posted
He probably tried, but I got the impression (especially from the conversion at the Three Broomsticks where Harry was hiding under the table) that Wormtail wasn't that talented, or at least that he didn't appear so while at school. I'm guessing that even if he tried to get in on the action, he probably missed most of the time.
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Even if you're right and 4-to-1 really boils down to 2-to-1, that still implies that Snape was quite skillful even when still in school. And wasn't he a year behind James and Sirius?
And that book of his dispelled any notion otherwise. Not only was he already a gifted potion-maker in school, he was coming up with quite an assortment of incantations. Which worked so well that James used them!
*muses* I wonder if perhaps the reason Lily did so well in Potions was because Severus helped her on occasion?
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If he's so good at potions, and so good at breaking it down (as evidenced in HBP's book), why can't he teach it that simply? Is the intimidation factor really worth it?
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*blink* Since when does skill equate to teaching ability? I know many people who are brilliant in their subject -- and absolutely miserable teachers.
In any case, I happen to think Snape is a good teacher. Except for the whole hating some students and favoring others thing, at least. His goal is not merely to teach students to make potions by rote; it is to teach them SKILLS they can only develop by trial and error.
Skills, mind, that Harry (and Ron) have strongly resisted learning. And I expect that will come back to bite them in book 7.
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I just read the JKR interview with the ppl from Mugglenet ( www.mugglenet.com ), and she seemed to hint that it is fully possible that Snape is infact simply evil... and when asked about Regulus, her reaction kind of lead me to believe that it's not going to be that easy. Anyway, read it and tell me all what you guys think (sry if this has already been discussed, but I just finished the book yesterday... actually, when I hadn't finished it, I wanted to post that joke article I did a few pages back, and I tried to not look at anything, but I couldn't, and ended up seeing that Dumbl. died.. booo-urns)
Posts: 441 | Registered: Jun 2005
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I posted a link to my post here in a HP thread on another forum, which has a high concentration of UKers.
quote:I read a few posts on that link you gave, Rivka - fun to see all the discussion, and I'm definitely with you on Snape. He can't be evil. I just don't believe it, and it makes no logical sense whatsoever.
. . .
Haven't some North American readers seen by now that 'graduation' isn't something that happens at Hogwarts??? In British/European schools, kids don't 'graduate' from school. They leave school. In Hogwarts' case, the kids will sit their NEWTS, leave, then get their results some time the following August. In the UK and Ireland, graduation is something that happens on completion of a university degree.
quote:Even if you're right and 4-to-1 really boils down to 2-to-1, that still implies that Snape was quite skillful even when still in school. And wasn't he a year behind James and Sirius?
Nope - they sat for O.W.L.s at the same time.
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Ok, never mind that part then. I still think he's an exceptionally skilled wizard, and was while still a student.
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Okay, I just finished the book and started reading this topic. I only read the first couple of pages. I wanted to post my opinions on the Snape/Dumbledore situation before reading the rest.
Snape's main mission in the Order of the Phoenix is to get the Death Eater's, and more importantly, Voldemort to trust in him. Dumbledore most likely at one point told Snape to do whatever was necessary to keep that trust. I don't think Snape knew what Malfoy's mission was before asked to make the promise, but when asked to do it, what choice did he really have. 1. He could refuse, becoming less trusted among the Death Eaters, or 2. he could accept, hoping to learn what Malfoy’s mission was and prevent it from happening. Maybe even deep down he was hoping that Malfoy's mission was to kill Harry.
Later, we then hear Dumbledore and Snape arguing. At this point obviously Snape had found out what he had unknowingly promised to do. Dumbledore, who was having a difficult time finding the horcruxes realized how Snape could help. The best way, in fact probably the only way that Voldemort would ever fully trust Snape is if he killed Dumbledore. Obviously having Voldemort's trust at this time would be a very valuable thing because he is the only one who knows where the other horcruxes are.
Snape, now having Voldemort’s complete trust, has the possibility of getting Voldemort to reveal the locations to him. I can't see any other way we're going to fit everything else into the next book. Otherwise I think it would take Harry a very long time to even find the other horcruxes, let alone destroy them and kill Voldemort.
I hope that was clear. Sorry if this theory has already been posted.
quote: MA: OK, big big big book six question. Is Snape evil?
JKR: [Almost laughing] Well, you've read the book, what do you think?
ES: She's trying to make you say it categorically.
MA: Well, there are conspiracy theorists, and there are people who will claim -
JKR: Cling to some desperate hope [laughter] -
Does this not mean that Snape really is evil after all? Isn't it only clinging to a desperate hope that he's not? I don't see how, if he's good, anyone could be described as clinging to some desperate hope that he's evil. And yet those were her words.
How tricky is JKR? I haven't read many interviews after the fact. Would she say something like this that would turn out to have been so misleading if he were actually good?
The theories about how Albus is pleading to be killed, and so on, almost had me convinced. But I think this interview really shows that there's no trick going on. Snape is actually evil.
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quote: I haven't read many interviews after the fact. Would she say something like this that would turn out to have been so misleading if he were actually good?
100% yes. She is VERY tricksy.
Never trust that woman when she is laughing. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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Yeah, I'm not fully convinced that dumbl. was really pleading for his life (which I guess could make sense after what we saw with the potion) or that snape really insn't evil anymore after reading that part (and part 2) of the interview.. damn tricky woman!
The way I see it, we are never going to figure out what will actually happen until we read the book. JKR is just amazing that way.
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quote: I still think he's an exceptionally skilled wizard, and was while still a student.
Well, clearly. All the notes he scribbled in the margins of his old potions book were written while he was still a student -- and even then, he was inventing spells AND improving on ancient recipes.
He obviously isn't into sharing much, however, as his improvements on those recipes have not -- even twenty years later -- been incorporated into the new texts.
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quote:He obviously isn't into sharing much, however, as his improvements on those recipes have not -- even twenty years later -- been incorporated into the new texts.
Maybe. Or maybe magical textbook publishers are as bad as all-too-many Muggle ones.
Don't get me started. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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Best teachers they've had are Lupin and Professor Sprout.
Snape does have that certain something that gets people to learn by terrifying them. They pay attention because they're scared not to. Surely Harry and Ron didn't get that E in Potions in spite of Snape -- they're not exactly the type to work hard outside of class to make up for a bad teacher! I think they got their relatively high marks BECAUSE of Snape's teaching (in spite of what Snape himself might have preferred. Figure that one out.)
That said, ahhhhbviously students would do better if they felt like the strict mean teacher was fair and cared about them, cf. McGonagall.
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Being cold and ruthless can make someone a good manager. That doesn't make them a good leader, who ought to be attentive to those dependant on him (or her).
A teacher does't work in the stock market, but with children. Snape doesn't teach robots! Why should he be nasty?!
I agree with Liz B that it's legitimate to be tough and strict as long as you are also fair and care for your students - yay to McGonagall.
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I had an epiphany last night (I haven't been sleeping well... ) when I wondered--How will Voldemort react to Snape killing Dumbledore? I mean, this is the only wizard Voldie ever feared, and Snape just waltzes in and accomplishes what Voldie tried to do on numerous occasions?
I think this fits into Rivka's (was it Rivka??) theory about Snape trying to set himself up as Voldemort's dark rival. The death eaters might be divided, realizing that maybe Voldemort was a big pansy after all, and allying themselves with the new superpower--Snape.
At this moment, Snape will either pull a fantastic Suriawong Maneuver, pawning the deatheaters to achieve Good ends and leaving Voldemort alone to be handled by Harry, or be killed in the effort by Harry, who "knew all along" that Snape was an evil evil piece of cud and finally proved himself to be so.
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If the soul is split during EVERY murder, than Voldemort could have thousands of horcruxes, as would all the death eaters. I really think that it has to be a purposeful murder- "I will use this murder to split my soul." I really, really, REALLY don't think it can be accidental.
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quote:Originally posted by sarcasticmuppet: I think this fits into Rivka's (was it Rivka??) theory about Snape trying to set himself up as Voldemort's dark rival.
*grin* Not mine. You really do need more sleep, m'dear. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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If it's my original idea that Snape is trying to set himself up to rival Voldemort, then I'll happily claim dibs.
I'm feeling more strongly that Snape and Malfoy would have never joined up with the other deatheaters at Hogwarts, and only communicated with the one DE at all because Harry slowed them down.
I also wonder-- if Voldemort meant Snape to do Draco's task if he (Draco) died in the attempt, if he expected Snape to die in the attempt as well.
quote: If all cigarette manufacture suddenly stopped in China, and the 73 per cent of the population who smoked managed to get their hands on all the Harry Potter books ever published, they would have enough paper to make themselves 20 roll-ups a day for the next 289 years.
quote:Okay, I just finished the book and started reading this topic. I only read the first couple of pages. I wanted to post my opinions on the Snape/Dumbledore situation before reading the rest.
Snape's main mission in the Order of the Phoenix is to get the Death Eater's, and more importantly, Voldemort to trust in him. Dumbledore most likely at one point told Snape to do whatever was necessary to keep that trust. I don't think Snape knew what Malfoy's mission was before asked to make the promise, but when asked to do it, what choice did he really have. 1. He could refuse, becoming less trusted among the Death Eaters, or 2. he could accept, hoping to learn what Malfoy’s mission was and prevent it from happening. Maybe even deep down he was hoping that Malfoy's mission was to kill Harry.
Later, we then hear Dumbledore and Snape arguing. At this point obviously Snape had found out what he had unknowingly promised to do. Dumbledore, who was having a difficult time finding the horcruxes realized how Snape could help. The best way, in fact probably the only way that Voldemort would ever fully trust Snape is if he killed Dumbledore. Obviously having Voldemort's trust at this time would be a very valuable thing because he is the only one who knows where the other horcruxes are.
Snape, now having Voldemort’s complete trust, has the possibility of getting Voldemort to reveal the locations to him. I can't see any other way we're going to fit everything else into the next book. Otherwise I think it would take Harry a very long time to even find the other horcruxes, let alone destroy them and kill Voldemort.
I hope that was clear. Sorry if this theory has already been posted.
It was clear. It gives me hope. And I'm clinging.
I just finished the book, not an hour ago and I've been thrown into a really mean and nasty mood. Dammit! Admitting that Snape is evil and has been all along is offensive. It paints Dumbledore as being wise...well, except for that "Totally evil Death Eater on my staff" mistake. I just can't believe that DD would not have known, would have been so blind.
Nope. He just wouldn't have. I also can't believe that Snape would have resisted the urge to kill Harry for 5 whole years.
I'm clinging folks. Help me out, to save Dumbledore's reputation!! (BTW ?, I really like that theory.)
Posts: 6415 | Registered: Jul 2000
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At minimum, Snape wouldn't have saved Harry from Quirrel, would he? That would have been the perfect opportunity to be rid of him with no comebacks to himself at all.
BTW, The sixth movie is where the casting of Alan Rickman will really pay off.
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I agree about Alan Rickman, Dagonee, but remind you that Snape's own justification to Narcissa and Bellatrix is that the Dark Lord needed HP to be truly reborn.
Ah, it'll all come clear in Book VII. I'd rather wait than predict, although I do enjoy trying to decide if Snape is ultimately good or evil.
(Neither, like Harry. See how many times Harry has tried the Unforgivables since he learned about them??? He's no Sam Gamgee.)
Ultimately, I think "good" means that you think that the banality of human life is worth preserving. And that ultimately it's the most important thing there is.
Maybe I read too much poetry.
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I know. I actually finally could picture him as Snape during this book. The twain met and became the character in my head. It's taken 6 books for that to happen (it still hasn't happened with Hermione, but it has happened with a few others, especially Ginny.)
Dag, you're right about the Quirrel thing. Snape even saved Harry again at the end of HBP when he told them to leave him alone. "He belongs to the dark lord!"
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I K-NOW I read an article about the HP2 or 3 movie where Alan Rickman very enigmatically talked about things JKR had told him about his character, and that that had affected his performance. Of course, he didn't explain WHY.
Arrrgh. I hate predictions, though. It is what it is, and I will wait patiently for #7. I'm glad that someone reminded me of the overheard Dumbledore/Snape coversation, and that Sirius's brother's name is Regulus . . . but does anyone want to talk about ANYTHING other than what probably isn't going to happen in book VII????
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quote:Originally posted by sarcasticmuppet: I had an epiphany last night (I haven't been sleeping well... ) when I wondered--How will Voldemort react to Snape killing Dumbledore? I mean, this is the only wizard Voldie ever feared, and Snape just waltzes in and accomplishes what Voldie tried to do on numerous occasions?
I think this fits into Rivka's (was it Rivka??) theory about Snape trying to set himself up as Voldemort's dark rival. The death eaters might be divided, realizing that maybe Voldemort was a big pansy after all, and allying themselves with the new superpower--Snape.
At this moment, Snape will either pull a fantastic Suriawong Maneuver, pawning the deatheaters to achieve Good ends and leaving Voldemort alone to be handled by Harry, or be killed in the effort by Harry, who "knew all along" that Snape was an evil evil piece of cud and finally proved himself to be so.
Hmmm I like that theory, whoevers it is. It fits with Snapes character about revealing whos side hes on until the last possible minute. But then again, it really doesn't help Harry and the Order unless he does this after he gets what he wants to know from LV. But then again I don't think LV would let him leave after he gets that kind of info... if he gets that kind of info... if LV could prevent him from leaving...
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On my second reading of the book, I caught something that might have an implication in the next book regarding Snape. On page 549, it reads:
[Harry] ... how can you be sure Snape's on our side?"
Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something. At last he said, "I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely."
To me, it seems that Dumbledore was debating about telling Harry something that would fully explain why he trusted Snape so much, but decided against it. (Maybe because Snape wanted the reason to remain private.)
Something else was pointed out to me - since Dumbledore's portait is now in the headmaster's office, Harry would still be able to consult him and get information from him, he just isn't protected by him anymore. Also, he can tell Harry if he wanted Snape to kill him.
posted
My huge pet peeve is subjunctive case mistakes. That bothers me profusely. So...I think that the story was way anticlimatic and although there is a lot of vocabulary...I can't get past the English mistakes. I'm glad that Harry wasn't super whiney though.
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My biggest question, which I have seen no one on the last few pages address, is this: How is Harry going to be powerful enough to defeat Voldemort?
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Can someone remind me of the original signifigance Harry had to Voldemort, in terms of why was he killing him and his family as a baby?
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If you think about it, and this IS a dangerous way to think. If people were guessing right about Snapes motives in killing Dumbledore (i.e Snape was under orders/utilitarian theory. JK Rowling is obligated to steer us away from he actual plan. She would not encourage us to believe something that is in fact in book 7. Except for the parts where she is explicitly encouraging us to think a certain way (i.e figuring out who RAB is) take her discouraging comments with hesitation and dont disregard all that she laughingly brushes off.
There is NO way that its an accident that we find out about unbreakable vows in the same chapter as snape's meeting with the death eaters. And then find Snape doing something VERY out of character later in the book.
I still think its not Rowling's style to reveal snape as a traitor in chapter 2 of her book and then suddenly out of the blue have Snape act on it at the end of the book, with NO mention of snape making any further plans with the death eaters in between, or even contacting them.
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I'm only on page three of this mamouth thread but I have to say:
I fully agree that Dumbledore was asking Snape to kill him. To protect Snape, to protect Malfoy and also to put the responsibility firmly on Harry's sholders. We've all read Ender's Game, for Harry to become his most resourceful he needs to know that hunting down and killing Voldy his his responsibility an his alone. I'm torn as to whether I would like some Obi Wan esq moments in the next book ...
Snape 'I'm not a coward' is now going to bear the utmost torture of knowing that his allies believe him to be evil and have his enemies congratulate him for murdering the only only person who has ever been 100% on his side. So definately not a coward.
I love the Snape was in love with Lily idea. Perfect. Covers so much and explains how torn his is about Harry.
But ... Dumbledore did say that he could make mistakes and would make bigger and bigger ones.
Regelus Black ... I like it! And with Kreacher and Mungdungus ... fantastic!
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Wouldn't it be cool if the modifications in Harry's potion book came from both Snape AND Lily?
Maybe they worked together after class and developed many of the shortcuts together (well, except the dark magic stuff I guess).
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quote:Originally posted by Hamson: Can someone remind me of the original signifigance Harry had to Voldemort, in terms of why was he killing him and his family as a baby?
The prophecy. It stated that Harry would rise up with the power to defeat him, but, by trying to kill Harry he created the person that could destroy him anyway. So, really his actions ended up setting the prophecy in motion.
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quote:*blink* Since when does skill equate to teaching ability? I know many people who are brilliant in their subject -- and absolutely miserable teachers.
It doesn't. But as the HBP he was a much better teacher than as Snape. He explained things clearly in a way that Harry seemed to be able to recognize. I can understand how people say that having a teacher like Snape can make you work harder to try to prove yourself. But for that teaching style to work the teacher has to, in my opinion, give credit where credit is due. Even when the students manage to make a potion correctly, he still finds a way to turn it into a failing grade (unless they're in his house). So I think that while he may teach well, he's not a good teacher. But HPB is.
quote:My biggest question, which I have seen no one on the last few pages address, is this: How is Harry going to be powerful enough to defeat Voldemort?
The prophecy said that in trying to kill him, he would mark Harry as his equal. So they're equal in power, the question is whether Harry will be able to be quick enough and keep Voldemort distracted enough to gain an advantage.
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posted
I completely disagree. The HBP (or more accurately, his book) taught Harry absolutely NOTHING in terms of actual skills, as was evidenced by his pathetic (if showy) bezoar stunt.
All Harry learned how to do was follow a recipe. And he knew that after his first year of Potions, I'd assume.
Oh, and how to take credit for someone else's work. But he knew how to do that already as well.
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quote: The prophecy said that in trying to kill him, he would mark Harry as his equal. So they're equal in power, the question is whether Harry will be able to be quick enough and keep Voldemort distracted enough to gain an advantage.
But he doesn't know nearly as much magic. I mean, he just got waxed by Snape. Now, granted, Snape can read into Harry's thoughts, which Voldemort can not afford to do, but Harry's still a relative novice compared to Tommy. Seems to me Harry has to learn some more before he can take Voldemort down.
As for Dumbledore, I don't think he "deserved" to die, but does anyone else think he had it coming? He made so many mistakes: Trusting Snape for a terrible reason; being overconfident about his protection for Hogwarts; not getting to Malfoy sooner, even though he knew what the kid was up to; and, finally, freezing Harry on the tower. What??? Harry could easily have disarmed Malfoy and DD would've kept his wand and things would have worked out alright. DD just made so many big mistakes.....obviously I'm not buying into the theory that Snape is really good (at least not yet).
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I think I'm the only person in the world who actually took 5 days to finish this book. I don't like rushing through books. I like to savor.
Spoiler Warning
I don't think the HBP's Potions book was completely useless to Harry. He may have used the bezoar as a stunt in class, but he also used it to save Ron's life.
So, not completely useless, but since he wasn't able to use most of the spells against Snape at the end, maybe so.
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Yes, but Hermione did have a point. Snape mentioned previously in a class where Harry was more concerned about what a jerk Snape was being that bezoars were cures for almost anything.
As for the final battle, I have to say I've certainly never heard it mentioned of other wizards or witches using mind-reading as...actively...as Snape does.
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Yes, but how much do you remember from the first day of a particular class four and a half years ago?
Posts: 1547 | Registered: Jan 2004
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Harry didn't use the Potions book to save Ron's life -- Harry remembering his first-year, first-day of Potions, and Snape snidely asking what a bezoar was for -- THAT was what saved Ron's life.
The book only helped him pull that bezoar stunt in class with Slughorn.
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He didn't remember that first day of potions though Leonide. He had no idea what to do for an antidote in Slughorn's class, so the book still helped him. (IMHO) I'm pretty sure that if he hadn't recently had an experience with it, he wouldn't have remembered to use it for Ron.
quote:As for Dumbledore, I don't think he "deserved" to die, but does anyone else think he had it coming? He made so many mistakes: Trusting Snape for a terrible reason; being overconfident about his protection for Hogwarts; not getting to Malfoy sooner, even though he knew what the kid was up to; and, finally, freezing Harry on the tower. What??? Harry could easily have disarmed Malfoy and DD would've kept his wand and things would have worked out alright. DD just made so many big mistakes.....obviously I'm not buying into the theory that Snape is really good (at least not yet).
See, the only reason that I am buying into the "Snape really works for the good guys" theory is because I KNOW that Dumbledore couldn't have made such huge mistakes. He's a better wizard than Snape. He would have known. So I'm not buying into exactly the opposite of what you're not buying into.
quote:See, the only reason that I am buying into the "Snape really works for the good guys" theory is because I KNOW that Dumbledore couldn't have made such huge mistakes. He's a better wizard than Snape. He would have known. So I'm not buying into exactly the opposite of what you're not buying into. [Big Grin]
Yeah, I kind of made your point for you, eh? Actually, I'm starting to think maybe there is something to that whole theory, especially after rethinking about my post. It would have made sense for DD to freeze Harry so that Harry didn't prevent what DD and Snape had decided upon.
On the other hand, DD did say his mistakes tend to be "correspondingly huger" and I just don't understand why he wouldn't give Harry the lowdown on Snape killing him.
Posts: 326 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Well I can imagine Dumbledore might not have expected Harry to go along with such an order. Remember, Dumbledore has to fight tooth and nail (well, constantly remind, anyway) to get Harry to stop connecting pretty much every Voldemort-smelling thing in Hogwarts to Snape.
Harry's decision-making regarding Snape (and quite likely, Snape's regarding Harry) is terribly skewed-as evidenced primarily by both of their behavior in the whole psychic training. They both knew it was vitally important to keep Voldemort's paws outta Harry's mind, and Harry from the start refused to just knuckle down and take Snape's harrassment, and Snape refused to put aside some differences.
Then Harry decided it was acceptable (although there were lots of hormones and emotion going on in that decision) to grossly invade Snape's privacy.
Really, I think that is by far Harry's lowest point in the books. I can certainly understand why he did it, and I don't say I wouldn'tve.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Unless Snape really was working for LV in OotP. Then he wasn't so terribly skewed, but merely using his enmity w/ James as an excuse.
Maybe Snape really was threatening Quirrell to get him to stop delaying going after the Stone in book 1, and Quirrell covered for him on LV's orders.
Edit: I can take almost any ending except a Harry redeeming a really evil Snape ending. Been there, sat through the Ewoks already for it.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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I honestly don't know right now whether Snape is evil or not. I want to believe that he isn't (and many of the theories supporting that makes sense), but I don't know how realistic that is. I do think, however, that Dumbledore had another reason for trusting Snape-- for subjecting his students to his cruel teaching, for endangering every Order member's life with the possibility of a spy, and for having Snape teach Harry Occlumency. I don't think that just showing remorse would do it.
Another question that just popped up in my mind right now-- we know that Voldemort headed to Godric's Hollow to kill Harry and James, and that he had no intention of killing Lily. He wanted to kill Harry because of the prophecy, but why did he want to kill James? And why James and not Lily? Any ideas?
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![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
) when I wondered--How will Voldemort react to Snape killing Dumbledore? I mean, this is the only wizard Voldie ever feared, and Snape just waltzes in and accomplishes what Voldie tried to do on numerous occasions?![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
It's taken 6 books for that to happen (it still hasn't happened with Hermione, but it has happened with a few others, especially Ginny.)![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
