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Author Topic: The REAL Battlestar Galactica Season 3 Discussion Thread
ReddwarfVII
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quote:
Originally posted by Telperion the Silver:
quote:
Originally posted by ReddwarfVII:
Also, what does everyone think about the idea that when humanity left Kobol that FTL had not been discovered yet or was only in its infant stages? The cylons are able to make further FTL jumps than the human fleet is. Why? If FTL has been around for two centuries, don't you think that FTL tech would have been perfected by this point? Perfected meaning that no new advances in the tech is possible.

I'm sure that the Humans fleeing Kobol had FTL. Whether or not their tech was higher or not is impossible to tell, and not really important at this point. What is most likely is that when they colonized the Twelve Worlds, just like on New Caprica, they had near loss of that high technology, as high tech can only be maintained by a large industrial base which was now gone.

As for the modern Twelve Colonies they had a much higher technology prior to the Cylon War, which they gave up out of necessity fighting the machines. That taboo continued for 40 years, weakening along the way with the fear of the past passing away with time, leading up to using advanced computer networks again.

Two reasons the Cylon jump drives are better:
One, the Colonials had no need/incentive to advance FTL jump drives past the point of jumping around their own solar system(s).
Two, the Cylons by their vary nature as machines would evolve technologically much more quickly.

I hear what you are saying Temp, but they still had a couple of thousand years until the Cylons came around. The info about the Caprica series confirms that cylons weren't created until about 50 years prior to BSG. Even though they would have had to start from scratch like they did on New Caprica, the length of time between to me makes it hard to believe that established tech would not be further along than it was at the time of the Cylon Wars. Also, why no exploring? BSG got to Kobol from the 12 colonies in a relatively short amount of time and FTL jumps. Plus, Starbuck took the Raider back to Caprica from near Kobol in a single jump. That means the improved jump capability of the cylons would put Caprica within one or two jumps of Kobol. Even with the FTL's in the Raptors, Kobol was only like 12 or something jumps away from Kobol. Wait, less than that because the Fleet had left Kobol and gone further away before Starbuck's rescue mission back to Caprica. Now if what happened on Kobol is similar to what happened to the 12 colonies and humanity was fleeing cylons bent on their destruction, it would seem to me that Kobol and the colonies were way too close to one another if FTL was an established tech.

I don't argue your points about the cylons advancing faster than the humans, but given the time difference of two to three thousand years between the exodus from Kobol and the exodus from the colonies, I find it difficult to swallow that established tech at the time of the first exodus would not have been nearly perfected by the time of the second.

Now as further evidence to that arguement, they do seem to have perfected ship design, living in space, versatility and artificial environment replication (including really effective artifical gravity). It seems to me that an abnormal number of ships are very well suited for long term service in deep space without the resource of a planet within a reasonable proximity. That seems to be a general design basic throughout much of the fleet. Alot of ships were fairly easily coverted into long term living quarters when needed. In a society where travel is mostly instantaneous, why bother? Unless that is a design basic held onto from a pre-FTL time. And that holdover would have been exponentially increased and ingrained in ship designers if there was a time that the very existance of humanity nearly came to an end because they had to flee in ships that were not ready for long term space travel and did not easily convert to accomodate the trip.

Plus, why would have they developed FTL while on Kobol. Humans lived with the Gods and those Gods cared for those humans as pets or something. What need would they have for exploring space. And if the inhabitants of Kobol came from Earth, it's likely that they came in generation ships with the intention of never returning. Especially if they were fleeing Cylon type wars on Earth. Again, if they were to never return, what need would be created for humanity to discover and then develop FTL?

So the humans fled earth in generation ships with the benevolent earth Cylons and landed on Kobol. Over the course of the space flight and their time on Kobol, the humans began to worship the earth cylons as Gods because their advanced existance and those cylons accepted the worship of the humans (reluctantly at first). They accepted the worship because they knew that they were a more perfect creation than the flawed humans. For a time on Kobol, all was peachy keen and space exploration tech was not actively developed because no one really had any intention of going anywhere. Then the gods began to war with the one that wanted it all and the remaining tribes of humans were forced to flee or face extinction, but in ships that were not equipped to travel long distances in deep space. They knew of the worlds of the twelve colonies from what little exploration had been done and knew that they could make to them because they were close to Kobol. Perhaps only a decade or so in space instead of the generations it took to get to Kobol from Earth. However the 13th Tribe took one of the old generation ships used to find Kobol (maybe the only one or the only one remaining?) when humanity came from earth The tribe decided to make the trip that would take several generations and flee back to the birthplace of humanity.

Because humanity took all of the available ships, the gods of Kobol were left there to fight their war, stranding on a dying planet. Those that survived the war on Kobol, the final five, somehow put themselves into hibernation until the planet has time to heal from the nuclear war. A thousand or so years later, they come out of their sleep and decide to follow their pets into the stars. It takes them many, many years to construct a ship that will carry them to the colonies. Due to the destruction on the planet in the war, they have to start from scratch, but they do have time on their side.

When the final five arrive in the colonies, they find they are no longer living breathing gods to the humans they once ruled, but simply figures of myth and legend. Added to that, humanity has strayed very far from the system of beliefs that the Gods of Kobol taught them. They wander among the humans growing more bitter and angry. Secretly they help influence the advancement of techology to point the discovery of FTL, military ships cabable of indefinate time in space, and finally, artifical life. When the first cylons gain sentience, they act and influence the artifical slaves to rise up and destroy their masters. They fail and when the cylons leave the colonies, so do they. The human cylons are created in their own image and the cyle of time nears its completion as they plan the ultimate and final solution to the human problem.

Also, one of the final five is the one on Kobol that wanted to rule all the gods. It was through him that the final five survived those thousands of years. He helps to create the Caprica born cylons concept of God and the belief in one god.

Okay, that was long winded, but I feel much better.

[ January 12, 2007, 03:42 AM: Message edited by: ReddwarfVII ]

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Michiel
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This is simply brilliant! I really mean that, this is *brilliant*.

I don't know where you came up with this, but either you have somehow guessed exactly what the story will eventually turn out to be....or you should email this to Ron Moore immediately, because it is what the story ought to be!!!

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Occasional
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"It seems to me that an abnormal number of ships are very well suited for long term service in deep space without the resource of a planet within a reasonable proximity. That seems to be a general design basic throughout much of the fleet"

I find this argument rather questionable. First, what number of ships survived vs. the number that actually existed before the cylon attack? We are seeing at best a point 1 percent amount of space ships. Second, the first show implied that not everyone could be saved because not all (a sizeable number?) ships had the FTL capability.

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Michiel
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Red Dwarf: you'll remember, of course, that the first time they use the FTL, in the Miniseries, they're concerned because they haven't used it for 40 years.

I wonder why there was such a taboo on its use.

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ReddwarfVII
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quote:
Originally posted by Occasional:
"It seems to me that an abnormal number of ships are very well suited for long term service in deep space without the resource of a planet within a reasonable proximity. That seems to be a general design basic throughout much of the fleet"

I find this argument rather questionable. First, what number of ships survived vs. the number that actually existed before the cylon attack? We are seeing at best a point 1 percent amount of space ships. Second, the first show implied that not everyone could be saved because not all (a sizeable number?) ships had the FTL capability.

quote:
Originally posted by Michiel:
Red Dwarf: you'll remember, of course, that the first time they use the FTL, in the Miniseries, they're concerned because they haven't used it for 40 years.

I wonder why there was such a taboo on its use.

Both are good points. Granted I am making quite a few assumptions here and taking a few leaps of the imagination. However, I think there's a lot of evidence within the cultures represented in the show that support much of what I am thinking.

Or not. I'm not RM and I haven't read the show's bible. But it is fun to talk about.

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ReddwarfVII
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quote:
Originally posted by Michiel:
This is simply brilliant! I really mean that, this is *brilliant*.

I don't know where you came up with this, but either you have somehow guessed exactly what the story will eventually turn out to be....or you should email this to Ron Moore immediately, because it is what the story ought to be!!!

BTW, thanks for that. However, if what you said turned out to be true, then I have just ruined the show for everyone that posts on Hatrack.

So, just in case, I would like to offer up front my sincerest of apologies if I were to end up being right and spoiling it for the rest of us.

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ReddwarfVII
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quote:
Originally posted by Michiel:
Red Dwarf: you'll remember, of course, that the first time they use the FTL, in the Miniseries, they're concerned because they haven't used it for 40 years.

I wonder why there was such a taboo on its use.

Sorry that I keep posting. One thought on that. Maybe they were concerned because Galatica's FTL had not been used in 40 years or they just hadn't plotted the jump to Ragnar in 40 years. I don't know, I would have to go back and watch that scene in the mini-series to be able to really address that thought. Time to pull out the DVD's I guess.
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Michiel
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No, I think they said that no one had used the FTL for 40 years, i.e. since the war.

This is strange. It needs to be explained somehow. The stranger thing is that so many of the smaller ships did have FTL capabilities, would all of these ships have been 40 years old already?

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Carrie
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I'm pretty sure it was Galactica's FTL drive that hadn't been used.
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Occasional
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But, wasn't the Galactica's FTL drive used during a Cylon recon mission bfr the attack?
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ReddwarfVII
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No that was the ship that Adama was on before the Galatica.
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Brinestone
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I don't think the other ships in the fleet are all that well equipped for sustaining human life long term. After all, when Galactica's food supplies became contaminated, the whole fleet was starving. That says to me that the whole fleet is dependent on Galactica's food and water stores, and perhaps oxygen too, though I'm not sure about that so much.
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Carrie
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There was that episode from season 1, "Water," in which we were told that while a good portion of the ships in the RTF are dependent on Galactica for water (such as the Astral Queen), not all of them are (I'm guessing the greenhouse ship isn't).
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Telperion the Silver
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quote:
Originally posted by Michiel:
Red Dwarf: you'll remember, of course, that the first time they use the FTL, in the Miniseries, they're concerned because they haven't used it for 40 years.

I wonder why there was such a taboo on its use.

There was no taboo on it's use. And by the way, in the Miniseries they said they had not used the jump drives for 20-25 years. Galactica represented Caprica so after the war it stayed around its dedicated world with no reason to visit other distant locations that would take FTL to reach.
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Telperion the Silver
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quote:
Now as further evidence to that arguement, they do seem to have perfected ship design, living in space, versatility and artificial environment replication (including really effective artifical gravity). It seems to me that an abnormal number of ships are very well suited for long term service in deep space without the resource of a planet within a reasonable proximity. That seems to be a general design basic throughout much of the fleet. Alot of ships were fairly easily coverted into long term living quarters when needed. In a society where travel is mostly instantaneous, why bother? Unless that is a design basic held onto from a pre-FTL time. And that holdover would have been exponentially increased and ingrained in ship designers if there was a time that the very existance of humanity nearly came to an end because they had to flee in ships that were not ready for long term space travel and did not easily convert to accomodate the trip.
Or, that FTL jumping takes alot of Tillium and is very very expensive, so if you can make the journey without jumping all the better. In the Miniseries Roslin's ship took the slow conventional journey of two hours to Galactica instead of jumping.

If the Twelve Colonies were all in the same solar system then building ships with long range living abilities so they have the option of conventional or FTL is explained easily. Also the Colonies had many mini-colonies, stations, mining sites, etc that non-FTL ships were built too.

I doubt that some long forgotten memory of the exodus from Kobol, that had now become religion, influenced the economics of ship design. Ships of any kind, in the water or in space, are designed only for function and to be cost effective, ie do the job they were built to do well and as cheap as possible.

The Fleet, thankfully, has a Tillium refinery ship with them and a many year supply, "Hand of God", so cost is not longer a problem and the only thing holding them back is the life span of the FTL drives.

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Telperion the Silver
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quote:
So the humans fled earth in generation ships with the benevolent earth Cylons and landed on Kobol. Over the course of the space flight and their time on Kobol, the humans began to worship the earth cylons as Gods because their advanced existance and those cylons accepted the worship of the humans (reluctantly at first). They accepted the worship because they knew that they were a more perfect creation than the flawed humans.
You're assuming that the Lords of Kobol were Cylons, or a Cylon-type human creation. It could very well be that the Gods were like the Vorlons of Babylon 5 or the Beings of Light from the original Galactica series. A hyper advanced alien race that would resemble gods/angels to us primitive humans. As it is said, any significantly advanced tectnology/science will always be confused for magic.

I prefer to think that the Lords of Kobol are of the Vorlon persuasion...but considering the whole Eternal Return/Cycle of Time thing they have going on I won't be surprised if they have the Final Five/Lords of Kobol being an ancient Kobol version of the living machines we know as the Cylons.

If that's the case, then the Cylons from the Twelve Colonies bumped into or were found by the Final Five. The Five influenced Cylon evolution, telling them to build humanoid models based off their on dead friends from Kobol.

OH! Brainstorm! Remember at the end of "Eye of Jupiter" we hear Laura quoting scripture about the Temple of Five, built to honor the Five that worshiped the One. THAT'S how the Cylons got their religion! [Eek!]

Reddwarf, I think you may be on to something.

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Telperion the Silver
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Ok ok... now if we go along with the idea that the Final Five are the surviving Lords of Kobol who were infact an ancient Kobolian version of the Cylons who then influenced the real Cylons to become like the Kobol versions of old... then who is this One that they worship?? The Cylon god, sure... but what is it?

I was operating under the idea that the Cylon God was the fallen 13th Lord of Kobol that Elosha talked about way back in 1st Season. Could it be that there were 13 models and one of them decided to take over, thus the war on Kobol began. So the Final Five were allied to the rebel model perhaps? They taught the Cylons who in turn created their own religion out of it. It might explain why the Cylons broke the peace treaty to exterminate Humanity if their religion is based off a rebel Kobol version of themselves that wanted to rule over Humans.

But why would the 13th Tribe build a temple to the Five who worshiped the One if that One was evil?
Hmm...

And we can't forget that there are strange forces at work that cannot be explained by normal means. We have the visions and prophecies of Roslin, Number Six, Leoben, and the Oracle on New Caprica that have all come true. SOMETHING is going on.

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Michiel
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I think Reddwarf is on to something because the "Gods"/"Lorfs of Kobol" are the one big thing that is really in need of a -naturalistic- explanation. This series takes itself quite seriously, and the audience does not believe there is a divinity called Zeus or one called Athena, who is divine but commits suicide. Nonetheless, humans on Kobol experienced some kind of beings that they worshipped as Gods. Now, in one of the episodes, I can't remember even what season, Balthar asks six whether cylons age. Remember also that Six is so surprised by/interested in the human baby in the beginning of the Miniseries. Both things suggest that the Cylons do not age and never were babies. We also know that cylons can "die" but have superior skills to regular humans. Synthetic humpoids of the Cylon-type, with superior knowledge/technology, would meet all criteria for the Lords of Kobol. It is one of the best explanations out there and I personally think Reddwarf must be right because of the heavy emphasis on the "recurrence of the same"-theme.

The exact details about ships etc. are more speculative. There are other plausible explanations for the FTL phenomenon.

What is interesting is the tie-in with Earth. Obviously there is room for a connect with the Atlantis-myth. But since we have the same names of the Gods, there must be some obvious connection. Either the names of the Greek gods were the sources of the names of the Lord of Kobol, i.e. they were here first and Atlantis developed a high-tech civ that went all the way to Cylonhood before it was destroyed, OR human life didn't originate on Earth but originated on Kobol ("the nearest star to the Gods", in Mormon theology) and it was the humans who left for Earth who brought the names of these Gods to earth. It ties into timing, does this series take place a long time before our own time, or simulatenously, or in the distant future?

As for the Cylon God. I don't think we'll be told who he is.I don't think the Cylon God is a Wizzard of Oz type character who will be revealed to us. I think I heard Ron Moore say this somewhere explicitly. The Cylon God may simply be the God of all monotheistic beliefs. If you belief in God, as many audience members do, no naturalistic explanation for the one God of the Cylons is needed.

By the way, Reddwarf, you should really post your reflections on the SciFi BSG Forum.

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Michiel
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quote:
Originally posted by ReddwarfVII:
quote:
Originally posted by Michiel:
This is simply brilliant! I really mean that, this is *brilliant*.

I don't know where you came up with this, but either you have somehow guessed exactly what the story will eventually turn out to be....or you should email this to Ron Moore immediately, because it is what the story ought to be!!!

BTW, thanks for that. However, if what you said turned out to be true, then I have just ruined the show for everyone that posts on Hatrack.

So, just in case, I would like to offer up front my sincerest of apologies if I were to end up being right and spoiling it for the rest of us.

No, you haven't. We're smart people, we're thinking about this all the time anyway! And we won't know until the exact moment that everone else will know, i.e. when shown on screen!

The speculation is fun because it makes the story serious!

And if I read that interview accurately, it is by no means clear if there will be even a Season 4 so we may never know where Moore wanted to take us!

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0Megabyte
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I hope there's a season 4. There had better be.

I want to see where these people want to take us. In a movie or television show (God, I think of BSG more as a movie than a tv show. A really long, really epic movie. It's shot like one, at least.) the storyteller takes the audience for a ride. A sort of "let me show you something."

I want to see this something very, very badly.

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Bella Bee
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quote:
I hope there's a season 4. There had better be.
My mother, who remembers when the original series of BG was cancelled said 'all this has happened before'.

It would be sickening if there isn't another series, but I'm hopeful we'll at the very least get to find out the rest of the story. Especially after all the support for Firefly, which only ran for a few weeks.

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ReddwarfVII
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quote:
Originally posted by Michiel:
By the way, Reddwarf, you should really post your reflections on the SciFi BSG Forum.

Thanks. I won't because I don't like the Scifi forums. Too hard to navigate and the Hatrack forums are a much friendlier evironment. However, feel free to quote anything you like of mine over there.
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ReddwarfVII
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Just so you all know, my overriding belief is that BSG is taking place in our future. I can totally see a Matrix like or Terminator like future causing mankind to flee to the stars. I am not connecting Kobol with Kolob simply because I am working from the assumption that the current BSG team have kept only the premise of the original and jetisoned most of the original backstory. Plus, I have always assumed that Kolob is a spiritual plane of existance, not necessarily an actual planet in the cosmos. So much of what makes up my theories are going to be working from those assumptions on my part.
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Carrie
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quote:
Originally posted by ReddwarfVII:
quote:
Originally posted by Michiel:
By the way, Reddwarf, you should really post your reflections on the SciFi BSG Forum.

Thanks. I won't because I don't like the Scifi forums. Too hard to navigate and the Hatrack forums are a much friendlier evironment. However, feel free to quote anything you like of mine over there.
You could try Ragnar Anchorage or the GateWorld BSG forums... [Wink]
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ReddwarfVII
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quote:
Originally posted by Carrie:
quote:
Originally posted by ReddwarfVII:
quote:
Originally posted by Michiel:
By the way, Reddwarf, you should really post your reflections on the SciFi BSG Forum.

Thanks. I won't because I don't like the Scifi forums. Too hard to navigate and the Hatrack forums are a much friendlier evironment. However, feel free to quote anything you like of mine over there.
You could try Ragnar Anchorage or the GateWorld BSG forums... [Wink]
Nah, I'm happy here! [Wink] [Big Grin]
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ReddwarfVII
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Okay, this is going to be a long one, because I really like what everyone has said, but I wanted to clarify my thoughts. You are thinking in the same vein as I was and I wanted to again add my two bits to each.

quote:
Originally posted by Brinestone:
I don't think the other ships in the fleet are all that well equipped for sustaining human life long term. After all, when Galactica's food supplies became contaminated, the whole fleet was starving. That says to me that the whole fleet is dependent on Galactica's food and water stores, and perhaps oxygen too, though I'm not sure about that so much.

quote:
Originally posted by Carrie:
There was that episode from season 1, "Water," in which we were told that while a good portion of the ships in the RTF are dependent on Galactica for water (such as the Astral Queen), not all of them are (I'm guessing the greenhouse ship isn't).

quote:
Originally posted by Telperion the Silver:
Or, that FTL jumping takes alot of Tillium and is very very expensive, so if you can make the journey without jumping all the better. In the Miniseries Roslin's ship took the slow conventional journey of two hours to Galactica instead of jumping.

If the Twelve Colonies were all in the same solar system then building ships with long range living abilities so they have the option of conventional or FTL is explained easily. Also the Colonies had many mini-colonies, stations, mining sites, etc that non-FTL ships were built too.

I doubt that some long forgotten memory of the exodus from Kobol, that had now become religion, influenced the economics of ship design. Ships of any kind, in the water or in space, are designed only for function and to be cost effective, ie do the job they were built to do well and as cheap as possible.

The Fleet, thankfully, has a Tillium refinery ship with them and a many year supply, "Hand of God", so cost is not longer a problem and the only thing holding them back is the life span of the FTL drives.

When I said ingrained, I really meant exactly that. A concept of survival that is so basic that is simply taught and integrated without need of memory or justification. It just is. We see this all the time in construction. Innovations in design start out as revolutionary or weird. Then something happens, those design enhancements show that lives could have been saved if they were there and those enhancements get so ingrained that they become commonplace. It doesnít matter if no one remembers why they build ships this way, itís just part of basic ship design. Think Fiddler on the Roof here.

Somebody talking to Tevya, ďWhy do we do this thing?Ē

Tevyaís response, ďIt doesnít matter why, itís TRADITION!Ē

Of course even so, there are still a lot of ship that rely heavily on the Galactica for many basic needs like water and food. But itís important to note that all of the ships have some long term capability. Only the military ships like Galatica have an indefinite capability.

Well, another thing to realize is that ships that have FTL drives, should just for the fact that they have FTL, should be built to be in space for long periods, because if a jump went wrong or a drive went out, then that ship could be a very long ways from its port. Donít think that tillium is necessarily the deciding factor here. See the next bit.

quote:
Originally posted by Telperion the Silver:
quote:
Originally posted by Michiel:
Red Dwarf: you'll remember, of course, that the first time they use the FTL, in the Miniseries, they're concerned because they haven't used it for 40 years.

I wonder why there was such a taboo on its use.

There was no taboo on it's use. And by the way, in the Miniseries they said they had not used the jump drives for 20-25 years. Galactica represented Caprica so after the war it stayed around its dedicated world with no reason to visit other distant locations that would take FTL to reach.
Actually this supports the idea of FTL as a newer technology even further. Donít you think that if theyíve had thousands of years of using FTL that they would have made much more efficient to the point that the idea of doing a conventional space flight when you could just jump there would seem really ridiculous.

Imagine for a moment that the introduction of alternate fuel engines and stronger lighter building materials give way to personal vehicles that have the ability drive on the road and fly as well. In terms of fuel consumption, driving still uses less gas overall than flying, but the time saved by flying somewhere far outweighs the gas saving benefits. Sure there is still a lot of driving, but when time is a premium or critical, who would drive when they could fly?

Plus, if I remember that conversation from the mini-series about their hesitation to use the FTL drive on Galatica, part of the hesitation came from the fact that they had not plotted an FTL jump in quite awhile. That surprises me, especially on a military ship like a Battlestar. Now I have never served in military, but to me, it seems like when a ship is on duty there are only two settings, on and off. Why wouldnít an FTL jump be a common place occurrence? Especially in the military where time is always of the essence.

To me that smacks of a new tech that was developed either during the war or right before it. Plus there seemed to be a kind of distrust of the tech. Maybe it was a tech discovered by the cylons and used by them during the war. That led the humans to capture the tech and integrate into their own arsenal to avoid from being behind the eight ball when dealing with the cylons. If it was the cylons that developed FTL tech that would explain their greater and more efficient use of it, besides the whole being robots thing. They put it everything, they can plot jumps faster, and they can jump much further than the human fleets can. If they invented FTL during the war they would have a greater base understanding of it and therefore be far more comfortable and efficient with its use. Whereas the humans, yes they have it, yes they use it, but only when they have to because they donít completely trust it. Ö.Maybe.

quote:
I prefer to think that the Lords of Kobol are of the Vorlon persuasion...but considering the whole Eternal Return/Cycle of Time thing they have going on I won't be surprised if they have the Final Five/Lords of Kobol being an ancient Kobol version of the living machines we know as the Cylons.

If that's the case, then the Cylons from the Twelve Colonies bumped into or were found by the Final Five. The Five influenced Cylon evolution, telling them to build humanoid models based off their on dead friends from Kobol.

OH! Brainstorm! Remember at the end of "Eye of Jupiter" we hear Laura quoting scripture about the Temple of Five, built to honor the Five that worshiped the One. THAT'S how the Cylons got their religion! [Eek!]

Reddwarf, I think you may be on to something. [/QB]

quote:
Originally posted by Telperion the Silver:
Ok ok... now if we go along with the idea that the Final Five are the surviving Lords of Kobol who were infact an ancient Kobolian version of the Cylons who then influenced the real Cylons to become like the Kobol versions of old... then who is this One that they worship?? The Cylon god, sure... but what is it?

I was operating under the idea that the Cylon God was the fallen 13th Lord of Kobol that Elosha talked about way back in 1st Season. Could it be that there were 13 models and one of them decided to take over, thus the war on Kobol began. So the Final Five were allied to the rebel model perhaps? They taught the Cylons who in turn created their own religion out of it. It might explain why the Cylons broke the peace treaty to exterminate Humanity if their religion is based off a rebel Kobol version of themselves that wanted to rule over Humans.

But why would the 13th Tribe build a temple to the Five who worshiped the One if that One was evil?
Hmm...

And we can't forget that there are strange forces at work that cannot be explained by normal means. We have the visions and prophecies of Roslin, Number Six, Leoben, and the Oracle on New Caprica that have all come true. SOMETHING is going on.

I really like where you are going here. So first off, throw out a little bit of what I said earlier. Letís assume that the One wasnít evil or maybe wasnít even a cylon. The war that destroyed Kobol could have been a religious one. The one could be a rebellious cylon or the one could simply refer to the one god that the five Lords began to worship instead of the polytheism that was common or both.

Imagine in the trip from Earth that humans began to worship the cylons because of their superior design. When I say worship, I donít mean in a religious sense, I mean that it started out as a worship much like what already happens when people look up to others. Hero worship, someone who is wise, a brilliant scientist, etc. Then over time that admiration/worship birthed a polytheistic religion. Since the humans were mortal, but the cylons were immortal, the cylons began to believe they were gods, like the Egyptian Pharoahs, and took on god like names from Earthís mythology. Each god became a ruler over a specific tribe of humans, totaling thirteen. Here, the term tribe stands in for what we would recognize as a nation. The Council of 12 is formed with Zeus at the head of the Council for a total number of 13 individuals on the Council.

Someone pointed out that conversations about the exodus of the 13th on the show make it seem like that tribe left Kobol before the war and before the 12 tribes left for the colonies. Let me build on that premise a little.

For a time all was well and humanity prospered under the careful guidance of the immortal Lords. Then things started to go downhill and several of the Lords began to abuse their power. Human sacrifice is instituted as a way of satisfying some of the Lords bloodlust. Benevolent rulers become dictators and work to turn the human population into slaves. One Lord questions this and remembers a time when humanity worshipped a different theology. A belief in one god that was omnipotent, benevolent, and had unconditional love for all of his creations. This Lord begins to teach this and sways five of the other 12 to believe as he/she does. The remaining seven kill the rebel and banish his tribe to space. This tribe flees to the only place left in the universe they can go..Earth. After their departure, thing on Kobol go from bad to worse as the five make war against the seven. Eventually, humanity rises up against their gods and total war is declared. Humans begin to flee Kobol for the worlds of the 12 colonies that had been discovered and settled after the 13th Tribe was banished. Finally, nuclear bombs are used and Kobol is left in ruin totally destroyed. The tales of the destruction of Kobol are written down by the high priests of the colonies in the religious texts as voices of warning to be passed down for generations. Worship of the Lords of Kobol and its subsequent religion becomes the common faith of the 12 colonies for next thousands of years, with the faith of the rebellious Lord stripped from the scriptures by the high priests so as to maintain the status quo.

The governments of the each of the 12 colonies evolved from the principals taught and espoused by the the Lord of Kobol that ruled over that tribe of human. Which is why the laws governing each world can have such significant differences.

Okay, I could keep going with this and talk about what is going on with the whole visions thing, but I am stop here. Itís late and my brain is turning to mush.

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Michiel
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quote:
Originally posted by ReddwarfVII:
Just so you all know, my overriding belief is that BSG is taking place in our future. I can totally see a Matrix like or Terminator like future causing mankind to flee to the stars. I am not connecting Kobol with Kolob simply because I am working from the assumption that the current BSG team have kept only the premise of the original and jetisoned most of the original backstory. Plus, I have always assumed that Kolob is a spiritual plane of existance, not necessarily an actual planet in the cosmos. So much of what makes up my theories are going to be working from those assumptions on my part.

Well, in "Flesh and Bones", Leoben did say that Kobol is "the birthplace of us all". What about that?
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James Tiberius Kirk
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Just so everybody knows, there's info floating around online that says SciFi has no plans to cancel the series, yet.

--j_k

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ReddwarfVII
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quote:
Originally posted by Michiel: Well, in "Flesh and Bones", Leoben did say that Kobol is "the birthplace of us all". What about that? [/QB]
There is lots of reasons why he would say that, but the problem with Leoben is that you don't know when he's lying and when he's not. He could be lying, or it could be that the knowledge that human civilization started on Earth has been lost over the centuries. That's a tough one. The one question I would ask is was he referring to all of mankind or just the colonists? If you follow my theory above you could argue that Kobol was the birthplace of their current civilization. That civilization continued to the colonies without much change. Therefore the birthplace of "US" all.

However, what has still got me going is why did they even know about Earth in the first place? Then, why did the 13th tribe choose to go there? With the 12 colonies being so close, Earth seems like an really far journey for an entire tribe of humanity to go just to colonize a planet. Also, why did they name it Earth? Where's the connection?

Also, all of the "clues" of the 13th tribe journey. If Earth wasn't place of myth and legend, but just a planet they discovered like the colonies, then how come they didn't know where it was? Adding to that, the information from the show seems to point to the idea that the 13th tribe, just like BSG group, is following a series of signs and clues from the scriptures to find it. Again, why is Earth a subject of myth and legend?

Also, if Kobol is the place for the birthplace of humanity, why would the Tomb of Athena have a map to Earth's location that wasn't an actual map? Why did Athena have a tomb? Could she have been the rebellous Lord of Kobol?

Then there's the journey of the 13th tribe. Why in the world would they leave religious markers behind for others to follow? Marking a path with religious symbols does not say to me that they were going to settle a virgin world. It tells me that they were on a pilgrimage to Mecca as it were. Seems like if Earth was a colony of Kobol, it would not have any more religious significance than say Caprica. But on a pilgrimage, they would be following clues and signs from ancient scripture and leaving behind clues, signs, and markers for other pilgrams. Looks like the 13th tribe believed that others would follow them and make this pilgrimage to the holy land.

See? Too many questions. For me the clues just are not adding up that humanity came from Kobol and then settles Earth.

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ReddwarfVII
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quote:
Originally posted by James Tiberius Kirk:
[qb] Just so everybody knows, there's info floating around online that says SciFi has no plans to cancel the series, yet.

--j_k

Honestly, with all of the critical acclaim that BSG has gotten, do you really think that the network that brought us Stargate and let it go for 10 seasons, is going to give up on its best show to date so easily?

They're not stupid. BSG gets alot of people tuning to Scifi network. Plus the download following it has on iTunes makes up for the lackluster ratings. Nielson is not taking the downloads in account with their ratings. When you add up both, Scifi knows they've got a keeper. I bet that Scifi will have BSG for as long as RM and company can stand to keep cranking out episodes.

BSG has gotten so much attention because it's so good. The show is being graded by some high standards. Stargate never would have withstood this much scrutiny by the mainstream.

Don't get me wrong, I do love Stargate and even Alantis, but not enough to spend 3 bucks every week downloading the episodes, then go out and spend 40 bucks on the DVD's of the full season. That's why there will be a 4th season, a 5th, and any more that RM and company want to do.

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ReddwarfVII
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However, if they do cancel it, I hope that they at least answer a bunch of questions before they sign off. That would really suck we were to be left forever hanging.
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Michiel
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Well. Surely all episodes of Season 3 have been shot already. Also, any remaining commercial value for the creators lies in not revealing future story lines (since "you never know"). Therefore, if there is no Episode 4 we will most likely never be know how they wanted to handle certain issues.
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Michiel
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To be honest, I very much hope that a full season 4 gets made (which would also mean we'd get to see the Film-straight-to-DVD that is supposed to play "in between" 3 and 4), but that SciFi announces beforehand that it will be the final season.

I think is the best set of circumstances to prod Ron Moore and his people to produce a splendid send-off that does justice to the story itself. If it were to go "on and on", they will have to close down plot lines, invent new ones whole-cloth, some main actors will want to leave, and the whole thing will just become "yet another series".

It would be terrible if this excellent series gets shot down before its time, and the end of this season is definitely not it. But we'll get the best and most honest story if there is an end in sight, both for the writers and for the actors.

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Telperion the Silver
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Mrs. Ron has said on the Scifi.com forums that SciFi has no intention of canceling BSG. No fear! Season 4 will be made. [Smile]
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ReddwarfVII
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A little bit of good news from www.syfyportal.com:

David Howe, executive vice president of SciFi Channel, which produces and airs the 1970s series remake, told iFMagazine that the reason why the fate of "Battlestar Galactica" hasn't been announced yet is because the network is on a time schedule for such decisions, and they usually wait until the deadline to announce it. But either way, he would be "shocked" if the show as not picked up for a fourth season.

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B34N
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[Party]
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ReddwarfVII
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Just four more days!!! So...does anyone want to go out on a limb and say what the Eye of Jupiter actually is?

Me? Looking at the temple I say a beam that emmanates from the middle spire in the temple that literally points to earth or the next marker. What do you all think?

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Michiel
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I want to engage in endless speculation about the show being renewed or not, but it's certainly not a sure thing.
There is a spoiler in the link:
http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070117/ART18/701170375

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Carrie
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I think it's that supernova thingy that's about to blow everybody up.
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ReddwarfVII
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quote:
Originally posted by Michiel:
I want to engage in endless speculation about the show being renewed or not, but it's certainly not a sure thing.

I would disagree. This is why.

"Despite stellar reviews, ratings are down, not necessarily because fewer people are watching, but because so many viewers are watching on DVR or via iTunes downloads, not on cable."

The thing is, they know that people are tuning in. They're are making their money off of the show. The iTunes downloads alone are offsetting some of the ad revenue that they are not getting because the ratings are down. Scifi's problem is not getting more viewers. Their problem is that not enough of those viewers have cable or are home to tune on the night that BSG is on. The move to Sunday is a smart one even with more competition. There simply more viewers at home on Sunday Night to watch television than there are on Fridays.

My prediction? Season 4 is on its way and a significant ratings increase.

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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by ReddwarfVII:
Just four more days!!! So...does anyone want to go out on a limb and say what the Eye of Jupiter actually is?

It's an actual eye. Inside the center pillar of the temple, there's a chamber that holds the cryogenically frozen eye of Jupiter, who was one of the Five (and one of the Final Five, of course).

When they find the eye, it will blink in Morse code, and tell them the answers to every plot line that remains to be answered.

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ReddwarfVII
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quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
It's an actual eye. Inside the center pillar of the temple, there's a chamber that holds the cryogenically frozen eye of Jupiter, who was one of the Five (and one of the Final Five, of course).

When they find the eye, it will blink in Morse code, and tell them the answers to every plot line that remains to be answered.

[ROFL] [ROFL] [ROFL] [ROFL]

Bing! Bing! Bing! Bing!

And we have a winner!!!!!

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ReddwarfVII
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quote:
Originally posted by Carrie:
I think it's that supernova thingy that's about to blow everybody up.

Actually I've been wondering if the human fleet will be able to FTL jump far enough away to not be hit by the blast.
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Dan_raven
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My thoughts:

Note. I have never seen an episode. My only information is what I've read here. Be that as it may, I have two ideas.

1) Everybody is a Ceylon. The only survivors allowed were secret Ceylon agents who have their true secret identity hidden from themselves. The Ceylons are trying to decide if they should 1) Work harder to bring these soldiers home, and use the ridiculous "we want our kids" plot to do it, or 2) allow them to find Earth so that it too can be wiped clean of the human infestation.

2) THe "Five" were four dedicated and resourceful Gods of Kobol who love Humanity, and the Evil Ceylon who wanted to be the Ceylon of all Ceylons. They all have a human appearance, and have traveled with the humans attempting to guide their destiny.

At least one good "god" tried hard to limit mankinds thirst for technology, hoping to allow them time to develop a deeper, more spiritual side.

One other good god decided that mankind needed to be prepared to fight the evil god. When he realized how the Evil god had manuevered man into making Ceylons again, he realized it was time to become personally involved in what he knew would be a fight.

This God, this one of the great 5 Ceylons, is Adama.

Which of course, makes Apollo one of the great half-breeds that are the ultimate goal of the Ceylons.

The Ceylons are searching for their God, because he happened to put into thier development code this desire. He/she believes that they will become the Ceylon's one god upon discovery, and all the rest will be brought down.

He also realized the power of the racial mixture, and went about creating his own tools/children.

One of these is Balthar.

(This creates a nice duality/competition between not Adama and Balthar, but Apollo and Balthar. Further, we've already seen part of this as Apollo's female friend--Starbuck and Balthar's have fought.).

I would not be surprised if the President is also a child of one of "the Five". It could explain how the Ceylon blood cured her cancer.

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Jon Boy
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Get with the times, Dan. It's called Sri Lanka now, not Ceylon. [Razz]
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Telperion the Silver
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Just one more day!
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Carrie
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26 hours and change!!!
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ReddwarfVII
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Yahoo TV has got a couple preview videos that I have not seen anywhere else. One is a promo the other is a sneak peak. Click here if you would like to see them.
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Michiel
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I think I can manage to wait, butonly barely:)

ALso HBO has Rome tonight, so although too much TV is bad for the soul, Sundays will have to be an exception!

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B34N
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less than 3 hours my time but will have to wait for it to be available via iTunes. Hmmmm, new BSG episodes, can't wait! [Big Grin]
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