posted
I just rewatched Six of One and had some thoughts about the Six, Natalie.
Her actions, while will eventually lead to part of the Cylon joining the Colonials, are still treason. I see alot of people calling Cavil the villian and happy at his initial downfall, but he's actually the hero of his race. Natalie's is the real first strike in the civil war. Sure the Cavil faction tricked Natalie's and upped the anti by attacking Baseships but she was the one who struck the first blow in the civil war when she and her comrades shattered the Consensus by screwing over the historic and legal democratic vote and killing half the Cylons off at once (sure they'd be reborn) just because she didn't like the outcome of the vote.
Sure her actions will bode well for Humanity with the Cylons destroying themselves... but she is in no way a good-guy.
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posted
You mean the Six that killed Admiral Cain and escaped with Baltar's help? The one who set off the nuke and killed herself because she knew she was out of range of a resurrection ship? I'm thinking no.
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posted
Yeah, that's why I deleted the post. Her name was Gina. Although they do have the same hair color!
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Yeah, Gina of Season Two was way way out of range of any Resurrection ship and is dead for good. Natalie, who hasn't been named on the show but RDM has called her such in his podcasts, is the leader of the rebel Cylon faction.
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posted
Telp, While I don't think anyone would argue that Natalie wasn't the one who started this conflict, I think it's hard to really demonize her for her actions. Effectively she slapped Cavil and the rest in the face (presumably they all were ressurected shortly after being shot) while his faction was the first to actually start killing the opposition.
additionally, while Cavil's faction did have a majority vote on these matters it was effectively deadlocked... 50.000001% to 49.999999% is not much of a majority (since it appeared that the entire extent of the swing was Boomer). I can see arguments that major decisions (such as lobotomizing raiders) would need something like a 2/3 majority, just like in the US congress.
Really, by boxing the D'anna's they probably threw out the door whatever previous official tennants they had on decision-making. In the past the closest a deadlock could be was 4:3, but now a real 3:3 deadlock was possible, and as shown even that could get shaved down. Basically, assuming there was some kind of governing constitution that you're claiming Natalie was commiting treason against, you could argue that said constitution did not have a way to resolve this conflict, and thus she committed no treason.
Basically their system of government was thrown out of equillibrium, and the civil war is the result.
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posted
True their system of government was thrown out of balance.... but the decision to box the Three's was made by not just Cavil but the entire Consensus...including those that would become part of Natalie's faction.
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posted
It was a consensus, but it doesn't mean that it didn't mess up the gov't processes that they had in place.
Example: I'm sure that there's plenty of rules on the books that specify how many votes congress needs to pass laws, ratify treaties etc (i.e. not just "simple majority" or "2/3 majority" but "200 yea votes" or whatever). So if the continental 48 states suddenly decided to pass a law reverting Alaska and Hawaii back to territories then a bunch of rules would potentially be broken, because there would no longer be the same number of delegates available to vote... so if then there was a vote on something else that resulted in a 51% majority, but didn't have the 200 votes needed, then we're at an impasse. One portion of law would probably claim that the vote had passed, the other would claim that it hadn't, and to a certain extent they'd both be right.
In the case of the Cylons I think it's only fair to assume that little in the way of actual laws had been set down. Previously there was at most a 3/4 difference in votes, with no ties. They said that no single model had ever voted against its siblings, and presumably there hadn't been much disagreement between the different model lines either. So I'm sure they hadn't set up these rules.
So when the Cavils' faction started doing drastic things with a very very very fine majority (even if that was because of a unanimous decision to box the D'annas) suddenly we're in a very grey area.
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Gaeda - Beautiful voice. I'm glad they came up with an excuse to stick that in there, tragic though it may be.
Roslin/Lee - LOVED the warm fuzzy moment between them.
Sharon - What the frack! The last couple minutes I was saying "come on, don't do it, don't do it, don't do it," and then BAM! I can't believe she shot her! That wasn't even the right Six! It was Caprica Six in the hold. Man that's nuts! That could have all sorts of crazy reprecussions, but it might not even matter since...
The Basestar - Woah! It looks like they've really changed, but that's a pretty serious moral quandary they're working on there. In the end it looks like they really want to do the right thing, but the sins of the past will either make that impossible or exact a terrible price for it. I'm a little surprised they turned the Hybrid back on, but woah! They JUMPED? Where they did go?
Next week - Hot damn! Looks like all hell is going to break loose! They might have taken a few episodes to get revved up, but they certainly aren't slowing down now. I love it!
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posted
I still like my theory that RDM is playing games with our assumption that the fleet are the Humans. One idea that crossed my mind is that maybe the Final Five aren't Cylons at all. Maybe they're the last of the Humans, and thus, unboxing D'Anna and revealing them will lead ultimately to their death, which will in turn be the death of the Human Race, which was brought about by Kara bringing back the Base Ship (fulfilling the prophecy of the Hybrids). It also explains why the final five came from the home of the 13th (Earth).
HOWEVER: They obviously can't actually BE humans because they have super strength and the AATW thing and the glowing scan eyes and whatnot. As such, I must conclude that they house the CONSCIOUSNESS of the final five humans and that the other 7 models are artificially created. They are relics. Artifacts of the lost Human race, and as such, precious.
I envision a world where the Cylons were originally built to protect them (Think Asimov). However, in the process of increasing their complexity, the skin-jobs forgot consciously about their original purpose and only maintained the taboo that they weren't supposed to expose the five (and as such, not talk about them). Only the Raiders and Centurians were able to retain this objective.
As for where the "Humans" that now occupy the fleet came from: "All of this has happened before, and it will happen again...". They are an older model of Cylons that survived an earlier age maybe.
IMO, this is the only way RDM can make good on all of the "Prophecies" so far in the series, and still end it without killing everyone that we care about. If this isn't what's going on, then I might just have a book to write!
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I'm not sure about how I'd feel about such a wicked switcharoo.
I am interested in how they explain the Laura-Caprica Six-Hera-Sharon dream connection thing. There's a lot to be explained, but I'm really excited to see how this ends, especially after this week.
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McCreary is the composer for BSG. He talks about this week's music, including an indepth breakdown of "Gaeta's Lament," that goes into such details that only people like Raia or Orincoro will really get anything out of it. But I still thought it was very interesting, especially that the song was the first thing he wrote for the season.
He also hints at the end about music he is working on for future episodes that are currently being filmed. Currently I think he says the fourth the last episode is being filmed. And he talks about incorporating music directly into the show in totally new ways, which has me intrigued, and that, plus the Lament, have me thinking that Season 4's soundtrack will be even better than 3's (which frankly had three or four stellar tracks and then a lot of replays from the first two seasons).
And here's to hoping they finish filming soon on these last few episodes and get on with it and don't subject us to a nine month hiatus to see the last few eps. The first 11 eps finish their run on June 20th. I'm hoping they can take a break and then give us the final nine in the Fall.
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posted
All I have at the moments are two words of sheer excitement from the promo for the next episode:
ROMO. LAMPKIN.
(I have to watch this past episode again before I comment too much on it - I was so distracted by how good Gaeta's singing was to pay attention to anything happening between the President and whoever she was talking to. Apparently it was Lee, who in turn dug his way out of whatever cardboard box they'd put him in these past two episodes.)
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posted
Oh I forgot about Lampkin in the preview. I wonder what he'll be doing. What will they need a lawyer for? If I had to guess? Sharon Agathon will be prosecuted for murdering the Cylon as a peace offering to their new Cylon allies.
Lee has been very absent lately, and it was nice to see him back and not as Zarek's tool.
The guy who plays Gaeta studied opera at a university in Montreal before he became an actor.
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posted
Meh, I thought Gaeta's singing was distracting and pretty much useless. Don't get me wrong, I think he sings quite well, but I didn't think the scenes with him fit very well in the episode.
I'm really anxious to see what the "opera house" thing is about and Hera's connection to the Sixes. Maybe we'll start to get some answers in the next episode, so far it's been question after question after question. They've got to give us something. Posts: 4519 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Is she connected to the sixes or just to Caprica Six? I'd assumed the latter, but now I wonder. She did draw a lot of sixes, and she was drawn to Natalie, who is not Caprica. Hm.
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quote:Originally posted by Telperion the Silver: Ugh!! I missed it and Hulu isn't providing the episode!
Bit Torrent is your friend.
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Oh I forgot about Lampkin in the preview. I wonder what he'll be doing. What will they need a lawyer for? If I had to guess? Sharon Agathon will be prosecuted for murdering the Cylon as a peace offering to their new Cylon allies.
Lee has been very absent lately, and it was nice to see him back and not as Zarek's tool.
The guy who plays Gaeta studied opera at a university in Montreal before he became an actor.
That University is McGill University!!! One of the top ranked Universities in the world.
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quote:Originally posted by Telperion the Silver: Ugh!! I missed it and Hulu isn't providing the episode!
Bit Torrent is your friend.
I wonder if they're souring on the whole internet broadcasting thing. They've already dropped the live streaming episodes in favor of a 10 minute preview, and now they haven't posted this episode or any of the teasers. Hopefully this isn't a sign of things to come, since where I live scifi is only available on digital cable, which I don't have. I had really been hoping that they would continue to provide a legitimate way to watch the episodes online.
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posted
Ahhh... Saw it. Just replayed on sci-fi. Maybe hulu.com was waiting till it aired again so the channel can get their ratings and sweet sweet money.
WOW. Basestar in the fleet... humans on Basestar... visions and Gaeta singing with his words mirroring what's going on...
And Natalie's faction truely willing to sacrifice the core of the Cylon nation and their immortality. But I don't care what they say, death is not an redeeming quality of Life... it is the high cost off. Saying that death is a good thing is just an attempt to fool ourselves into thinking so because since Death is unavoidable and horrible, and such thoughts are comforting. A folly IMHO, and if immortality was possible it would be the ultimate triumph of Life and a great good.
What gives meaning to living is how you live and the happiness/art/beauty you achieve.
Oh the words were nice and I appreciated them, considering what's going on with Laura...it's just hard to me to believe the rebels would be willing to destroy their race... wouldn't they rather claim the Central Hub for their own?
And speaking of the Hub, considering how supremely important it is to the Cylons wouldn't the Cavil faction up its protection now that the rebels exist (who have data on where it jumps and other defence systems)? Even if the Mainstream Cylons never dreamed the rebels would ally with the Colonials the Natalie faction would have the Hub as their ultimate goal regardless because D'anna's line is stored there. Plus, the fact that even though rebels began to percieve reality differently, now that they are no longer immortal, is not shared by the Cavil faction... they are still linked up to the network and probably have no idea that the rebels have had such a profound paradigm shift against resurrection and would be so willing to sacrifice the Central Hub.
But their defense of the core would still be paramount and even increased in the face of the civil war...and I would bet the rebels tried to claim the Hub earlier in the war. Capture, destroy, it means the same thing to the Cavil faction...that they loose resurrection functions.
If I don't see at least a dozen Basestars protecting that thing I'm going to be disapointed.
Ok... so the Cylon Main Fleet is moving through space, along the general route of the Galactica, spread out searching for Earth... each Resurrection ship and its battle group in range of the Central Hub (or at least each ship in range of another ship that can relay information to the Hub). Hmmmmm... but wasn't the original Resurrection ship independent? Did the Cylons build the Hub at that point? They hadn't abandoned their homeworld nor the 12 Colonies yet and there wouldn't be a need for a portable way to transport the Cylon nation.
Eh... either these are plot holes or will stay vague to leave it to our imaginations and any number of answers...
Natalie wasted... didn't see that coming... did the Hybrid jump to the Hub? If she did then maybe Natalie will download inside and help with the invasion. What will Laura discover from the Hybrid? So cool.
[ May 19, 2008, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: Telperion the Silver ]
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posted
Why would Natalie download even if the Hybrid jumped to the Hub? Unless Natalie downloaded in the baseship first, she's dead on the Galactica and that's it.
And yeah, I'd expect the Hub to be heavily protected, it would be weird for it not to be... The Cavil faction just killed human Cylons for good, it doesn't take a genius to figure out the remaining rebels would go after the hub. Unless they think there are no remaining rebels?!
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The idea that death is a gift is a big part of Tolkien's mythology too, as you well know. Elves lived forever, but the younger race, humans, were given the gift of death, which was I think viewed both as tragic and genuinely a gift. Elves viewed themselves occasionally as trapped, and over the centuries, as weary of life. I think it looks different on the far side of three or four thousand years. After the Numnoreans came about, strife only really started to appear when the rulers clung to life longer than they should have.
I wonder how much of this is really based on our need to find fantastical ways of explaining away death as something as a "gift" or a "redeeming quality," and how much is rooted in a real belief that delaying death really does do harm to our humanity.
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quote:Originally posted by Corwin: Why would Natalie download even if the Hybrid jumped to the Hub? Unless Natalie downloaded in the baseship first, she's dead on the Galactica and that's it.
And yeah, I'd expect the Hub to be heavily protected, it would be weird for it not to be... The Cavil faction just killed human Cylons for good, it doesn't take a genius to figure out the remaining rebels would go after the hub. Unless they think there are no remaining rebels?!
Sorry i should have clarified. In the preview we see Galactica making an emergency jump and leaving the RTF without warning, going after the Basestar I assume and thus bringing the dying (assuming she's not dead yet) Natalie with them.
It might be believable the Cavil faction thinks the rebels are gone... hmmmm... but I don't think so. The war hasn't been going on for very long has it? A few weeks at most?
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I wonder how much of this is really based on our need to find fantastical ways of explaining away death as something as a "gift" or a "redeeming quality," and how much is rooted in a real belief that delaying death really does do harm to our humanity.
Mmmmm... Elves... But yes, I wonder too.
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posted
Thanks for the link about Gaeta's lament, Lyr. The composer's own surprise at the "open interpretation" of the feel the of the final cadence is funny. I love music that deals in muddled harmonic direction--though it really shouldn't be THAT surprising for him. Any time you use the major 3rd when you're in a minor key, most of our ears interpret it to function as a secondary dominant, which is why the actor playing Gaeta would think of it as a "resolution" to Em rather than the tonic Bm. The composer's opinion that it was in Bm is confusing, too, because there's no use of C# throughout the piece. If anything, it would be a B Phrygian feel, based on the prevalence of the flat-II C major.
This show needs Earth soon. I don't want them to just find the planet and have that be the end.
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posted
I didn't spend all that much time analyzing it as I was listening to the show. Nevertheless, I enjoyed how Gaeta's song employed "muddled harmonic direction", as Launchywiggin put it. It lent an aura of foreign-ness to it. To me, it's plausible that this mode could be a prevalent tonality of the culture from whichever Colony Gaeta is from (Caprica? I don't recall...). It adds to the immersion, for me.
I can't think of any moments right now, but I, for one, have been jarred out of immersion in some similar movies in which a character sings or plays an instrument and the song is built around Western tonalities, an even-tempered scale, and maybe even Ionian or Aeolian modes. The extra effort and attention to detail is appreciated by me.
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quote:Originally posted by Telperion the Silver: But I don't care what they say, death is not an redeeming quality of Life... it is the high cost off. Saying that death is a good thing is just an attempt to fool ourselves into thinking so because since Death is unavoidable and horrible, and such thoughts are comforting. A folly IMHO, and if immortality was possible it would be the ultimate triumph of Life and a great good.
What gives meaning to living is how you live and the happiness/art/beauty you achieve.
Certainly you're entitled to your opinion on the matter, but this is one of the things that made me love this episode. This is one of the recurring themes in much of sci-fi/fantasy. Basically it's the concept that only realizing how much you are capable of losing motivates you to truly live.
The last couple episodes have really started focusing in (at least from my perspective) on the fundamental nature of the Cylons. Effectively they're really smart, fully grown kids that have all grown up in a very strange cult, with no actual exposure to the outside world. As you can see throughout the series, those Cylons who have significant exposure to humanity tend to drastically change in their development (i.e. siding with humanity over the Cylons, siding with other models rather than their own...). This makes total sense to me, and is very important.
Back when they were all just part of the cylon society, immortal and without conflicting philosophies none of them would have experienced any personal growth. Now though, they see that other experiences may lead to different conclusions than their initial programming... just look at how they've at least partly gone back on their initial move to exterminate the human race. Basically, now at least some portion of the Cylon race is growing as people (wow that's a poorly phrased sentence).
As for the mortality thing: on one hand, yes it's a necessary evil (or at least fault). On the other hand it certainly is a real motivator for personal growth and development. As an immortal you are going to have a drastically different outlook on life. Others' lives are likely to be treated much more cavalierly. You are much more likely to be lacksadaisical in your personal development, etc... it's a matter of motivation.
When I have a project at work that needs to be done by friday, then I will do it by friday. If I have a project that needs to be done "soon" or just at all, then it's likely to get pushed back for months or years until I have a chance... it's in principle the same with mortality. If I knew that I'd just keep resurrecting I'd probably be much more careless with my own safety, and that of others, and I'd be far less motivated to attain any goals. Procrastination is a powerful enemy.
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quote:Originally posted by Telperion the Silver: Sorry i should have clarified. In the preview we see Galactica making an emergency jump and leaving the RTF without warning, going after the Basestar I assume and thus bringing the dying (assuming she's not dead yet) Natalie with them.
Gotcha. That makes sense.
quote:It might be believable the Cavil faction thinks the rebels are gone... hmmmm... but I don't think so. The war hasn't been going on for very long has it? A few weeks at most?
Well, all that we see from the rebels is one almost destroyed baseship. Were they THAT stupid as to come all in the same place for the first "battle" (read "slaughter")? I don't know. Were there other battles? I don't know either. But until we find out otherwise I think it's possible that the Cavil faction does in fact believe that the rebels are dead. I still wouldn't leave the Hub undefended if I were a cylon, I mean you never know who shows up uninvited to the party...
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quote: Well, all that we see from the rebels is one almost destroyed baseship. Were they THAT stupid as to come all in the same place for the first "battle" (read "slaughter")? I don't know. Were there other battles? I don't know either. But until we find out otherwise I think it's possible that the Cavil faction does in fact believe that the rebels are dead. I still wouldn't leave the Hub undefended if I were a cylon, I mean you never know who shows up uninvited to the party...
Right, 'cause if the Hub is destroyed it would be the same thing as if the Cylon homeworld was destroyed. They Cylons would become just like the Colonials in that regard...
But... even if the Hub is destroyed the Cylons have enough hardware around the galaxy to rebuild it, right? Maybe not... if all are born there (new Cylons have to be created somewhere) then they not only loose their ability to resurrect but also to make more of themselves.
But... where do the Basestars and Resurrection ships come from? Either they built a huge number of them back home and are living on the remainders or they have the ability to make more in their current state of transit. If they can build a Basestar and/or Resurrection ship now then they can rebuild the Hub.
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quote:Originally posted by Telperion the Silver: Right, 'cause if the Hub is destroyed it would be the same thing as if the Cylon homeworld was destroyed. They Cylons would become just like the Colonials in that regard...
posted
Oh Cavil... com'er baby! How does that man get so much tale?! Well... he must be called #1 for some reason!
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posted
ALL the Anders'? That's one hell of a dibs.
On Natalie -
No way is she still alive, not even clinging to life. Sharon put her down, and then shot her again while she was on the ground. She's gone.
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posted
Not unlike the way the other Sharon shot Commander Adama.
Yeah, I think Natalie's toast too. I just wouldn't be too surprised if she did manage to pull through somehow, though I'd probably think it was kind of lame.
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posted
I thought I saw Natalie in the preview, though it could have been a somehow resurrected Natalie?
Edit to add: Yeah, at roughly 7 seconds left during the drumbeat of images, she looks alive though only barely.
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: We don't actually know if there are multiple copies of the final five.
There are none. The FF do not exist in the Cylon nation, not anywhere. Not on any Resurrection ship nor Central Hub. Since these are the only vessels/hardware that can make multiple copies of the humanoid Cylons, and considering the Standard Seven do not have the FF models or any information about them (other than the fact they exist), the only answer left is that the FF cannot have multiple copies.
At least none made by the standard Cylon race who destroyed the 12 Colonies.
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quote:Originally posted by Telperion the Silver: At least none made by the standard Cylon race who destroyed the 12 Colonies.
Right. They could get to Earth and find out that there are copies of the Five there along with their own resurrection hubs.
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It's been stated there are billions of humanoid Cylons. How do they make a new individual personality? There must be more spare/easily grown bodies than there are individual minds. So how do the Cylons make new minds? And where?
My first guess, of course, would be the Central Hub. Just imagine the computers needed, biological or otherwise, to create, store, and download new minds into bodies.
What is the method used to decide how large the Cylon race should be? Why billions? Why not less? Why not more? I would guess the only limitation to how many Cylons there could be would be how fast they could build starships.
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quote:Originally posted by Telperion the Silver: Here's another interesting question: How do they make a new individual personality? There must be more spare/easily grown bodies than there are individual minds. So how do the Cylons make new minds? And where?
My first guess, of course, would be the Central Hub. Just imagine the computers needed, biological or otherwise, to create, store, and download new minds into bodies.
They could potentially fork the new personalities off of an existing one, and then perhaps tweak it as needed. I remember Athena saying that she had many of Boomer's memories up to a certain point, which would seem to somewhat support that, although they could just as easily have some way to simply extract the memories and give them to a new Cylon.
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