry faces what he must out of love!
posted
I predict that early on in the 7th book, Harry survives a direct confrontation with Voldemort, a confrontation in which clearly Voldemort is far stronger. This will shore up Harry's confidence and give him some clue as to how Harry can overcome him for good.
But one of Harry's friends might die in that confrontation.
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We can get Sirius back in the next book by pushing one of Draco's transporter cabinets through that veil thing in the Department of Mysteries.
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is the veil ever really explained? is it another dimension? instant death? The thing confuses me
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Hmm, nobody responded to my theory that if Harry was ever a horcrux then Voldemort got his piece of soul back from Harry in the ritual involving Harry's blood at the end of GoF. Is that because it's very obviously untrue? Harry's scar hasn't bothered him since then, has it? And he hasn't had those weird visions from Nagini's or from Voldemort's point of view? Since I've only read the books once each, it's quite possible I've remembered all wrong, but there's something very important still about Harry's blood. Maybe it's the only way Voldemort can be killed, somehow?
Am I way off the mark, or is this at all plausible?
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Harry's scar bothered him tremendously after that ritual...all through book 5.
I don't buy the Harry as Horcrux theme just because I'm into the idea that they're objects that mean a lot to Voldemort. Plus, that brings up a whole lot of implications of Harry kicking the bucket in book Seven to get rid of a horcrux, and THEN how would he fulfil the prophecy? Posts: 6415 | Registered: Jul 2000
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"While I'm speculating, perhaps the horcrux Voldemort had prepared for Harry's death was filled with Lily's soul instead. That would fullfill Harry's need to be with his family, which has certainly been a theme throughout the books."
That is an interesting theory. But all of this "so and so is a Horcrux" stuff is being made without any real knowledge of what it takes to actually make a Horcrux. We don't know if the Horcrux is an open vessel that any diverged soul can fly into, which would make the Lily theory possible, or even James. But if the soul needs to be guided by the human hand into the vessel, or if it is created as the process unfolds, then none of these are possible, as Voldemort would never have done it on purpose.
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Thanks, Narnia and rivka! I figured I had it backwards or something. I wonder why Harry's scar has quit bothering him lately? Maybe just that Voldemort now realizes the connection is there and he has taken steps to block his mind from Harry, by occlumancy.
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"But all of this "so and so is a Horcrux" stuff is being made without any real knowledge of what it takes to actually make a Horcrux"
Rowling has to write it that way. There's really nothing more to it.
I'm happy making wide-of-the-beam speculations, because we aren't going to know any answers for about 3 years anyway, and it's interesting to consider the ramifications of different possibilities.
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Tatiana, Harry's scar isn't bothering him in book 6 because Voldemort is using occulemency to keep Harry out of his mind. (He didn't realize that Harry had a front row seat to all of his plans and evil plotting during books 1-5.)
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quote:I predict that early on in the 7th book, Harry survives a direct confrontation with Voldemort, a confrontation in which clearly Voldemort is far stronger. This will shore up Harry's confidence and give him some clue as to how Harry can overcome him for good.
But one of Harry's friends might die in that confrontation.
I would agree. And to expand on it, Ron will be kill but, through the encounter, Draco will be saved and reluctantly join up with Potter and co. Much bitterness and hilarity will ensue.
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I recently read somewhere that in an interview with Rowling she was asked how the Order communicates...her answer was (now dont quote me this may not have been an accurate statement) through their Patronuses...I know Dumbledore's Patronus is a Pheonix and at his funeral Harry though he saw a Pheonix come out of the smoke from the flames...could this have possibly been Dumbledores Patronus???
I believe that Dumbledore is truely dead...and that Harry needs to finnish the journey on his own...but I wonder if DD was communicating from the "other side."
I know its out there and It is a far fetched theory...but it is just a thought...
posted
The comment about Dumbledore communicating throug his portrait on the wall made me happy...
But I don't think any of the other head masters was brutally murdered with an unforgiveable curse...do you think that ruins Dumbledore's chances of getting a portrait in the office?? Posts: 6415 | Registered: Jul 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Hmm216: I recently read somewhere that in an interview with Rowling she was asked how the Order communicates...her answer was (now dont quote me this may not have been an accurate statement) through their Patronuses...I know Dumbledore's Patronus is a Pheonix and at his funeral Harry though he saw a Pheonix come out of the smoke from the flames...could this have possibly been Dumbledores Patronus???
I believe that Dumbledore is truely dead...and that Harry needs to finnish the journey on his own...but I wonder if DD was communicating from the "other side."
I know its out there and It is a far fetched theory...but it is just a thought...
Any comments???
That's REALLY interesting. I think he's dead too, but there was that unexplained flash of light....If it's the patronus, he can't be dead, so I'm not sure. But it's a good idea, for sure.
Why oh why do we have to wait two years?!?
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If Aslan and Gandalf can make it back for the rest of their stories, Dumbledore can at the very least make a guest appearance.
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Let the record stand that his full name is Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore. (p. 127, OotP, CN ed.)
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quote:But I don't think any of the other head masters was brutally murdered with an unforgiveable curse...do you think that ruins Dumbledore's chances of getting a portrait in the office??
He already got a portrait. He was sleeping in it when McGonagall was talking to everyone in the office.
I think that Wormtail is gonna save Harry and repay his life-debt by killing that new Werewolf dude Fenrir Greyback. The really creepy one who likes to kill kids.
I used to think that he was gonna kill Lupin because of the whole silver hand foreshadowing, but that wouldn't fit in with his debt. Killing Fenrir seems much more likely now that he has been introduced.
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Rowling has said that the portrait is just that: A portrait. The fact that portraits can and do talk in the wizarding world doesn't give them useful information, or wisdom. Essentially they just parrot stereotypical phrases or platitudes that the subject of the portrait is likely to have said. Hence Sirius' mother's portrait only screams racist blather. In real life, she would have been more rounded and engaged in more useful discussion, even if she was bigoted.
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The portraits of the other Headmasters seem to be able to do more than just parrot phrases. They are far from the complete person, but I think they are more than you seem to. They do seem to contain at least some memories that the person had in life as evidenced by Phinneas Nigelus (sp.) and his discussions regarding Sirius and the Black family.
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I got the impression from the portraits that they were essentially "memory dumps." They could interact on a fairly deep level but couldn't really learn or grow as a real living creature would. They kind of remind of the heads in Wyrms.
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I honestly don't see how Harry, or any part of Harry, could be a Horcrux. When you look at the process, you have the killing, which splits the soul (Every killing does this, not just killings to be used for the Horcrux), and then you have an incantation which channels the portion of the soul into the Horcrux. Based off of that, it seems virtually impossible that, in the aftermath of the backfired AK, LV still had the presence of mind to transfer portions of his soul from the James/Lily murders to Harry. Not only that, but why do it? He's going to try to kill Harry eventually, so why put portions of his soul there also?
Also, I don't think that Voldemort used one of his prior Horcruxes to resurrect himself after the AK backfired. That also wouldn't make sense, because then it wouldn't be "immortality" any more than a cat's 9 lives would be. I think that, since his souls are split amongst other objects, it makes the killing of the soul residing in his body impossible as long as those objects are around. That's why he's so pumped up about it. So when the AK backfired, it destroyed his body, but his soul, in addition to the other 5 (and soon to be 6, after Nagini in GOF) survived fully.
That's why it's considered "immortality", because you can kill his body as many times as you want and he'll survive. Thus, Harry must first destroy the remaining four Horcruxes before LV is vulnerable to a mortal death.
So, even though JKR does sometimes mislead us or drop clues...I think her summation of the Horcruxes for book 7 at the end were just to kind of make it clear to us what Harry's going to be doing in the next book. She said in an interview "I think most readers should be able to figure out what Harry will be doing in the next book." It just seems like it wouldn't make sense for her to emphasize what is essentially just plot points for the next book if they weren't true.
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Not necessarily. I mean, Voldemort waited ten years between his death and rebirth before he had a body and was really able to have an effect on the world. Theoretically, Voldemort can be killed, and *then* Harry could destroy the horcruxes before someone fixes the flesh, blood, and bone potion to restore him again.
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When I say killed, I guess I mean more of...eradicated? I was trying to say that, in the sense of Voldemort no longer existing in any form, then he is killed. It just seems like a weird way to go about things...kind of anti-climatic? But yeah, that is a possible way to do it...he'd then have to vanquish the remaining soul-piece that's floating around though...
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Not that I think it'll happen that way (you're right about it being anticlimactic), but I'm just sayin', it might be possible.
It might mean that Harry might miss one somewhere, and even if he vanquishes Voldemort, he'll spend the rest of his life alone, searching for the last horcrux so as to prevent his third rise.
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that I want them to have a better showing of things.
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(The mentor has to be taken out of the picture in order for Harry to get a chance to do things himself...)![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
