posted
I'm kinda wondering if she'll keep writing after HP is done. On the one hand, it's hard to give up making 36 million dollars in one day. On the other hand, how many 36 million dollar pay days do you need?
Let's just hope *enjoys* writing and will continue for the fun of it.
quote: But somewhere along the line, Snape needs unshakable proof of his devotion to Dumbledore, or his life will be virtually forfeit once Voldemort is destroyed.
I am fully expecting Snape to be dead by the end of book 7.
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posted
She's said that she will keep writing, but that she'll probably not write anything Fantasy again.
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Okay. I just woke up, and now am thinking about things in an entirely new light.
For a long time, I was convinced Snape was just evil. I went to bed fairly angry, impatient to catch up to the scene in the next book where Snape is brutally murdered by Harry, or Lupin, or whatever.
Here are my new conclusions.
1. Snape knew what he was getting into when he took the Unbreakable Vow. Otherwise, why would he say, "I think he intends for me to do it, in the end." This heavily shakes my confidence in Snape, since it shows that he really didn't need to take the Vow.
2. But I don't yet think Snape is entirely turned. It is entirely likely that Voldemort planned to use Draco simply to corner Snape into action. Voldemort knew who Narcissa Malfoy would go to should her husband be imprisoned, her son placed recklessly in mortal peril, and she left with no one to trust, not even her own sister - as any fear caused by Voldemort's decision would indicate weakness. Also, time and time again Dumbledore has shown that he values the lives of others far, far above his own, no matter what the cost, especially throughout the preceding chapter. Dumbledore has always been willing to die, particularly for children. I also cannot imagine Dumbledore begging for mercy. The "request" option seems far more likely. So, in all, I don't think Snape is all the way evil. It would be far too simple for Rowling to do that. Things don't look too good, since Snape turned out to be the Prince and the look of wild hate on his eyes when he kills Dumbledore - however, the HBP was before Snape was a Death Eater and before he was turned back to Dumbledore's side, and the look of wild hate - could that be self-hate? Could Snape be hating himself for what he is about to do? And don't forget, Snape never attacked Harry until Harry called him a coward.
I think that, yes, Snape was in love with Lily. When she chose James, though, Snape gave up on the world and joined the Death Eaters. However, Snape inadvertently got her and James killed, this brought him back over. As Dumbeldore (and therefore Rowling) suggests, love is more powerful than anything.
Yes, I expect Snape to be dead at the end of the next book, along with Wormtail - both of whom will ultimately betray the Dark Lord.
Also... did Voldemort accidentally turn Harry into a Horcrux? It seems... likely. Each object carries some of the caster's soul, and in time can even exhibit the strengths and the powers of that caster - as the diary began to become Tom Riddle... so does Harry show the powers of parseltoungue. And remember, seven is the lucky number, and Voldemort never got his hands on Gryffindor's sword.
However, is it in any way likely that a Horcrux would lead to a sort've psychic link between object and caster? Beats me. Seems doubtful.
If Harry is a Horcrux, there'll be a way to get around it. Harry destroys all the others, kills Voldemort, and then the overwhelming power of love eradicates the last remaining shred of Voldemort's evil soul inside of him. Or something.
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quote: did Voldemort accidentally turn Harry into a Horcrux? It seems... likely
It seems highly unlikely to me. I don't get the impression that Horcruxes can be created by accident, and Voldemort would have had to have been an idiot to turn Harry into one.
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I did at first hate Snape but I also could not belive that DD would have stood up for Snape if he didn't have a very good reason to do so. I do think that you all are right about DD wanting to save Snape and Draco. Snape has never once made any attempt to kill Harry even though he had the chance many times. As DD said this a between Harry and LV. DD did what he could to help Harry but in order for Harry to succed he needs find out on his own how LV work and to kill him. We need to keep in mind that any time that there is a person wiser than us we tend to depend on him instead of making our owen decisions. Next question about who Snape would report to? I do believe that the most important thing in this whole fiasco is to kill LV and Snape is know in a position to help Harry with inside information. Remember that Snape is one of the best occlumens so that would keep LV from knowing what Snape is doing. Just my oppinion and hope
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I have to say that I have my doubts about Snape. I've let someone borrow my copy, so I don't have it handy, but there was a quote during one of Harry's lessons with Dumbledore when he (Dumbledore) says something to the effect of, "I make mistakes, and, being rather cleverer than the usual man, my mistakes are proportionally more huge." (something like that?).
I hope I'm wrong, but that little conversation makes me think that trusting Snape so implicitly may have been one of those proportionally huge mistakes.
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1. DD's faith in the power of love and in Snape WAS missplaced, and the final book will be the darkest one ever, one that shows that he who believes in the power of love is a fool. Even if Voldemort is vanquished, if Snape was not what Dumbledore believed him to be, then net result will be a triumph of the dark side. This is a possibility. It would even be fine with me - if that's the story JKR wants to tell, that's okay. That is a human story. Sometimes Love does fail.
-OR-
2. Snape was just put in a horrible position, he will loathe himself for eternity for killing Dumbledore, and somehow Love will help Harry to win. In that case, HP and GW get married, so will HG and RW, and the people who say that the Harry Potter books are evil will be idiots again.
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quote: But somewhere along the line, Snape needs unshakable proof of his devotion to Dumbledore, or his life will be virtually forfeit once Voldemort is destroyed.
I am fully expecting Snape to be dead by the end of book 7.
Yes, but Snape doesn't know about book 7.
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"But why would Dumbledore want to die? He's so crucial to the fight against Voldemort. Probably the most crucial after Harry"
I was thinking about this too and here is what I think. He knew he would have to die to protect Snape, Draco and Harry. But more than anything, DD realizes that Harry has to kill Voldemort ON HIS OWN. Unfortunately, Harry could not do so if DD was around because he would lean on him. In a way, I think DD has made the ultimate sacrifice for the magical community, Snape, Draco, and Harry. By doing so, he has set the stage for Harry to fulfill the prophecy and achieve what no one else can. In this book, DD set Harry on the path, found the one Horcrux that could not be destroyed by only person (or attempted too), and the got out of the way so that Harry could finish what they both started.
In the end, I dont think Snape will help Harry directly, but on his own, Harry will figure out the special role Snape plays and that will help him to destroy Voldemort.
I think HUmean316 is right abou this. DD needed to die so that Harry could fulfill his destiny alone. Having/allowing Snape to kill him was necessary to force Harry to finally become self relaint to the degree that he needs to be to take on Voldimort. Also, with DD out of the way Voldimort will surely become more visible and Harry will be able to confront him easier.
Snape will report back to the Dark Lord and work closely with him which will inspire Harry even further.
Finally RAB will probably have collected the rest of the Horcruxes, which is great since Harry is really not a good enough wizard to find them on his own. Harry will probably steal them so that he can destroy them and finally face Voldimort.
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I have read all the recent interview transcripts w/ Rowling and after much deliberation this is my view of the real situation during and after HBP.
1) DD knew he was going to die soon and so he was preparing to die throughout the whole book. The only thing he had left to do was to make Harry's path to killing Voldemort (all 5 parts of him) easier.
DD did this by... A - Getting Harry allies deeper into Voldemorts trust. Snape will now be VM's right hand man and will be in position to deal him a devastating blow when the time comes. Also, we know have the possibility of Malfoy and his mother coming to the good side as well.
B - Letting Harry in on the secret of Horcruxes and what he must do to destroy them. I think we will hear more from DD in Book 7 on the subject as well - either in the form of a letter previously written or through the portrait.
2) Yes, Snape is on the good side, as hard to believe as it is. The only way he could have stayed a DE is to have fooled VM into thinking he hated HP and DD. This took the acting job of the century. When VM looked into Snapes head, he ACTUALLY saw genuine hatred for DD and HP. BUT... I believe that Snape is bound to DD and HP by an Unbreakable Vow that will be key in Book 7.
I think the final confrontation will come between HP and DD after Harry destroys the Horcruxes. It will be between Harry and VM and his right hand men, Snape and Peter Pettigrew (who owes Harry a life debt). This will put Snape into perfect position. I think the parallel is the confrontation between Bean and Achilles with his right hand man Suriyawong at the end of Shadow of whatever....
SNAPE IS SURIYAWONG!!
And Voldemort is dead, though, ultimately Harry must deal the death blow, as Bean did.
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Katie, I'm betting on number 2. Anyone who read classic series such as the "Dark is Rising" books know that there are some books that are darker than others in any series. That doesn't mean it can't be redeemed at the end. Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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Whatever story JKR wants to write will be fine with me. She's earned it - she can do whatever she wants. Even the dark one. I'll still applaud.
However, considering she has recently acquired a lovely new family and some really sweet soft looks in her eyes, I can't imagine her writing the first story now.
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I always thought Snape was the most interesting character. I still think he might turn out alright in the end...
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quote: I am absolutey convinced that when Dumbledore drank the potion, the words he spoke were actually Snape's words not Dumbledore's.
For the sake of argument, let's assume that Snape and Dumbeldore had a secret agreement, probably something very similar to what his agreement was to Harry. When the time comes, do what I say without question.
Listen to Dumbledore's words, could they be a verbal record of a message Dumbledore sends Snape after he realizes the potion is going to be fatal?
No, No, No, No, I can't, I can't, don't make me, I don't want to...."
Dumbledore tells him the time is now and Snape doesn't want to do it.
"It's all my fault, all my fault, Please make it stop. I know I did wrong, oh please make it stop and I'll never, never again...."
A glimpse of Snape's anguish over what he's done for LV. Could these be Dumbledore's words? What on earth could be all his fault? It doesn't make sense that Dumbledore would say this, but Lily and James' death really are Snape's fault and he knows it.
"Please, please, please, no... not that, not that. I'll do anything..."
Ask him to die for the cause but don't ask him to kill the one man who he admires in the world. The one person who trusted and gave him another chance.This really is tragic. I almost feel sorry for the git.
"I want to die! I want to die! Make it stop, I want to die."
This was his plan all along wasn't it? Break the vow he made to Narcissa, and die for it. Dumbledore had other plans though.
"KILL ME!"
These final words I believe are Dumbledore's alone. His final message to Snape.. Kill me.
posted
Dumbledore had to drink a potion to get at the horcrux, but RAB had already drunk the original potion. Dumbledore said that the potion wouldn't kill, or at least not immediately, because Voldemort would want to find out how and why someone went after his horcrux. What if RAB decided that no one else but Voldemort would ever go looking for the horcrux again? He obviously thought that it would be Voldemort who would get the message. What if he refilled the hole thing with a poisonous potion?
This theory might not hold water (or potion) after all. Would RAB have put all of the original spells on everything so that the potion had to be drunk? Probably if he really did want to kill Voldemort. Hmmm.... I'll have to think this one over. Any thoughts?
Posts: 1547 | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
Well, she did say that books 6 and 7 really are more like one story than two seperate books. Which makes it very hard to judge this one by itself (like it's ever been easy to judge one Potter book alone).
Now that so much has been explained, I'm finding myself wondering exactly why and how the bond between Voldemort and Harry was created. There's no real way to know, I suppose, since no one has ever survived Avada Kedavra or had it rebound upon them. The entire scenario is so unique, even Dumbledore doesn't seem to understand the specifics of it.
Man, that book sure kicked me in the face at the end. I was certain the HBP would show up and save the day (perhaps not Dumbledore). I never, ever suspected it to be Snape. For 5/6ths of the book, I was wondering exactly why the heck she had named the book like she did. This Half Blood Prince doesn't seem to be very important at all. Then BLAM.
In a way, the plot of the book starts with Snape, and ends with him.
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quote:Originally posted by katharina: Dagnabbit. I'm starting to not hate Snape as much. He really is a tragic figure.
*hugs the books* I love these books, these stories.
I found it odd that I really care about Snape even though he killed Dumbledore and I loved Dumbledore so much. The mark of a good writer is making you love a character even when they are as nasty as Snape is. But, he's so delightfully complex. Head of the house of Slytherin and lives among muggles... very cool.
Of course the Horcrux is a variation of one of those eggs bad guys would put their soul into and have guarded by dragons. Still, what an unexpected concept. Why am I not reading now?
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quote: did Voldemort accidentally turn Harry into a Horcrux? It seems... likely
quote:It seems highly unlikely to me. I don't get the impression that Horcruxes can be created by accident, and Voldemort would have had to have been an idiot to turn Harry into one.
Dumbledore explained that Voldemort used significant murders to create his horcruxes. The exception being the caretaker at his father's home, after he regained a body (which was also after he attempted to kill harry).
So it's very likely that he was attempting to use Harry's murder to create a horcrux.
The reason the horcrux couldn't be created was because Lily's act of love interfered with the "unnatural" act of splitting Voldemort's soul. He was in the act of trying to make a horcrux, it failed, and Harry wound up with part of Voldemort's soul, hence the parseltongue and other Voldemort traits.
So I think it's entirely likely that Voldemort made Harry into a horcrux.
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I really want to know what Rowling was thinking when she came up with the word "horcrux."
Some of her words are obviously made up, like "muggle" and "splinch." But others are very clever wordplays, like "malfoy" "slytherin" and "Avada Kedavra" (my personal favorite, since she took the magic word "abracadabra" and twisted it until it meant something like "make a dead body") and others I can't think of right now.
Crux means cross, but it can also mean the important point, or where something logical all fits together. Hors is french for "out" or "outside." So a horcrux is something outside of where a soul usually comes together as one? How'd she think that up?
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quote:She has lost the hopeful quality of the books as we are reminded again and again that we will lose the ones we love.
I think you may be reading some personal pain into this book. It ends on a a very hopeful note, to my mind. And losing people is part of life, and learning to deal with it is part of growing up. I think Harry's doing better and better with that. These are coming-of-age stories as much as Hero stories, you know.
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I think it will work out in the end. Think The Empire Strikes Back here; the second to last installment of the series should be dark.
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Not really, because evil exists. She's like the old dark faery tails. The pre-Disney, Pre-sanitized stories. They are dark, filled with disturbing things, but, they are more realistic and interesting as a result. She's not about to pretend and make her world all fuffy and cotton candy like.
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It's not out of the realm of reason that Harry will sacrifice himself at the end of book 7. After all his power over YouKnowWho is his power to love.. And greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.
quote: She clearly has moved her audience base. She was a childrens author (scholastic doesn't do adult fiction) now she is more a young adult author.
She has said repeatedly that she doesn't write for anyone but herself. The fact that the early books were readable and highly enjoyed by young children was entirely serindipity. And I think this is true of all the best books. When an author caters to an audience the soul of the book is lost.
The fact that adults have been reading what they thought of as their kids' books and discussing the deeper meaning only shows that they are just as well intended for an adult audience as for children.
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You know, logically I understand why it could never work out, but sometimes I wonder: were things between us different, would Ginny go out with me?
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But somewhere along the line, Snape needs unshakable proof of his devotion to Dumbledore, or his life will be virtually forfeit once Voldemort is destroyed. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am fully expecting Snape to be dead by the end of book 7. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, but Snape doesn't know about book 7.
I have a nasty feeling Harry's gonna kill Snape in book 7, not realizing the circumstances surrounding Dumbledore's death.
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posted
I really doubt that Dumbledore was replaying some conversation with Snape -- or speaking Snape's part -- when he drank that potion.
Rather, I believe the potion hurt so much, and took him to such a dark place, that he actually wanted to die. I think it broke him -- and I think he knew, going in, that it would break him.
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quote:I really doubt that Dumbledore was replaying some conversation with Snape -- or speaking Snape's part -- when he drank that potion. Rather, I believe the potion hurt so much, and took him to such a dark place, that he actually wanted to die. I think it broke him -- and I think he knew, going in, that it would break him.
By the way, who do we know that can make such a powerful potion?
posted
"Rather, I believe the potion hurt so much, and took him to such a dark place, that he actually wanted to die."
That's what I thought while I was reading it, then I was confused by why Dumbledore didn't get mad at Harry when Harry hadn't carried out the order to kill him. He had promised to carry out any order including allowing him to die.
By the time they were back in at Hogwarts it was clear to me that Dumbledore hadn't ordered Harry to kill him, but I was still confused about what he had said. And when Snape killed Dumbledore it really put me over the edge, because I couldn't imagine how Dumbledore had been so wrong about Snape.
But in retrospect, this is the only way that makes sense, given that he had ordered Snape to protect Malfoy, and that Malfoy was toast if he didn't kill Dumbledore. It also explains why snape had no problem in the beginning with taking the unbreakable oath.
"By the way, who do we know that can make such a powerful potion?"
Lily Potter?
Seriously though, Snape was a death eater, and something happened that made Dumbledore trust him. It's entirely possible that Snape did make the potion on Voldemort's behalf, before he made his turnaround. He may have even told Dumbledore about it, which was why he knew what to expect.
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posted
On second thought, given what we know about Voldemort and his tendency to do things on his own, I don't think he would have wanted Snape to know how his horcrux was protected. So no, I think Voldemort made the potion himself.
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Voldemort went to Hogwarts around the same time as Snape's mother. It's possible he made and hid this particular horcrux before Snape was even born. It's certainly not out of the realm of possibility that he made and hit it before meeting Snape. My guess is that he did it on his own.
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posted
Is there any possiblity that Dumbledore was MISTAKEN in trusting Snape? Now... did anyone catch the "look of triumph in Dumbledore's eye" at the end of book four? I have a theory about this, because it hasn't been fully explained. I think that Harry's mother dying for him didn't just protect Harry from Voldemort... I think it put a barrier between the two, so Harry couldnt hurt Voldemort either. I also thing Dumbledore KNEW he was going to die, and couldn't help Harry kill Voldemort. Thus, when he saw that the barrier was gone between Harry and Voldemort, he was happy because he knew that Harry could now kill Voldemort, whereas leaving the barrier there would allow neither to harm the other. What do you think?
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