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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » The Official Spoilerific Harry Potter VI Discussion Thread (Page 4)

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Author Topic: The Official Spoilerific Harry Potter VI Discussion Thread
GaalD
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I really don't see why Snape HAD to kill Dumbledore. He could have quickly gave Dumbledore his wand back and both of them could've took everyone else on. And why Snape made the ultimate promise? Beats me. And convincing the Death Eaters that he's on their side, even if he's not, doesn't seem as beneficial to the Order as if Dumbledore is still there. I think it's going to turn out that Snape was actually good but I don't like it. If Snape really wanted to help the order I think he should've picked up Dumbledore's wand, act like he's going to break it or something to throw everyone else off, toss the wand to Dumbledore, and AK as many people as he can before they realize what's going on.
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Synesthesia
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Of course, it could have always been a long standing agreement between Dumbledore and Snape.
That might have also been why he trusted Snape beyond all logic.

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GaalD
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But why would Dumbledore want to die? He's so crucial to the fight against Voldemort. Probably the most crucial after Harry
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Glenn Arnold
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Dumbledore wouldn't want Snape to AK anyone. It's the Avada Kedavra that really bothers me. As has been pointed out here already, the unforgivable curses only work if you enjoy doing them, that's why they're unforgiveable.

If he was carrying out Dumbledore's wishes, Snape wouldn't have enjoyed killing him.

Also as has been said here, I don't want Snape to be evil, because I don't want Dumbledore to be wrong. Dumbledore has acknowledged that he's not perfect, and has made mistakes, but when he supports Snape he always phrases it in absolute terms. He's absolutely sure that Snape is on his side.

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Glenn Arnold
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My guess on R.A.B. is that SHE is in love with Tom Riddle, and wants to restore his soul, so he can be mortal, hence human enough to love again.

She is also doing Harry a favor, although he doesn't see it that way. It seems impossible for Harry to find all of the horcruxes without Dumbledore's help, but it someone else has found them and destroyed them, it makes Harry's job much easier.

Then again, if restoring his soul can make him lovable, he might wind up doing a Darth Vader on us and being redeemed in the end.

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Humean316
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After reading the book again, I am convinced that Snape killed DD by request too. The thing that really sticks in my mind is how Snape fought Harry as they left Hogwarts. He was trying to TEACH him not hurt him at all. The part about not being a coward too speaks to the notion that Snape did NOT want to kill DD but had to summon the courage to do so.

"But why would Dumbledore want to die? He's so crucial to the fight against Voldemort. Probably the most crucial after Harry"

I was thinking about this too and here is what I think. He knew he would have to die to protect Snape, Draco and Harry. But more than anything, DD realizes that Harry has to kill Voldemort ON HIS OWN. Unfortunately, Harry could not do so if DD was around because he would lean on him. In a way, I think DD has made the ultimate sacrifice for the magical community, Snape, Draco, and Harry. By doing so, he has set the stage for Harry to fulfill the prophecy and achieve what no one else can. In this book, DD set Harry on the path, found the one Horcrux that could not be destroyed by only person (or attempted too), and the got out of the way so that Harry could finish what they both started.

In the end, I dont think Snape will help Harry directly, but on his own, Harry will figure out the special role Snape plays and that will help him to destroy Voldemort.

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Jill
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'Kay. My thoughts:

I wasn't surprised by Dumbledore's death, as I knew it had to happen for the plot to progress, but I certainly was horrified. I can't remember the last fictional death that hurt me quite as badly as this one did. And I do think that he's dead, but that there's more than meets the eye to the way he died. I agree, he would never plead for his own life. I still don't think Snape is evil, though the fact that he Stunned Flitwick and his look of hatred certainly don't look good... I think that Harry's capacity to love will come into play a lot in the next book in regards to this.
I hadn't thought of it earlier, but I agree, RAB could definitely be Regulus. It would make sense, and it wouldn't fit JK Rowling's style to make RAB a completely unknown character.
Mundungus is still in Azkaban-- how's that going to end up? And poor Stan!!
I think Fawkes will be back, despite what Harry said about him leaving Hogwarts for good.
And I do think it's very interesting that Dumbledore gave Snape the DADA position, when he knew it was cursed. Hmmmm...
What page is Dumbledore's argument with Snape? I'm trying to find it, but it's eluding me. Hagrid overhears them, right?
I'm not sure how much I like the idea that the next book won't be at Hogwarts. I've grown very fond of the place. [Smile]

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Synesthesia
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Now I have a really odd theory.
What if Dumbledore's death (a sacrifice) is simular to Lily's?
I don't think that Regulus is that important a character.
Chances are, he was killed because he refused to murder someone, plus he was killed by an underling and not by Voldermort himself.
No, RAB is probably someone entirely different and unexpected.

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Glenn Arnold
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Doesn't sound odd to me at all. Dumbledore has described death as having strongly magical influence, both in terms of Lily's protection of Harry, and the effect of murder on Voldemort's soul.
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GaalD
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I think I'm going to end up being disappointed in the 7th book in how they explain why Snape killed him. I really hope Snape did it because he's evil because there would be so many holes if he did it per Dumbledore's request.
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Glenn Arnold
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Above, I posted one line from Dumbledore while he was in the cave. He said "Kill Me" as though he were giving an instruction. But he also rambled and said a bunch of other stuff. (Can't remember, because my son has the book now)

I'm guessing that he was sort of replaying a memory, perhaps the argument he had with Snape. Maybe he was also speaking Snape's words, refusing to do it. Maybe even Snape's words that convinced Dumbledore that he was trustworthy.

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xtownaga
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hasn't snape looked like he was evil in several of the books (the only specific case I remember is in the first when it looks like he's trying to steal the stone), and yet he always came out on the good side.

And as for the identidy of the Half Blood Prince, I was pretty sure through most of the book that it was Voldermort, but that due to the time frame he was not yet truely Voldermort, but Tom Riddle, which is what Rowling had meant when saying it wasn't Voldy. Of course, I was wrong, but still...

And Synesthesia, didn't Lily's sacrifice only protect him from Voldermort, so woudln't this only protect him from Snape, who he seems to trust quite a lot anyway, and thus be rather pointless?

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Synesthesia
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No, it wouldn't protect him from Snape (as Snape is not after him like Voldermort is)
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dropofTapioca
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More RAB speculation:

RAB's note was addressed to 'Dark Lord', which means RAB is probably a former servant of Voldemort's.

This lends credence to the Regulus Black theory, but then again, RAB could be some other character we've never seen.

I'm trying to think, who else could have known about those caves? (where Tom Riddle tortured the orphans)

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plaid
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Did anyone else think that Madam Pince (the librarian) would turn out to be the Half-Blood Prince?

I was thinking that because the handwriting on the potions book was so difficult to read, that Harry had misread "Half-Blood Pince" as "Half-Blood Prince."

I'm glad I turned out to be wrong -- I was thinking that Rowling had made it too easy to guess the identity of the HBP...

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sarcasticmuppet
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Madam Pince, writing in a BOOK? Oh dear me, no! [Razz]

quote:
I'm trying to think, who else could have known about those caves? (where Tom Riddle tortured the orphans)
Well, the orphans, obviously--Maybe one or both of them ended up with magical powers. Other than that, there's the head of the orphanage (definetely muggle, though). I don't think Dumbledore would have told many people about it. Voldemort is now an established loner, so I don't think anyone helped him establish his horcrux hiding spot in the caves. Other than that, I have no clue.
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xtownaga
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I just figured whoever it was went back to Voldermort's past like Dumbledoor had and found the head of the orphanage and got her to tell him (or her...).

I am a bit curious as to how RAB got around the obstacle of getting the horcrux out of the goblet alone, though I suppouse he could have just brought either an underage wizard or a muggle (or a squib I suppouse) with him as Dumbledoor did.

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MidnightBlue
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quote:
Originally posted by Glenn Arnold:
My guess on R.A.B. is that SHE is in love with Tom Riddle, and wants to restore his soul, so he can be mortal, hence human enough to love again.

Destroying a horcrux doesn't restore the soul, it kills that part of it. Once you tear your soul apart, you can't go back on it. Or at least, that was the impression that I got.
quote:
I really don't see why Snape HAD to kill Dumbledore. He could have quickly gave Dumbledore his wand back and both of them could've took everyone else on.
Yes, but then Snape would've broken his unbreakable vow, causing in his (possibly immediate) death. Dumbledore probably knew this, which is why so many people think that Dumbledore was pleading for his death, not his life.
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BlackBlade
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I am suprised nobody else seemed to have picked up on Draco's eventual turn to good. It hit me one day just after book 5 that it wasnt his fault that he was on the wrong side. His parents were the cause of his allegiences. He says and does terrible things in all the books up til now but it always seemed to be with an air of "this will please my parents" attitude. I figured that by book 7 he would turn good and actually help out harry (with MUCH hesitation on harry's part)

I could be wrong and Draco will eventually make an honest to god final choice to play his cards with voldemort, but I was pleased that at least in book 6 and on into book 7 we can see the moral dilema that Draco is faced with.

I figured Harry would hook it up with ginny by OFTP there is a wonderful passage at the end where it mentions that harry caught himself gazing at ginny and she returns the look if memory serves. I was cheering for harry when he finally had the gaul to kiss her after the quiddich game. I was QUITE annoyed when he told Ginny that they had to break up for her safety, I certainly hope ginny's stubborness hold out passed this stupid obstacle.

I am pleased that Ron and Hermione's relationship though obvious hasnt come to fruition JUST yet. I probably would have been dumb to have ron/hermione, harry/ginny at the exact same time. Needless to say it seems as though Hogwarts will NOT be a part of book 7 at least not in its usual capacity. It seems as though all of book 7 will take place around the world. With perhaps an important event taking place at a vacant hogwarts. I think the possibilities are REALLY cool.

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sarcasticmuppet
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I just realized--There's been a lot of speculation about Fawkes in some of the other fora I haunt, about Fawkes being a horcrux of Dumbledore's.

Personally, I think it's absolute bunk.

But what I did remember was the Battle of the DoM in OotP. Voldemort aimed a killing curse at Dumbledore, which was then swallowed by Fawkes, killing it in the strictest sense. It has since regenerated into a full-grown Phoenix again, but it didn't bite the bullet this time for Dumbly. I wonder if Fawkes understood any of Dumbledore's plans concerning Snape or Malfoy, and realized that he had to let his owner die.

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Chris Bridges
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Couple things:

Yes, I think Dumbledore is really dead.

No, I don't think RAB will turn out to be someone new. It would be really cheesy to introduce new and important characters that late in the series, like writing a murder mystery and not knowing introducing the murderer until the last page.

And I haven't the faintest idea if Snape is evil or good. Not a clue. It could easily go either way with a good bit of justification. We won't know for sure for another couple years. And you know what? I love that.

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blacwolve
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Did anyone else notice that Ginny CAN'T help Harry in the next book? He made a specific promise to Dumbledore that he wouldn't tell anyone but Ron and Hermione about eh Horcruxes. If he wouldn't break that promise for McGongall, who's basically the head of the Order now, there's no way he'll break it for Ginny. I think that probably had a huge amount to do with his desire to break up with her.
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Leaf
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Hi...
I think everyone saying a theory about how DD dying is giving Harry some sort of (more) protection... is overlooking the fact that He did not die to save Harry, as Lily did. If anything he died to save malfoy and snape, but I don't think that will matter much plot wise. I was pretty pissed off that DD was killed "for no reason" (you know what I mean.. it was a fake horcrux), but you know, that's how it goes. It took me many many pages to accept that DD was dead, and that snape had not performed a trick or that the stuff DD was drinking altered the spell or something somehow. HAHA.... I guess I just didn't want it to happen. I really think this sets up great things for the next book, and I can't wait like CRAZY for that thing to come out. I think Jo Rowling needs to take all of the armed guards from the books delivery, and station them around her, *just in case.
Sorry this is so long, but one more thing. Did anyone else stumble and laugh over the part where Slughorn messes up Ron's name (cuz he's so inconsiquential (sp.. it's late shut up) to him because he's not destined for fame) and he called him "Rupert"... which is the actors name who plays Ron in the movies...
I may be wrong, but if im not THATS CRAZY and funny too.

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ketchupqueen
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quote:
If anything he died to save malfoy and snape, but I don't think that will matter much plot wise.
Ah, but see, that's the whole point. He died because he believes in Love conquering Evil and Death. He died as an act of love, trying to protect even the one who was trying to kill him.
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Carrie
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quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
Did anyone else stumble and laugh over the part where Slughorn messes up Ron's name (cuz he's so inconsiquential (sp.. it's late shut up) to him because he's not destined for fame) and he called him "Rupert"... which is the actors name who plays Ron in the movies...
I may be wrong, but if im not THATS CRAZY and funny too.

I did snicker at that point. Actually, I took a double-take and snorted out loud.
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Leaf
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quote:
Originally posted by ketchupqueen:
[QUOTE] Ah, but see, that's the whole point. He died because he believes in Love conquering Evil and Death. He died as an act of love, trying to protect even the one who was trying to kill him.

Right, I agree. But it has nothing directly to do with Harry gaining some sort of extra love protection, that's all I was getting at.
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ketchupqueen
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Yes, but that doesn't mean it won't affect the plot. I think the manner in which he died is very important, plot-wise. Just not in that specific instance.
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Samarkand
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Snape is currently perfectly postioned to pick off the Deatheaters one by one and/or lead Voldemort into killing them, or get them to kill each other, or leave evidence around indicating who they are for the ministry, etc. Dumbledore, Snape, and Voldemort are (or were) the most skilled Legilemens and Occlumencers around. If Dumbledore had let anyone in on his plan, there's a chance Voldemort could have discovered that Snape was not loyal. Oh, and someone's gotta kill Nagini.

All of the Malfoys, and Draco's other relatives (ie. his Auntie Bella and her husband) are now indebted to Snape, just as Wormtail is indebted to Harry, and as Draco is indebted to Dumbledore.

Why did Dumbledore trust Snape? Because Snape came to him heartbroken when he realized that the result of his reporting the prophecy to Voldemort was Lily's death. We saw Lily sticking up for Snape in the Pensieve in OotP, we know she was good at potions, we know from PoA that Voldemort tried to avoid killing her "stand aside girl, stand aside" when he went for Harry, even though he didn't know that her sacrifice would protect Harry. Why didn't he kill her immediatedly? Because Snape asked him not to. Harry looks exactly like James - but with Lily's eyes, as everyone is CONSTANTLY commenting. Of course Snape both hates Harry AND wants to protect him. I'm hoping there's a little heart with "Lily" written in it in that Potions book . . .

And has anyone else noticed that house elves can apparate and disapparate inside Hogwarts?

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Samarkand
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Oh, and also: if we read R.A.B. as Regulus Black, I thought I might quote a line from OotP, Ch. 6, page 116 in the hardback. They're cleaning out the cabinet and there was "also a heavy locket that none of them could open." And Mundungus was stealing things from GP and Kreacher was hording things . . . Oh my.
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The Silverblue Sun
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Snape is a slimy back stabbing murderous osama.

He MURDERED Albus Dumbledore, my favorite of all the characters.

quote:
Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred in the harsh lines of his face.
The Death Eaters had fallen back, BEHIND Snape so there was no need for him to act.

Dumbledore dying didn't save ANYONE.

Snape killed him.

You see kids, those of us who are heroes are weakened at times by that which gives us our greatest strength, LOVE.

Dumbledore loved Snape and from that love was able to forgive him, trust him and believe in him. Snape has not emminated any love in any of the books, except for a love of the Dark Arts.

I believe in BOOK 4, Harry accuses Snape of working for Voldemort and Snape gives him a smile that says "yes".

Wow. The end of the book tore me up. I really wasn't prepared to lose dumbledore. Awww man.

Look at the graphic on page 597 that starts out chapter 28, does that look like an act? or does it look like lucifer?

Wow. I thought that the HBP would turn out to be Voldemort, and was thunderstruck that it was Snape.

It was nice to see a strong surge of Love from the book, after not liking Fluer, it's almost impossible NOT to now after her awesome steadfastness by Bill's side.

quote:
I'm preeety enough for both of us.
That was awesome.

I really wanted Harry to end up with Hermoine, but i'm fine with Harry ending up with Ginny. Their kiss was cool, and she has shown herself to be a cool girl and a strong magician.

I do think that they will end up back at Hogwarts, it'll be more of a military base that functions as a semi-school.

I think Dumbledore will stay dead in the physical form, like all good mythology the Heroes always embrace the natural symetry of Death.

We must all die, it's the bad guys who try to circumvent death because they know to fear what waits for them because they know they can only take their soul and works with them.

Geez. So is this a PG-13 movie or what?

I cannot wait to see the end of act 3 big huge BATTLE in Hogwarts. That'll be awesome.

I salute J.K. Rowling, and I salute you too, my Hatracker friends, it's nice to meet in the old common room, and kick around some "elitist" commentary on that we call art.

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The Silverblue Sun
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Harry Defense of the Dark Arts teacher in book 7?
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The Silverblue Sun
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Or shall I say,
Harry as the Defense against the Dark arts general?

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Lord Solar Macharius
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And then once he offs Voldy, the curse will lift and he can spend the rest of his days at the Hog' teaching DADA, getting fat, and having twelve children.
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Glenn Arnold
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quote:
quote:
My guess on R.A.B. is that SHE is in love with Tom Riddle, and wants to restore his soul, so he can be mortal, hence human enough to love again.
Destroying a horcrux doesn't restore the soul, it kills that part of it. Once you tear your soul apart, you can't go back on it. Or at least, that was the impression that I got.
It's pretty obvious that my prediction is way out on a limb, but the letter doesn't say:

"Hey Voldy, I've got one of your horcruxes and I'm going to kill you."

First of all, anyone who's trying to kill Voldemort wouldn't advertise it. Especially by leaving their initials. It sounds to me like R.A. B. is trying to accomplish something else. S/he calls him "Dark Lord" which indicates respect, not contempt.

quote:

Oh, and also: if we read R.A.B. as Regulus Black, I thought I might quote a line from OotP, Ch. 6, page 116 in the hardback. They're cleaning out the cabinet and there was "also a heavy locket that none of them could open." And Mundungus was stealing things from GP and Kreacher was hording things . . . Oh my.

Yeah, I guess Regulus is the best guess for R.A.B. and as I said earlier, someone collecting the horcruxes makes Harry's job easier. But I think that person was trying to accomplish something similar to what I've suggested above, by putting Voldemort's soul back together.

I had reread Philosopher's Stone just before the new book came out, and it struck me that Mr. Olivander would be important in the end. So it got my attention when he turned up missing, but his shop showed no sign of struggle.

Perhaps there is some large act of magic that requires a special wand treatment and the horcruxes in order to complete?

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Glenn Arnold
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It's been obvious since Philosopher's stone that Ron and Hermione have a thing for each other.

quote:

I am pleased that Ron and Hermione's relationship though obvious hasnt come to fruition JUST yet.

Oh but it has. Ron tells Hermione that he loves her. There's no need for all the kissing.

What I really like about the way things have turned out here is that with all that snogging other people, Ron and Hermione, and Harry and Ginny, have both developed loving relationships that transcend sex. Same with Fleur and Bill.

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Scott R
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The Fleur/Bill scene was just awesome.

Ditto for Tonks and Lupin.

Awesome, awesome, awesome.

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Glenn Arnold
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quote:
I am suprised nobody else seemed to have picked up on Draco's eventual turn to good. It hit me one day just after book 5 that it wasnt his fault that he was on the wrong side. His parents were the cause of his allegiences. He says and does terrible things in all the books up til now but it always seemed to be with an air of "this will please my parents" attitude. I figured that by book 7 he would turn good and actually help out harry (with MUCH hesitation on harry's part)
My daughter has been reading a fanfiction version in which Draco and Hermione are going out, and Harry and Draco are good friends. It doesn't surprize me overall that Draco is heading for a change of heart, but I wanted to avoid that kind of speculation.

But as far as that goes, Draco's mother clearly LOVES Draco and Lucius. This is made clear by her argument with Bellatrix in the beginning. Also, Snape agreeing to the Unbreakable Vow ties into this. It's Ok for him to help Narcissa and Draco, because it's an act of love.

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katharina
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*hugs* Thank you, all.
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Lord Solar Macharius
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Some interesting things from a recent interview:

Peter Humphreys for BBC Newsround. - Who did Fawkes previously belong to and will he play a vital role in the next book?

JK Rowling: I am not going to answer about the role in the next books, which probably gives you a big clue, and he has never been owned by anyone but Dumbledore. You will notice that when Harry goes back in the Pensieve in this book, Fawkes is never there, and ­­ no, I am sorry, not in this book, I take that back. When Harry has previously seen the study with a different headmaster he saw it with Dippet and Fawkes was not there then. Fawkes is Dumbledore's possession, not a Hogwarts possession.

Samatha Scattergood for Waterstones - Which is your favourite member of the Order of the Phoenix?

JK Rowling: I keep killing all my favourite members of the Order of the Phoenix, but there is one member of the Order of the Phoenix that you have not yet met properly and you will ­­ well, you know that they are a member, but you haven't really met them properly yet and you will meet them in seven, so I am looking forward to that.

There's a lot at the link, but those two answers were kind of interesting.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/newsid_4690000/newsid_4690800/4690885.stm

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Leaf
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Good post lord solar.. /\

quote:
Originally posted by Samarkand:
And has anyone else noticed that house elves can apparate and disapparate inside Hogwarts?

As to this /\... One of the characters said that house elves have their own kind of magic, different than that of wizards... the block on apparition only applies or 'is tuned' to a wizards talents... or whatever you want to call it. It says it in the book someone, just differently.

This is such a good thread, with good intelligent theories... way better than at any other site. And that makes me proud!!

Also, does anyone else agree that Fred and George are probably 2 of the best characters ever created in any book? I think they are so great, always funny. She has such good humor with them. And the fact that they are so talented as wizards is also kind of funny, because they are so anti law/ministry.

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MidnightBlue
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I think that Harry will end up going back to Hogwarts next book, though he won't necessarily stay for the whole year. He does still have things to learn.

Anyone catch the Katie Couric interview with JKR? I missed it. The part of the interview they showed on Dateline last night was useless. It wasn't even her refusing to answer questions about the books, they didn't even really talk about anything.

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ketchupqueen
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quote:
Dumbledore dying didn't save ANYONE.

Yes it did. It saved Snape.
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Glenn Arnold
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Rowling said:
quote:
Fawkes is Dumbledore's possession, not a Hogwarts possession.
Which brings us to Dumbledore's will. She made a big enough issue of Sirius' will, so it makes me wonder who Dumbledore will leave his stuff to. There's no question he was prepared to die. I'm sure he will divide his possessions. It might be interesting to see who he leaves what.
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Nell Gwyn
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quote:
Originally posted by ketchupqueen:
quote:
Dumbledore dying didn't save ANYONE.

Yes it did. It saved Snape.
And it saved Draco and his mother...at least for now.
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Glenn Arnold
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quote:

quote:
quote:
Dumbledore dying didn't save ANYONE.
Yes it did. It saved Snape.
Only from Voldemort and the death eaters. It certainly cemented his position as being faithful to Voldemort, and made it possible for him to get near enough to do some serious damage.

But somewhere along the line, Snape needs unshakable proof of his devotion to Dumbledore, or his life will be virtually forfeit once Voldemort is destroyed.

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MidnightBlue
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Dumbledore once said (in reference to Wormtail) that Voldemort wouldn't really want a servant who owed his life to Harry. This is the same kind of thing. Voldemort now has a "servant" (quote marks because I'm still not sure who he was really serving) who owes his life to Albus Dumbledore. Voldemort in all likelyhood doesn't know this. It could very much affect the plot.
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Dagonee
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One possibility is that Harry's survival and Voldemort's defeat will all come down to whether Harry can trust Snape or not - and he'll have to do it without proof. Harry will have to break the cycle that neither Sirius nor Snape could.
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romanylass
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Does anyone else think that Harry not returning to Hogwarts mean she changed her mind about the length of the series? ( we can hope).

I was so saddened by Dumbledore dying, I knew it was going to happen from the cave chapter, but kept hoping she'd save him in the end.

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MidnightBlue
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From what I've heard, she's still insisting that's it's just going to be the one book coming.
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Dagonee
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Think she'll open up the world to an extended universe afterwards?
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