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All I can say after this episode is... if they're going to end with the moral of the story being "have faith and believe in destiny" (it's not entirely clear whether this will be the case, but it sure looks that way) they better come up with a way better definition of faith other than "pushing a button because a guy in a video told you to" and "doing whatever the various people who have all tried to kill you tell you to."
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1. Jack, Kate and Hurley were some how teleported from the plane space/time to the island surface, roughly 30 years ago and are now in the same time frame as Jin and presumably the other time jumpers.
Well, they're in the same general time, but Jin looks settled, almost like he's made his peace in that time period -- he's like a scout/guard, maybe, a sentinel of sorts -- the one who goes out and deals with strangeness in the jungle. His hair is longer, he's clean-shaven and has a new outfit, no less. It seems to be after we last left the Time Hoppers.
quote:I'm guessing Sayid has gone commando in the forest.
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About Jake, Kate, and Hurley being separated in time (presumably) from Sayid and Sun:
They are also 3 of the 4 that Michael was sent to bring to the Others in Season 2. (Sawyer was the 4th.) My theory at that time was that they were picked because they were the ones who had seen visions on the island.
Jack--his dad, early in season 1 Hurley--the guy from the asylum (who wasn't really there in the asylum) Kate--the horse Sawyer--saw Kate's horse
I could be completely mistaken, but I don't think that Sayid or Sun have seen any visions. I know Sayid heard voices--but no actual manifestations. Since season 2, of course, Ako saw his brother and Locke has seen Christian. (I know Locke saw Boone, too, but I totally don't remember when. I think it was Season 3.)
Just a thought that that might help explain why those three were (apparently) teleported out in the bright light/ time warp with which we have become oh-so-familiar.
It does fit the theory that the island can manifest itself as a person/ animal that is meaningful to the person the island wants to communicate with--that is, that Jacob/ the Island told the Others in season 2 to collect these 4 people for a specific reason--either because they *could* see island-visions, or because for some other reason the island picked them and was creating visions for them. And now the island is taking these 3 (Hurley, Kate, Jack) to where they need to be to join back up with Sawyer, the 4th in the original group of vision-seers/ Others'-kidnappees.
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As for Ben and his motivations--I think it was purely the mention of Hawking that made him change his mind and kill Locke.
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Ben and Widmore--I love the fact that each uses almost the exact same language to try to convince Locke that he is the one who has the island's best interests at heart!
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Strider--I love reading your theories. I figured my island-is-Jacob theory had been mentioned somewhere earlier, but I didn't remember reading it, so I thought I'd throw it out there...again, apparently.
We do now have a possible reason for why the island/ Jacob would manifest as Christian Shepherd to John Locke--so he could tell John, "Say hi to my son"--which seems to be what has convinced Jack that he (Jack) does in fact need to go back to the island.
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quote:We do now have a possible reason for why the island/ Jacob would manifest as Christian Shepherd to John Locke--so he could tell John, "Say hi to my son"--which seems to be what has convinced Jack that he (Jack) does in fact need to go back to the island.
Except if he really wanted to ensure that eventuality, he would've been clearer and spelled it out for him. Locke might not have even thought another thing of it -- it was such a throw-away line.
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quote:As for Ben and his motivations--I think it was purely the mention of Hawking that made him change his mind and kill Locke.
*headdesk* Seriously, people, you can practically see the gears turning in Ben's head when Locke starts talking about Jin and Sun!! I'm not saying the mention of Eloise wasn't a contributing factor, just that it's not what STARTED Ben thinking about taking Locke out himself.
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quote:Originally posted by Leonide: I don't know. His reaction came so quickly after the Eloise mention that I can't imagine it was that, or *only* that. Ben had a similar look on his face when Locke mentioned Jin being alive.
posted
OK, so I'm not a clip-rewatcher. But when I watched it last night, Ben's reaction to hearing about Jin being alive struck me as an entirely different kind of reaction. As in--"interesting! How will I use this information?"--versus--"whoops, now I have to change my plans completely and kill John now that I know he knows about Hawking."
It is entirely possible that upon re-watching I would change my mind. Nonetheless, Ben's reaction to the news about Jin didn't set off my uh-oh radar, while the Hawking thing did.
Plus--why would Ben have to murder Locke if Jin is alive? Or if Locke knows that Jin is alive? Or even if Locke is planning to tell Sun that Jin is dead and not to go back to the island?
Whereas we've had an indication earlier that Ben is very disturbed when he finds people have connections to Hawking that he didn't know about--i.e. Faraday being her son.
On a side note, I just want to say how happy I was when Jin turned up alive.
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I think this show brings out that "why don't you see where I'm coming from!?" exasperation in people. I remember an argument I had with someone over the nature of the episodes once the LaLosties left the Island...before we knew what was going on specifically. I was convinced that the things happening on the island were still the primary events of the story, while the activities of the LaLosties were "flash forwards," different from the "flashbacks" we'd been getting before then. I was chastised for using the term "flash forward." It was a point of particular contention, involving arguments about the nature of the show's narrative structure and how liable that was to just up and change...I remember being pretty upset that the other person wasn't seeing eye-to-eye with me!
edit: also, all this Ben talk, trying to decipher the minutiae of his reactions, reminds me of the hoopla (hoopla!) revolving around the look in Dumbledore's eye when Harry told him about the blood transferance in Goblet of Fire. I guess we'll know when we know, eh? Posts: 3516 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Liz, the only thing about that theory is that Jack wasn't on Jacob's list(Mr. Friendly said this to Ben), implying that Ben added Jack himself for his own selfish reasons of having Jack fix his tumor.
Other than that it's an interesting theory about why those 3 flashed and the others didn't.
As for Christian Shepard, I still think it's actually Christian Shepard. I think made even more plausible by the fact that the second dead body that we know of that's been brought to the Island has just been brought back to life.
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edit: nah, nevermind, i don't like that theory at all.
edit: although, I would like to put in my vote for that not being Christian Shepherd, for a number of reasons. (or, well, two!)
1) He "couldn't" help Locke stand after he fell down the well. 2) He's sneaky and mysterious, and I just don't see the "real" Christian Shepherd that we were introduced to in Jack's flashbacks as choosing to haunt the Island rather than reunite with his son and act like, well, you know -- a Human?
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Yep, totally a "why don't you see where I'm coming from!?" moment! XD
Just to add a little something to my point, before Hawking was mentioned and Ben made to strangle Locke, I had already commented to my boyfriend the overactivity of Ben's eyes and the expression on his face. It led me, at any rate, to believe that's when Ben realized Locke wasn't going to be so easy to manipulate on that point yet Sun had to return (a cause Ben was dedicated to). He wasn't going to let Locke mess up the plans. Perhaps he wouldn't have killed Locke right then if it wasn't for the mention of Hawking, but he was certainly started to entertain the possibility then, in my opinion.
Of course, with things like that, it does come down to interpretation, at least until some later episode confirms one theory and disproves another.
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1. Jack, Kate and Hurley were some how teleported from the plane space/time to the island surface, roughly 30 years ago and are now in the same time frame as Jin and presumably the other time jumpers.
Well, they're in the same general time, but Jin looks settled, almost like he's made his peace in that time period -- he's like a scout/guard, maybe, a sentinel of sorts -- the one who goes out and deals with strangeness in the jungle. His hair is longer, he's clean-shaven and has a new outfit, no less. It seems to be after we last left the Time Hoppers.
quote:I'm guessing Sayid has gone commando in the forest.
Um, yum?
I never said they were in the same time frame in which we last saw the time hoppers -- just same time frame.
I'm going to speculate that the time jumping stopped when Locke pushed the wheel back on its axis. At that moment the Time Hoppers were in Dharma time and they have been stuck there ever since. We really don't have a clue how long but I'm betting on the same length of time that Locke spent away from the island -- so a few weeks not a few years.
I'm really torn between speculating that Sayid and Sun are in the same time frame with Hurley, Jack and Kate and that they are with the rest of the plane passengers. It will be much easier to explain if the Oceanic 5 stay together than if they are separated in time. If they are in yet a third time, it will simply be too much.
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Found an awesome blog that goes into intricate detail about the other Ulysses references within Lost, most of which I didn't even know about. Very, very cool stuff. Posts: 3516 | Registered: Sep 2002
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"...same time frame in which we last saw the time hoppers" as opposed to the same time frame they ended up in (presumably when Jin is). Does that make more sense?
Edit: Had to read it more than once myself. Posts: 691 | Registered: Nov 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Traceria: Yep, totally a "why don't you see where I'm coming from!?" moment! XD
By this do you mean "why don't you agree with me?" Because I think you've expressed your theory clearly and people see where you're coming from. Doesn't mean they agree with you, though.
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Sometimes I wonder if people read through all the comments, ya know? Not that we should expect everyone to do so all the time (sometimes it's just not possible), but when a reason isn't mentioned for why a theory isn't considered or, more of a stretch, accepted, I can't help but wonder. Call it a personal flaw if you will.
Edit: Either that or all that talking over me my one college roommate did scarred me for life. Posts: 691 | Registered: Nov 2008
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jesus, you guys post quick. I my last post came like 5 posts after I actually started writing it, and now i come back and there's even more!
quote:I think this show brings out that "why don't you see where I'm coming from!?" exasperation in people. I remember an argument I had with someone over the nature of the episodes once the LaLosties left the Island...before we knew what was going on specifically. I was convinced that the things happening on the island were still the primary events of the story, while the activities of the LaLosties were "flash forwards," different from the "flashbacks" we'd been getting before then. I was chastised for using the term "flash forward." It was a point of particular contention, involving arguments about the nature of the show's narrative structure and how liable that was to just up and change...I remember being pretty upset that the other person wasn't seeing eye-to-eye with me! [Smile]
I still hate the term flash forward, though it is sometimes useful to use that terminology to indicate what time frame you're talking about. Down with flash forwards!
quote:
quote:Originally posted by Leonide: edit: although, I would like to put in my vote for that not being Christian Shepherd, for a number of reasons. (or, well, two!)
1) He "couldn't" help Locke stand after he fell down the well. 2) He's sneaky and mysterious, and I just don't see the "real" Christian Shepherd that we were introduced to in Jack's flashbacks as choosing to haunt the Island rather than reunite with his son and act like, well, you know -- a Human?
I don't think he's Christian Shepard in the same way that Locke is still Locke. I think locke has been fully brought back to life(body and spirit), while Christian has been brought back, but not to the same level(maybe only spirit). I think he's more "real" than the other visions on the Island. But like you say, he couldn't touch Locke and things like that indicate he's not fully physically there. Maybe that's why Christian Shepard needs his shoes! To be fully reincarnated.
quote:I'm going to speculate that the time jumping stopped when Locke pushed the wheel back on its axis. At that moment the Time Hoppers were in Dharma time and they have been stuck there ever since. We really don't have a clue how long but I'm betting on the same length of time that Locke spent away from the island -- so a few weeks not a few years.
I agree with the first half of your theory Rabbit. I think that last turn of the wheel jumped them and then they stayed put wherever they ended up. But I assume they've been there for a long time. For some reasons not the least of which is because in the preview for next week when they had that whole cheesy bit that made me want to puke about the "moment you've all been waiting for" and has sawywer say something along the lines of "can you get over someone after 3 years?"
quote:I'm really torn between speculating that Sayid and Sun are in the same time frame with Hurley, Jack and Kate and that they are with the rest of the plane passengers. It will be much easier to explain if the Oceanic 5 stay together than if they are separated in time. If they are in yet a third time, it will simply be too much.
I don't think they are in a third time. But i would put them at the same time as the rest of the plane passengers. It would explain who the woman is that took the boat with Lapidus and ran off. What other woman would do that? Is Lapidus that smooth of a player?
quote:Sometimes I wonder if people read through all the comments, ya know? Not that we should expect everyone to do so all the time (sometimes it's just not possible), but when a reason isn't mentioned for why a theory isn't considered or, more of a stretch, accepted, I can't help but wonder. Call it a personal flaw if you will.
I'm with you Traceria. I obviously post a whole lot of speculation. And i'm fine with people disagreeing with me, and having different theories. But for instance, when i disagree with someone's theory i usually point out specifically why, and state my reasons for supporting my theory. When someone posits their own theory without addressing why they disagree with yours it can make you think they didn't even read yours, regardless of if they did or not. Especially if a point you made would make their theory nonviable(for instance, you don't need to agree with my theory of the monster de-otherizing juliet, but if you disagree(general you) i'd like to hear thoughts about the way in which the monster was interacting with Juliet and what else that would indicate). Though I'm happy we all remain friendly and civil here. I have a friend who posts at the "lost forum" and she says people there are pretty vicious.
Also, like you say, there's just so much posting that goes on it's hard to respond to everything. I'm sure i miss plenty. So let me say sorry if I've seemed like I've ignored anyone's posts! I read everything.
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Look. I read the first post Traceria posted about Ben & his motivations for killing Locke at 10 AM, then I taught two classes, then I read the new posts, then I posted.
As soon as you wrote back (huffily) I responded (not huffily). I will admit that I didn't go back to your original 9ish AM post and re-read it for your theory that Ben killed Locke so he wouldn't tell Sun Jin was dead. I went back, saw your response to The Rabbit about the look in Ben's eyes, and responded to that.
Please, can we have reasonable expectations? I'd like to continue to participate in this thread but it's really not worth it if I have to worry about hurting people's feelings every time I post and don't respond directly to their theory.
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quote:Maybe that's why Christian Shepard needs his shoes!
quote:Is Lapidus that smooth of a player?
Not without the beard, he isn't. Pardon me, I just got to a new 'Age' in Myst and am a little giddy (and silly) because of it. Actually, I'm with you, I have a feeling Sun is at least in the same time as the other passengers and Lapidus. Jury's out on Sayid. We haven't been given enough info to make a decent guess, but I agree with you that it's either the time of the other passengers or the same time as Jack, Kate and Hurley.
I hope no one thought I was being nasty. It was totally a "Did anyone hear me?" moment, and apparently some did. *sheepish grin* Glad to hear things are usually friendlier here than on the "lost forum." That sounds rough!
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No one's really mentioned it but I was really happy to see Walt and Locke reunite. I just had a big smile on my face during that whole meeting.
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quote:Originally posted by Liz B: Look. I read the first post Traceria posted about Ben & his motivations for killing Locke at 10 AM, then I taught two classes, then I read the new posts, then I posted.
As soon as you wrote back (huffily) I responded (not huffily). I will admit that I didn't go back to your original 9ish AM post and re-read it for your theory that Ben killed Locke so he wouldn't tell Sun Jin was dead. I went back, saw your response to The Rabbit about the look in Ben's eyes, and responded to that.
Please, can we have reasonable expectations? I'd like to continue to participate in this thread but it's really not worth it if I have to worry about hurting people's feelings every time I post and don't respond directly to their theory.
I'm not quite sure what to say to that except, "I'm sorry." I was posting again while you were, it seems, and had just finished typing, "I hope no one thought I was being nasty." So, yeah. Sorry.
I don't know if you'll take my word for it or not, but I didn't intend it to sound huffy. Maybe a little exasperated, but not huffy.
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Guess it's my turn to be huffy. (Or exasperated...whichever). I'm sorry too. And yes, we did post right at the same time. Thanks--and of course I'll take your word for it.
Strider, I had forgotten (or never noticed because I was so wedded to my own theory for why those 4 were taken) that we know that Ben added Jack. They're still the only ones who've seen the visions, though...right? Locke & Clare have seen Christian, but Locke seems to be a special case since he was, you know, dead--and I think Clare was already dead when she saw Christian, which I think PPs have mentioned earlier in this thread. I can't think of any other reason why she would leave Aaron. Hm. I'm babbling. Here are the other Losties who I remember as having seen island visions:
Clare--Christian (Clare already dead?) Locke--Boone, Christian, others Ako--his brother (Ako now dead, killed by smoke monster/island)
Am I forgetting anyone? Because depending on who/ when, it would totally blow my theory out of the water.
re: Christian holding Aaron/ not helping Locke
Christian says he "can't" help, right? So maybe instead of that being evidence of him being non-corporeal, it's just evidence of his limitations in how he's allowed to help Locke...
This is from much earlier:
quote: We do now have a possible reason for why the island/ Jacob would manifest as Christian Shepherd to John Locke--so he could tell John, "Say hi to my son"--which seems to be what has convinced Jack that he (Jack) does in fact need to go back to the island.
quote: Except if he really wanted to ensure that eventuality, he would've been clearer and spelled it out for him. Locke might not have even thought another thing of it -- it was such a throw-away line.
Yep. It's not great evidence. But I'm willing to consider it just because the island seems to be pretty tricky in how it gets people where it wants them. Things happen that are fate, or look like fate. I'm not convinced of the Christian=Jacob thing myself...but I'm still considering it.
For me, it seems to fit at least a little with the fact that Locke couldn't see Jacob when Ben (said he) could. I'm theorizing that that's because Jacob only takes one shape at a time, or only appears to one person at a time, in a shape that's right for that person in some way...but I could be forgetting a time when there were two people (I'm not counting Clare b/c I think she's dead, or at least deadish) who saw Christian at the same time.
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I agree with those who said it seemed like Ben killed Locke in immediate response to him mentioning Hawking. But I also think we should keep in mind that Ben likely knows that he'd be resurrected on the island. After all, it happened once before.
So, that means what Ben must be really concerned about is Locke meeting Hawking. It seems okay if Locke is alive on the island and knows about her, as long as he can't go visit her. Would she tell him something Ben doesn't want him to know?
My suspicion is that Jacob has been, in some sense, held hostage by both Widmore and Ben as they fight over the island. I think that's what Jacob meant when he asked Locke to "help me", which originally inspired Ben to kill Locke the first time. Something about the idea of Locke working directly with Jacob bothers Ben. And I think Jacob's intention in sending Locke to Hawking was in part that she give him information that would ultimately allow Locke to undo whatever Ben is doing. And I think when Ben realized Locke had been sent to Hawking, Ben realized what Jacob was doing. So, by killing Locke, he figured out a way to still save the island and get everyone to go back without allowing Locke to meet Hawking.
quote:I'm going to speculate that the time jumping stopped when Locke pushed the wheel back on its axis. At that moment the Time Hoppers were in Dharma time and they have been stuck there ever since. We really don't have a clue how long but I'm betting on the same length of time that Locke spent away from the island -- so a few weeks not a few years.
I agree that time stopped jumping, but I'd bet they've been there for about a year or two. I also bet we'll find out that Daniel has spent that time trying to figure out how to get themselves back to the right time period. And I bet that it is something that's going to require Jack, Kate, and Hurley to be there - which is why they had to be the ones that go back in time. And I also bet that Daniel's plan is somehow going to spark the electromagnetic "incident" at the Hatch that ultimately led the Dharma Initiative to require the numbers to be entered every so many minutes. And, perhaps, perhaps, Daniel's plan might also involve the nuclear bomb which was conveniently introduced for no yet-given reason earlier this season.
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quote:I don't think he's Christian Shepard in the same way that Locke is still Locke.
But the real question is, why would this be the case? Why would the island resurrect Christian differently than Locke?
Here's what I've been thinking about:
I think Ben planned all along to kill Locke. I don't think it was a last minute decision: the Jin/Sun thing is not enough impetus, and the Eloise thing happened too quickly -- I don't think Ben is that quick on the trigger.
My new theory is that Locke couldn't be allowed to kill himself...he needed to be murdered. Ben needed Locke dead as a substitute for Christian, but he also needed him not to have died by his own hand -- the frantic way Ben bashed in the door to stop Locke's suicide indicates that it wasn't all for show. He really couldn't afford to lose Locke that way.
Perhaps the island does resurrect, and resurrect in totality (aka Locke returning exactly as Locke, and not as some Monkey's-Paw-creepy-zombified Locke) but only depending on the manner of death?
At this point, we've been told Christian died of an alcohol-induced heart attack. This is a presumption, but it's possible to extrapolate that he drank himself to death voluntarily. Or, regardless of conscious intent, it might still count as suicide because he did it to himself. This might be the reason that he's only a little bit corporeal, at least enough to hold a baby, yet still not wholly (or even mostly) Christian Shephard.
Even Ben's remorseful "I will miss you" to Locke can be folded into that theory -- he may have known he could get Locke's body back to the island, but feared that he would not be traveling along and so wouldn't get to interact with John again. It's also possible that he means "I will miss you, John Locke, as I knew you" -- and that the island can't ressurrect without changing the essence of the people that it controls.
Maybe the Locke we're seeing isn't really entirely Locke anymore...where's the coffin? Was he transported in time, as well as space, away from the plane landing/crash site? Too many questions still!
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quote:Am I forgetting anyone? Because depending on who/ when, it would totally blow my theory out of the water.
Does Sawyer see Kate's horse? i don't remember that. I think Sayid sees Walt one of the times Shannon sees him. Boone had visions but only after locke drugged him. not sure about anyone else.
quote:My suspicion is that Jacob has been, in some sense, held hostage by both Widmore and Ben as they fight over the island. I think that's what Jacob meant when he asked Locke to "help me", which originally inspired Ben to kill Locke the first time. Something about the idea of Locke working directly with Jacob bothers Ben. And I think Jacob's intention in sending Locke to Hawking was in part that she give him information that would ultimately allow Locke to undo whatever Ben is doing. And I think when Ben realized Locke had been sent to Hawking, Ben realized what Jacob was doing. So, by killing Locke, he figured out a way to still save the island and get everyone to go back without allowing Locke to meet Hawking.
That's a really good speculation Tres.
quote:I agree that time stopped jumping, but I'd bet they've been there for about a year or two. I also bet we'll find out that Daniel has spent that time trying to figure out how to get themselves back to the right time period. And I bet that it is something that's going to require Jack, Kate, and Hurley to be there - which is why they had to be the ones that go back in time. And I also bet that Daniel's plan is somehow going to spark the electromagnetic "incident" at the Hatch that ultimately led the Dharma Initiative to require the numbers to be entered every so many minutes. And, perhaps, perhaps, Daniel's plan might also involve the nuclear bomb which was conveniently introduced for no yet-given reason earlier this season.
ditto here. Though I wouldn't necessarily bet on all the details being right, I think you're thinking along the right lines. Great idea about the incident. I had completely forgotten that an "incident" caused a leak in the containment of the electromagnetic anomaly.
Great questions Leonide. I have no answers, but you're right that there has to be a reason for difference between Locke's return to the Island and Christian's first arrival.
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Wow, I'm totally psyched about some of the thoughts shared above! Just the possibility that one or all of them might prove true has me grinning. The Exciting List: 1.
quote:I'm theorizing that that's because Jacob only takes one shape at a time, or only appears to one person at a time, in a shape that's right for that person in some way
Kind of along the lines of Doctor Who psychic paper or a Harry Potter universe boggert. 2. Tresopax's theory that Jacob is a captive and a possible plan on Jacob's part to connect Locke with Hawking. (Makes me wonder more about Hurley's ability to see/find the cabin and Jacob, too.) 3. Also like the idea that Faraday engineers all the hatch and number stuff. 4. Leonide's idea that Locke had to die but not at his own hand, though it doesn't go seamlessly with the Jacob/Hawking plan mentioned in #2, is still an intriguing thought!
quote:Originally posted by Leonide:
quote:I just got to a new 'Age' in Myst
By-the-by, which one? I love that game!
The Mechanical Age. Just acquired a copy of the Masterpiece (?) edition on Wednesday and got to bust it out last night. I started playing the original Myst when still in high school, but when I went off to college never finished it. My parents held onto it at home. *snap* So, yeah, I'm so excited to be playing it again, that it works at all, and that I made it to another age in one night! It's only a start, but it's something!
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So has it occurred to anyone so far that Jin's character, no matter what time he has now arrived in, may have been there long enough to speak English fluently? I have been amused at how quickly he has learned- going from not knowing a word after 80 days to full conversations after 120, but perhaps they can finally have his character speak reasonably easily? I have been getting tired of the constant "do you understand???" trope.
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quote:I really don't like the idea of causal loops and to be honest, don't completely understand them.
What about anything going on makes it a loop? Or implies these events keep repeating themselves in time? They only do that if you look at the events from the perspective of "Locke shows up on the island in the 50s and does stuff. then 50 years later he crashes on the island. then he goes back in time. then 50 years later he crashes". But that's only a trick of how we've been shown the events, the order in which we've been told this story. in my mind events in time happen. and that's it. they happen once and only once. how does someone get stuck in a causal loop? are they consciously aware of the iterations? so their bodies are always knew but their consciousnesses are old?
lets take the time jumping losties for example. let say they get Back to the Future™ and live out the rest of their days on the Island. So from their subjective experience, the lived their lives, crashed on the island, jumped around in time, got back to their present and lived the rest of their lives. from the island's point of view, these people appear on it at various points in time from the 1950s to the 2000s, and then at some point crash on the island. stay for 100 days. disappear. reappear. then live out their lives. sure, this is a hypothetical, and not likely where the show will go, but what bout these events indicate a loop that iterates?
I guess i want to separate the idea of a causal loop from the idea of iterations. I don't think a causal loop would imply that. I get that by time jumping their subjective future selves affect their present selves. Actions that happen in the past are integral to bringing about the future even though they are caused by these people in their subjective future. Here's some stuff from wikipedia:
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A predestination paradox, also called either a causal loop, or a causality loop and (less frequently) either a closed loop or closed time loop, is a paradox of time travel that is often used as a convention in science fiction. It exists when a time traveller is caught in a loop of events that "predestines" or "predates" them to travel back in time. Because of the possibility of influencing the past while time traveling, one way of explaining why history does not change is by saying that whatever has happened was meant to happen. A time traveller attempting to alter the past in this model, intentionally or not, would only be fulfilling their role in creating history as we know it, not changing it. Or that the time-traveler's personal knowledge of history already includes their future travels to their own experience of the past. Effectively, it means this: the time traveller is in the past, which means they were in the past before. Therefore, their presence is vital to the future, and they do something that causes the future to occur the same way that their knowledge of the future has already happened. It is very closely related to the ontological paradox and usually occurs at the same time.
The predestination paradox is in some ways the opposite of the grandfather paradox, the famous example of the traveller killing their own grandfather before his parent is conceived, thereby precluding his own travel to the past by canceling his own existence.
In physics, the Novikov self-consistency principle proposes that contradictory causal loops cannot form, but that consistent ones can. In a physical sense, a self-consistent causal loop of this kind is not actually a paradox because it produces a logically consistent result rather than a contradictory one. It is only perceived as a paradox because it goes against conventional expectations and assumptions about causality. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Emphasis mine. In this way I agree with a causal loop theory. But not an iteration theory. Iterations from my point of view are impossible.
Contradictory loops may have formed. That's where I wanted to go with my argument, but I didn't know how to say it. Someone dying while they still needed to have an effect on the future or past would be a contradictory loop. That's why Micheal couldn't die before he did on the Kahana. But this implies that something will have an effect on his past, maybe an encounter with Jin now that Jin is in the past.
I think I agree with you about iterations. In reference to your mention of how losties and the island experience each other, there really isn't a need for iterations when reality is relative.
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I'll be very happy if none of this leads to any angst. But I'm not such a fool as to think it won't. Posts: 3516 | Registered: Sep 2002
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The four toed statue was holding an ankh in each of its hands. An ankh is an egyptian symbol for eternal life. Paul(Amy's husband that was shot and killed by the Natives) had one as a necklace(ironic huh?).
We learned definitively(though I was pretty sure about this already) that the wheel already existed in the same time period as the four toed statue.
We also were learned definitely that the Losties had stopped jumping in time and lived on the Island for three years as Dharma people(no big surprise there either).
Pregnancies/Ben/Jacob
We know that Amy gave birth to a son in 1977. This tells us one very important thing. There was no problem with pregnant women on the Island at this point in time. I've always speculated that the problem with pregnancies had something to do with Ben. Ben was born during his mother's seventh month of pregnancy and she died giving birth to him, no women on the Island live past their seventh month of pregnancy. Ben may or may not be on the Island yet as a boy in 1977, but even if he is, he definitely doesn't have the close connection to the Island that he does as an adult(leader of the others, communicating with Jacob).
One other aspect of this is worth speculating about. They didn't tell us the name of the son that Horace and Amy have. I'll give anyone 5-1 odds that the baby's name is Jacob. It just seems right, and add to that the fact that Horace is the one that built Jacob's cabin in the first place. Another connection, but one that may be stretching things a bit more, is that Horace is the one that found Roger Linus and helped him when Ben was born, it seems like there may be some sort of important connection there as well(between Jacob and Ben). I never quite figured out if it was an unconscious thing or a conscious thing, but something about Ben's history and his connection to the Island and control of Jacob I always figured was relevant to the deaths of the pregnant women.
IF this connection turns out to be true, an interesting twist on this is that Juliet would be the person who delivers Jacob, who is then later brought to the Island to solve the mystery of the dying mothers which is caused by this relationship/connection between Jacob and Ben.
Also, in terms of bible references, Benjamin is the son of Jacob. That's one connection but a more interesting story is the one between Jacob and his twin brother Esau who are eternally struggling against each other. Jacob is the more simple man and Esau is the hunter. Jacob ends up stealing Esau's birthright by tricking their father Isaac. Anyway, i won't dwell on this, I doubt there's a literal connection, but I thought it was somewhat interesting.
ooh, I just had an interesting thought. Which Losties are currently in 1977? Sawyer, Juliet, Jin, Faraday, Miles and now Jack, Kate, and Hurley. Let's say I'm right about the baby being Jacob. Depending on how long they stay stuck in the past, Jacob may know these people as a child. EVERYONE on Jacob's list is now existing in 1977 Dharma time. Strike out Faraday and Miles since they're not on the Island when the list is made. And take out Juliet since she's an Other at that point in time. And you're left with Jin being the only Lostie in 1977 that doesn't end up on Jacob's list. Interesting stuff, though all dependent on the assumption that Horace and Amy's son is Jacob.
Some questions/problems:
Faraday sees what we assume is young Charlotte on the Island in 1974. This is either a continuity error by the show or there is something else going on here. Ben's information on Charlotte states she was born in 1980. She looks to be about 4 years old in 1974 which would put her birth around 1970. A 10 year difference is pretty hefty. So what's going on?
We know that Ben was born in the early 1960s, and came to the Island at around the age of 10. This would put him on the Island in the mid 1970s, which would mean he most likely is on the Island as a boy when Sawyer and gang are with the Dharma initiative. Do you think they ever interact?
Since it was Locke's fixing of the wheel that ended the time jumping on the Island, what is the importance of the O6 all coming back? While the Losties are in the wrong time, they're all at least safe. What is the big danger to the Island that Hawking and Ben are worried about if it doesn't have to do with the time jumping? Does it have to do with the impending war? Locke tried to convince the O6 to come back because when he left, everyone was still in serious trouble as far as he knew. So his motives were at least somewhat altruistic if misguided. But is Hawking's purpose in getting the O6 back just more manipulation(we've speculated this before) to serve her own ends? I never really thought about the fact the time jumping didn't seem to be hurting the Island itself, only the people jumping around in time on it.
We still haven't seen a peep from the other Losties(Rose, Bernard, etc...) since the time jumping began. We can only assume they're in the 70s now as well. But what are they doing?
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Good food for thought. I kept thinking "no, the baby is too young to be Ben or Locke." I did speculate that it could be Jacob, but didn't really afford it much credence.
You make a persuasive arguement, Fry.[/Bender]
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quote:We still haven't seen a peep from the other Losties(Rose, Bernard, etc...) since the time jumping began. We can only assume they're in the 70s now as well. But what are they doing?
But Sawyer et al have been searching the island grid by grid for three years. If Rose/Bernard et al were on the island in that time period it seems highly unlikely that they would not have found them. So I'm guessing that they were either killed, died of jumping sickness or for some reason did not end up in the same time period after the last jump.
Last time we saw the Rose/Bernard group they were fleeing from the flaming arrows. Sawyer yield out for them to meet at the creek where Sawyer et al were captured by "others". Chances are that group was scattered and never regrouped so all three of the above may have happened to some fraction of the group.
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quote:Good food for thought. I kept thinking "no, the baby is too young to be Ben or Locke." I did speculate that it could be Jacob, but didn't really afford it much credence.
Well, we know that Ben and Locke were both born off Island. For Ben we know both of his parents. Emily is his mom who dies during childbirth and Roger is his dad who he ends up coming to the Island with Ben as a boy at Horace's invitation. Locke's mom is also named Emily, and I'm not sure if we're supposed to assume Cooper is Locke's biological father or if that was all one big scam or not. Both Ben and Locke were born in the 6th or 7th month of pregnancy, the difference being that Locke's mom lived.
Anyway, half way through the episode i yelled out, "the baby is Jacob!!!", it was only afterwords that I started putting together reasons to support it. The only thing that bothers me about this is that I'm really attached to my theory about Jacob being some essence of the Island trapped and manifested. I've always been against it being an actual person. But as of now it seems to fit.
good point Rabbit. If that's the case I hope my speculation about Rose and Bernard being holed up in the Cave is correct, and that they're Adam and Eve. This would only work if they died during the 1950s jump though, and if Faraday is correct about why certain people get the jumping sickness sooner than others then Rose and Bernard would have been at the same level as Sawyer in their nosebleed progression, and it would rule them out from dying from the jumping sickness.
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quote:Originally posted by Strider: She looks to be about 4 years old in 1974 which would put her birth around 1970. A 10 year difference is pretty hefty. So what's going on?
Given your great ideas you couldn't figure that out? Well, not like she couldn't just time travel as a young child.... hey... wait. Yes she can, all they need to do is slip the wheel again, which I find plausible.
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I still don't see it with Charlotte. If there was time jumping in the 1970s would every single Dharma person be involved or just Charlotte? It doesn't make sense for just Charlotte to time jump and not anyone else. But if it's everyone, there would probably be mention of it at some point in the Dharma mythology right? I mean, are you saying that the whole dharma initiative jumps forward 10 years? Maybe Ben's information is wrong. Maybe they falsified documents for Charlotte after they left the Island.
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We know that Amy gave birth to a son in 1977. This tells us one very important thing. There was no problem with pregnant women on the Island at this point in time. I've always speculated that the problem with pregnancies had something to do with Ben. Ben was born during his mother's seventh month of pregnancy and she died giving birth to him, no women on the Island live past their seventh month of pregnancy. Ben may or may not be on the Island yet as a boy in 1977, but even if he is, he definitely doesn't have the close connection to the Island that he does as an adult(leader of the others, communicating with Jacob).
One other aspect of this is worth speculating about. They didn't tell us the name of the son that Horace and Amy have. I'll give anyone 5-1 odds that the baby's name is Jacob. It just seems right, and add to that the fact that Horace is the one that built Jacob's cabin in the first place. Another connection, but one that may be stretching things a bit more, is that Horace is the one that found Roger Linus and helped him when Ben was born, it seems like there may be some sort of important connection there as well(between Jacob and Ben). I never quite figured out if it was an unconscious thing or a conscious thing, but something about Ben's history and his connection to the Island and control of Jacob I always figured was relevant to the deaths of the pregnant women.
IF this connection turns out to be true, an interesting twist on this is that Juliet would be the person who delivers Jacob, who is then later brought to the Island to solve the mystery of the dying mothers which is caused by this relationship/connection between Jacob and Ben.
Also, in terms of bible references, Benjamin is the son of Jacob. That's one connection but a more interesting story is the one between Jacob and his twin brother Esau who are eternally struggling against each other. Jacob is the more simple man and Esau is the hunter. Jacob ends up stealing Esau's birthright by tricking their father Isaac. Anyway, i won't dwell on this, I doubt there's a literal connection, but I thought it was somewhat interesting.
ooh, I just had an interesting thought. Which Losties are currently in 1977? Sawyer, Juliet, Jin, Faraday, Miles and now Jack, Kate, and Hurley. Let's say I'm right about the baby being Jacob. Depending on how long they stay stuck in the past, Jacob may know these people as a child. EVERYONE on Jacob's list is now existing in 1977 Dharma time. Strike out Faraday and Miles since they're not on the Island when the list is made. And take out Juliet since she's an Other at that point in time. And you're left with Jin being the only Lostie in 1977 that doesn't end up on Jacob's list. Interesting stuff, though all dependent on the assumption that Horace and Amy's son is Jacob.
Except that they mentioned that she missed the submarine to go to the mainland to have the baby, meaning the problem does exist and that this baby has somehow defied the particular "rules" of the island. Which actually makes the baby all the more special.
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hmmm...I missed that. But there are a few things worth mentioning about that. He says that pregnant women usually go back to the mainland to deliver but doesn't say why. So I don't know that we should assume it's because women die on the island. What's more, the calamity that affects the pregnant women on the Island affects by killing them before their third trimester, taking effect some time in the second trimester. Amy's baby was born only about two weeks early(according to Lostpedia, i don't remember if this was stated during the episode, apparently i wasn't paying much attention during that whole part of the show!) which would mean if whatever affects all the pregnant women is around in the 70s, it's vastly different from what Juliet is brought to the Island for and what we're led to believe is happening in the 2000s. I think it'd be safer to assume there's a different reason for them to travel back to the mainland, like maybe better doctors? Though I guess that just begs the question, why don't they have any competent doctors? And why would they send women 9 months pregnant out on submarines?
I think the rest of the post is still relevant though, regardless of what we find out about the pregnancies.
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