I'm going to be busy tonight so let me post now while I have a chance.
To see the Cylon civil war really get going was awesome! I'm dying to see this central resurrection Hub too. Is it a station/ship or on a planet?
The problems between Tyrol and Cally have been exacerbated 50 fold with the Chief's discovery of what he is... he's been avoiding Cally and she's sunk into depression and the lack of sleep and the pills to help with it are just making her rage at the suspected affair and then her terror of discovering her love is a Cylon uncontrollable. And as someone who suffers from depression I think they did a good job showing the desperation and hoplessness of the lowest parts. Love the tunnel vision and the garbled voices from her perspective.
Her disgust too that her own son is an abomination...and the oposite desire to save him from the Cylons.
But holy cow... Tori is freaked up... and STRONG. That Cylon slap proves that she's not a normal person.
I'm SO MAD though that they've killed her!!! She and the Chief were the sane heart of the show... I guess that made them perfect targets in the end. No one is safe... and that makes for great TV!
[ April 19, 2008, 01:26 AM: Message edited by: Telperion the Silver ]
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What I'm wondering is whether all the six/eights took out the inhibitors and faced off against the Cavils, or if it was just the particular group on the ship. I do agree with Cavil that they've opened up a huge can of worms by freeing the centurions. From the centurions' point of view, I can't see why they'd be any more willing to accept subjection from the humanoid cylons any more than from the humans. They might be able to get by if the centurions are offered a full equal voice in voting, but given the history of enslavement I really don't see that happening. I suspect that it's only a matter of time before the centurions (and possibly the raiders?) decide to rise up.
The whole secret government issue is something that has been played with on and off several times over the course of the show, but with Apollo heading things up it looks like this theme will take a lot more center stage.
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[spoilers, but if you haven't had a chance to watch it online by now, you are totally missing out!!!]
I had read online about Cally, but still actually seeing it happen...wow. Really powerful stuff. Tory is definately going to get really freaky. I wonder what her story is going to be about how Cally died.
Now while it looked like the Cavil faction was blowing the crap out of the Natalie faction, you know that they are going to full some sort of McGuffin to make sure that they don't all get totally blown away. Still, I knew that the Civil War was coming, but I didn't see the Cavil's betrayal coming at all. I was actually taken by surprise when the other ships started shooting. Very cool.
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quote:Originally posted by ricree101: What I'm wondering is whether all the six/eights took out the inhibitors and faced off against the Cavils, or if it was just the particular group on the ship. I do agree with Cavil that they've opened up a huge can of worms by freeing the centurions. From the centurions' point of view, I can't see why they'd be any more willing to accept subjection from the humanoid cylons any more than from the humans. They might be able to get by if the centurions are offered a full equal voice in voting, but given the history of enslavement I really don't see that happening. I suspect that it's only a matter of time before the centurions (and possibly the raiders?) decide to rise up.
This is the critical strategic point... because if the rebellion was limited to just those few Basestars no problem... but if ALL the 6's, 2's, and 8's rebelled everywhere at the same time... well that means at least half of the Centurions are self aware now... if not all.
AH! But in this newest episode Boomer tells Cavil that the Fleet is split down the middle (and what about that kiss! Holy crap!). So I guess this is going to be a serious Civil War...and a first strike at the Natalie faction, not just trying to weed out an infection.
What about the Centurions on the Cavil/Old Guard faction? Are they self aware now too or were they able to prevent it and they are happy, brainless soldiers the humanoid models can control easily? I would assume so because if not the Natalie faction will win in the end... or shall I say the Centurion faction will win in the end. The only hope for the Standard Seven Models is that they can be reborn...so even if the Centurions kill all the SS on all the Baseships they'll wake up on their Resurrection Ships. But those ships are pretty defenseless and if they are wiped out the SS are doomed.
They'll be forced to flee and ally themselves with the Humans...
[ April 18, 2008, 05:36 PM: Message edited by: Telperion the Silver ]
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Wow. I hadn't seen any spoilers, although I pretty much saw Cally's death coming as soon as Tory noticed the open panel. Is she acting evil because she's a Cylon? Was she always this way?
I think it's interesting that Tory chose to save the kid. It reminded me a bit of Six's protectiveness toward Hera.
Hey, did anyone catch the number on the weapons locker? Posts: 3546 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Yeah I saw her death as soon as Tory saw the panel too. Tory is just bats**t crazy now. I think six's intentions towards Hera were far more noble. Tory I think just saw a Cylon in danger and killed Callie in the process.
I don't think this is a Joss yet. Did any of us care about Callie the way many of us cared about the characters that Joss has killed off? And for that matter, many of the deaths Joss instituted were senseless. They came out of nowhere and served little function other than to shock the viewer, and he's stated as much as that being his intention. Callie's death I think will fit snugly into the plot. Adama will likely rule it a suicide, and any questions raised will be quashed by Tigh. But I really wonder how this will effect Tyrol.
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*sigh* I cared about Cally. She's been around since the miniseries and she was awesome! Personally I thought Boomer would have been better for Tyrol, but I didn't want Cally to die at all. But then, I'm kinda an empath, so I get way more connected to characters I like much faster than a lot of people. It's why I can't watch sit comms or embarrassment comedy. I just feel bad for the characters.
But Tory's gone completely evil. She set up the whole issue about the affair thing. She saw Cally come into the bar in the mirror. And that's when she started really coming on to Tyrol and rubbing his arm like that. Tory's gone totally manipulative, Six style. God only knows what she's putting in Roslin's head o_O
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quote:Hey, did anyone catch the number on the weapons locker?
Yes. That was awesome. I pointed it out to nathan right away (well, after I stopped laughing).
quote:It reminded me a bit of Six's protectiveness toward Hera.
Actually, the way some scenes were shot, they were reminiscent of Six's movements and how she stood when holding Hera, etc. I also commented on that. However, Tory's manipulativeness seems more evil than original caprica/head six's actions. I can't quite put my finger on why though. I mean, original six paved the way for a successful tactical nuclear strike on the twelve colonies. tory has just manipulated a few people to incite one person to suicide, talk that person down to get their child, and then proceed to kill that person anyway. Maybe it's that Six gave a crap about some things and the audience knew it, while Tory, we can't quite see what she cares about other than her own agenda. Right now, even Baltar is more sympathetic.
Also, about the Centurions, I still love how Natalie has to say, "Please." Makes me giggle.
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I hope not. The Civil war is one of the more interesting aspects of this season. It would be a shame to end it that fast. Also I'm hating Boomer right now.
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Yeah, I can't imagine that the civil war plot would be over so quickly. I'm guessing that either some of them escaped or that some stayed behind and managed to avoid the trap.
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quote:Did any of us care about Callie the way many of us cared about the characters that Joss has killed off?
quote:Originally posted by Alcon: *sigh* I cared about Cally. She's been around since the miniseries and she was awesome! Personally I thought Boomer would have been better for Tyrol, but I didn't want Cally to die at all. But then, I'm kinda an empath, so I get way more connected to characters I like much faster than a lot of people. It's why I can't watch sit comms or embarrassment comedy. I just feel bad for the characters.
But Tory's gone completely evil. She set up the whole issue about the affair thing. She saw Cally come into the bar in the mirror. And that's when she started really coming on to Tyrol and rubbing his arm like that. Tory's gone totally manipulative, Six style. God only knows what she's putting in Roslin's head o_O
I am in complete agreement with you Alcon.
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I think my most favorite character is Laura Roslin. I hope they don't deconstruct her too much in the coming year... what am I saying, of course they will, it's already begun. I just hope they don't kill her off! Or that at the least if they do take her into the dark she has a chance to come out again before the end.
So far her actions have been noble and just...everything she's done has been for the good of Humanity...and while in a world with 12 Colonies and 50 billion people her actions might be wrong and punishable, in this period of critical threat to the species any means necessary for our survival can and should be used.
But from what I've been reading on the boards people are turning against her left and right. Oh she's a tyrant, oh she's so mean, oh we don't like her anymore. Hey, I would say, she's become a strong leader at long last! I love the way Roslin is now...but I don't like where I think she might be going. Maybe she's having the same problems that Mon Mothma had in that Tim Zahn trilogy... acumulating power because she's a micromanager and is afraid other folk can't handle it but is doing it with the best intentions. But hey, isn't that how most tyrants start out? No matter what dark path they may take her down and how low she'll fall Laura is still the savior of the Human Race.
[ April 19, 2008, 02:27 PM: Message edited by: Telperion the Silver ]
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BSG's writers destroy every single relationship.
Think about it. Baltar and Six; Starbuck and Apollo (and their spouses); Tigh and his wife; the captain of the Pegasus and the Cylon. Now Tyroll and Callie.
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I still say we wouldn't want lunatics like this coming anywhere near earth. The "toasters" and the "skin-jobs" aren't the only monsters. They're all monsters!
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I wonder if it's selfish of them to try to find Earth. Isn't bringing the war right to the last enclave of humanity risking genocide?
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quote:I still say we wouldn't want lunatics like this coming anywhere near earth. The "toasters" and the "skin-jobs" aren't the only monsters. They're all monsters!
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Ok, I think the muse was watching over my sleep last night, cause I came up with a few theories just before passing out.
The first one is about the final five. What if the final five are as different from the SS as the SS are from the Centurions? More specifically, what if they've transcended beyond the physical? One possibility I see is that the minds of the final five are not limited to any particular body and perhaps they were downloaded into normal human infants. This also helps to explain the latest Kara developments about how she feels disembodied. Perhaps they somehow managed to keep her psyche and transfered it to a new body. This would also support the possibility that she's a hybrid OR...
My next theory: What if the "Humans" aren't human at all? What if they all only THINK they're humans? "All of this has happened before. All of this will happen again." Obviously, this struggle between "Humans" and Cylons is a recurring situation. What if the REAL humans didn't really win the last time around? How many generations would it take for them to forget that they AREN'T really humans? After all, skin jobs are virtually indistinguishable from regular humans anyway right?
Furthermore, what if the REAL humans are all on Earth, and so when the Hybrid from Razor said that Kara would lead the way to humanities destruction, he wasn't talking about the crews and passengers of the fleet, because they AREN'T human. He was talking about the only true humans left: Those who escaped to Earth.
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Few random thoughts to add to the board here.
First off, I am drained of theory, all I can do now is just watch and let the experience wash over me like waves on the sand. Seriously, my brain is empty now. This week's ep..zip, nada, nothing. I liked it but I have no further insight to share. Very strange I must say.
Second, Wowbagger I am infinitely jealous of your name. Dang it, why didn't I think of that? Very cool.
Sylvrdragon, I put forth a similar theory last year, but I really like your spin on that. I had been operating under the idea that humanity keeps surviving. However, what if they didn't? At this point, it wouldn't surprise me to see RDM and company pull something like that on us as the endgame.
Now excuse me while I go light a candle in the memory of Cally. I was fond of her, but she got really whiny after she had Nicky. I think that her experience on New Caprica really amped up her neediness and inferiority complex.
Oh and yeah, I agree, Tory is freaking me out. That girl is going dark fast.
BTW, did anyone notice from the previews next week that Tigh is getting his very own head angel? I'm all a tingle!
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quote:Originally posted by Shigosei: Is she acting evil because she's a Cylon? Was she always this way?
She's always seemed a little amoral and manipulative to me. I imagine that it's stepped up a notch now that she is keeping a secret that would pretty much result in her immediate death if it was ever found out.
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Blayne Bradley
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quote:Originally posted by sylvrdragon: Ok, I think the muse was watching over my sleep last night, cause I came up with a few theories just before passing out.
The first one is about the final five. What if the final five are as different from the SS as the SS are from the Centurions? More specifically, what if they've transcended beyond the physical? One possibility I see is that the minds of the final five are not limited to any particular body and perhaps they were downloaded into normal human infants. This also helps to explain the latest Kara developments about how she feels disembodied. Perhaps they somehow managed to keep her psyche and transfered it to a new body. This would also support the possibility that she's a hybrid OR...
My next theory: What if the "Humans" aren't human at all? What if they all only THINK they're humans? "All of this has happened before. All of this will happen again." Obviously, this struggle between "Humans" and Cylons is a recurring situation. What if the REAL humans didn't really win the last time around? How many generations would it take for them to forget that they AREN'T really humans? After all, skin jobs are virtually indistinguishable from regular humans anyway right?
Furthermore, what if the REAL humans are all on Earth, and so when the Hybrid from Razor said that Kara would lead the way to humanities destruction, he wasn't talking about the crews and passengers of the fleet, because they AREN'T human. He was talking about the only true humans left: Those who escaped to Earth.
We are forgetting something important, remember when Tigh said "Baltar's Cylon detector was junk didn't even catch boomer"
Now remember how it actually DID catch boomer and Baltar thinking his life at risk turned it green?
He had tested numerous people before that his detector does work, and it can distinguish humans from cylons.
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That's right--and they tested everyone on the ship, too. So how did they miss the final five Cylons?
Let's just face it--the writers have already blown the story hopelessly beyond repair. At this point, they might as well send in Doctor Who.
Of course, I was so disenamored of the show back when they were on that planet playing the roll of living in a POW camp, that I simply stopped watching it for all the rest of the season.
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Imagine that. Ron disengaged the four episodes widely considered to be some of the best and most controversial of the series. I mean Exodus won an emmy.
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Alcon, this is a thread about BSG. Whatever issues you have with Ron, this is not the time or place for them.
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quote:Alcon, this is a thread about BSG. Whatever issues you have with Ron, this is not the time or place for them.
Sorry, I've been really stressed lately and I think my normal snark filter has disengaged.
It doesn't help that Ron came into a thread about BSG to say that he basically didn't like any of the characters in the show, and then that it's screwed up and he stopped watching it.
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Blayne Bradley
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: That's right--and they tested everyone on the ship, too. So how did they miss the final five Cylons?
Let's just face it--the writers have already blown the story hopelessly beyond repair. At this point, they might as well send in Doctor Who.
Of course, I was so disenamored of the show back when they were on that planet playing the roll of living in a POW camp, that I simply stopped watching it for all the rest of the season.
Ron you are so horribly mistaken, Baltar himself said when he first began work on it that at the rate he could practically test everyone aboard the ship it would take some 15 years to do. The only person we KNOW he tested and didn't tell us the result is Adama senior.
Why the frak do I know all the little details? Like jeez, people even went as far as arguing with me over the origin of Atlantis in Stargate, it originated on EARTH people X million years ago! Then went to Atlantis! First episode showed this!
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After Boomer, I don't think that the detector every truly worked again. At the end of the Ep with Ellen, Head Six stated to Baltar that it was too bad that the detector said that everyone was human nowadays. It worked at some point, but we don't know at what point he broke it. At the end of the episode, the only person that we know got tested was Ellen.
Whether it worked or not is not irrelevant. If Baltar knew that anyone else was a cylon he would have figured it out before now. In fact, he wouldn't have spent all that time with D'anna trying to figure out who the final five are. He broke sometime after Boomer and before Ellen. It's moot to try and figure out if the detector would have identified any of the five as cylons. The story has moved past that and it has become a footnote.
Blayne, you are correct, but he was referring to the entire fleet. The Galatica would have only taken a few months. Still time was not on their side.
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It's entirely possible that the Final Five might not get picked up by a detector that can identify the other seven models. Moore and Co. have taken pains to emphasize that the Final Five are fundamentally different from the Basestar Buddies, after all.
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Blayne Bradley
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also theres no evidence to presuppose they did the galactica first heck they should have done Adama first by your argument but they didn't, meaning that they much have done it the only logical way from this evidence they did it first come first serve so all the DNA with names and serial numbers brough to him one batch at a time by whatever got their first meaning its entirely possible that they missed Tigh and the others.
Also remember that barely a year went by when he was doing the tests out of 15 not enough time, it is entirely possible and plausible that they missed those 5 and once Baltar became president he wouldnt have had time to do the tests.
Then there's the fact that after Boomber shot Adana they would have thought the tests didnt work and not continue testing people after what? a relatively brief time.
After you eliminate the impossible you are left with your answer.
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Actually, Baltar said it would take upwards of 60 years to test the entire ~48000 survivors (at that point), and that wasn't including downtime for stuff like sleep and whatnot. I don't remember offhand how many people are on Galactica, but at 11 hours per test, and only one test at a time (Season1 Episode9 "Tigh me up, Tigh and down"), I must assume that it alone would take several years.
Besides, the exact lines from the scene in question are:
Head Six: If only they knew that everyone passed the ____ test (couldn't make that part out, but it's irrelevent).
Baltar: Well, it's so much simpler that way. No muss, no fuss.
Head Six: So... What did the test really say? (While looking at Adama, who was in the room at the time)
Baltar: I'll never tell.
Episode ends.
So you see, the test wasn't broken at all. Head Six was merely commenting on everyone else's ignorance of Baltar's actions in falsifying his results. Furthermore, Adama could still be a Cylon and only Baltar knows (maybe he just forgot in the later episodes when he was asking about the Final Five?). That would kinda fit in with the whole "Been playing around with the idea since the first Season" thing. Though I'll admit, I don't like this theory all that much as it would create a couple continuity errors (Baltar's aforementioned forgetfulness). Can't rule it out completely though.
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quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: also theres no evidence to presuppose they did the galactica first heck they should have done Adama first by your argument but they didn't, meaning that they much have done it the only logical way from this evidence they did it first come first serve so all the DNA with names and serial numbers brough to him one batch at a time by whatever got their first meaning its entirely possible that they missed Tigh and the others.
Also remember that barely a year went by when he was doing the tests out of 15 not enough time, it is entirely possible and plausible that they missed those 5 and once Baltar became president he wouldnt have had time to do the tests.
Then there's the fact that after Boomber shot Adana they would have thought the tests didnt work and not continue testing people after what? a relatively brief time.
After you eliminate the impossible you are left with your answer.
Missed this post before I replied. Actually, they were supposed to do Adama first (Roslin insisted), but at that same time, Elen (Tigh's wife) showed up out of the blue and Adama told Baltar to test her first. That was actually the point of the episode. When Roslin found out that Adama had his test canceled to do Elen's, she told Baltar to stop Elen's and continue Adama's. Then she found out who Elen was and called him back and told him to reverse it again. In the end, everyone was in Baltar's lab after he got EVERYONE'S test results. This is when the lines in the above post were said.
I didn't rewatch any of the episodes directly after this one, so I don't remember if they even went back to the tests or not. I suppose I'll probably watch the next ep now and find out. I'll post again if I find something.
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quote:Originally posted by ricree101: She's always seemed a little amoral and manipulative to me. I imagine that it's stepped up a notch now that she is keeping a secret that would pretty much result in her immediate death if it was ever found out.
To be honest, I think that the Cylon revelation is a bit of a red herring and that none of the four actually has had their behaviour change specifically as a result of being a Cylon, no latent commands or the like. No, I think for the next few episodes (and watch me be easily proved wrong in the next episode) is that the four will cause/suffer a lot of problems due to their expectations of what it is to be a cylon, rather than due to actually being one. For example, Tori giving into the dark side of being human using the excuse of being a Cylon to silence her conscience, the same way that some drunk people use alcohol to allow themselves to do whatever they want... and the horrifying realisation that afterwards, that she was responsible for all her own actions and no Cylon explanation for becoming dark..
quote:Originally posted by Telperion the Silver: But from what I've been reading on the boards people are turning against her left and right ... Maybe she's having the same problems that Mon Mothma had in that Tim Zahn trilogy...
I like that observation, its a nice parallel. To be honest, I haven't really turned against her yet. For example, as a viewer, we naturally sympathise with Starbuck, we think she's real, but from Roslin's perspective she's really quite correct. In fact, I wonder if a surprise ending will be Starbuck finding out that she really did die in Maelstrom or something similar. There are a fair number of science fiction shows where someone has to come back and prove that they are themselves, that it might be worthwhile in the writers minds to subvert that cliche.
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To be honest, the whole Cylon biology thing is really starting to stretch my suspension of disbelief. IIRC, so they know that there are synthetic chemicals present when burning a Cylon, they have luminescent spines, some way of connecting to a fibre optic cable through their wrists, and some mechanism for resurrection, and superior strength. However, there is still no reliable test for testing whether someone (like Starbuck from the POV of the fleet) is an "old school" humanoid Cylon. On the other hand, their biology is close enough to interbreed with humans...
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Well, to be fair, Moore has admitted that the glowing spines were a bit silly- IIRC we haven't seen them since the first season, and Moore said somewhere that they won't be back.
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Blayne Bradley
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quote:Originally posted by Mucus: To be honest, the whole Cylon biology thing is really starting to stretch my suspension of disbelief. IIRC, so they know that there are synthetic chemicals present when burning a Cylon, they have luminescent spines, some way of connecting to a fibre optic cable through their wrists, and some mechanism for resurrection, and superior strength. However, there is still no reliable test for testing whether someone (like Starbuck from the POV of the fleet) is an "old school" humanoid Cylon. On the other hand, their biology is close enough to interbreed with humans...
There is an reliable test, just not one that people think is reliable.
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You know what that could refer to? The Lords of Kobol created humanity to worship (read: serve) them. Humanity didn't work out, Humanity left Kobol after some sort of calamity or war.
Humanity created the Cylons to serve them. Cylons rebel, big war, Cylons leave.
Cylons evolve, create Centurians to serve them. Centurians rebel, big war.
Repeat ad infinitum.
It might not mean necessarily a human-cylon cycle, but rather something else. Rather a cycle of a species playing god, and then its creations rebelling, destroying their creator or simply leaving it and surpassing eventually creator. Only to have the same thing happen to them.
Editted: Somehow this post ended up in the Presidential Primary Discussion Thread even though I KNOW I used the Quick Reply box in this thread to initially post it...
Posts: 3295 | Registered: Jun 2004
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Popping in to say: I started the series last Saturday and am now up to date as of 30 minutes ago.
This week has been a blur of BSG.
My favorite episode: Starbuck commandeering the Cylon Raider and making it home just in time.
My least favorite episode: The most recent one with Calli out the airlock. Calli and Tirrel were my favorite characters. Why Tirrel would ever let that relationship go south, I don't understand. And killing her off? It would be like if Joss killed off Kaylee--at least that's how I felt about her.
It took me long enough to finally be convinced that I should start watching. It didn't take me very long at all to realize this was one of the greatest shows I'd ever watched.
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Well to be fair, Tyrol did have a lot of issues, and a LOT of stuff happened to them that strained their marriage, plus their jobs and having a baby. But in the end he tried to make amends, it just didn't click right.
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Least favorite? As compared to Black Market and The Woman King?!!
This one wasn't perfect, of course, and it was sad to see what happened... but I never really like Callie. The Cylon Civil War is making up for any shortcoming elsewhere, and they finally have something useful to do with Helo and Athena again.
Are you sure you aren't mistaking feeling sad at what happened with disliking the episode? They aren't one and the same, after all.
And it also just goes to prove... this season, anyone can die.
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quote:Originally posted by 0Megabyte: Least favorite? As compared to Black Market and The Woman King?!!
I actually didn't mind the Black Market, although I agree about The Woman King. So far, I'd say that my least favorite episode war Unfinished Business. Besides the fact that I didn't like the episode, I also felt that this was the point where season three really took a nose dive in terms of quality.
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