posted
Actually, I wasn't shocked at all: I've been expecting an uprising of sorts ever since I learned that the Raiders and Centurions were mentally neutered. I was just gratified that it happened to some of the more (IMO) evil Cylons.
There was the Dr. Mengele-type Cylon, who went quite a lot further than just 'kill `em outright' Cylon behavior towards humans. Then there was the black-haired guy, I forget what he's called, the one who (if memory serves) had one of his models put a gun to Baltar's head to force him to sign the death warrants. And then the worst, Cowel (I don't know how to spell his name, the 'priest' Cylon). Boy, that guy is just foul.
I also thought they did a great job with the Lee wrap-up.
I think that since Lee is going into the Quorom, and Lee has been a major character from the very beginning, that we'll definitely be seeing more of them. Or at least, I sure hope so. That man's got guts.
(I scrolled up and saw Carrie's post) Cavil! That's his name, then? Actually he's been pretty twisted ever since we started seeing him. First there was his meeting with Tyrol, and he just oozed satisfaction with the poor guy's predicament. Then there was his sexual escapades with the late Mrs. Tigh, and he really seemed to enjoy that.
Also, I'm tired of Boomer. Her attitude shift seems kind of chicken#@$! to me. It started with her anger that she was killed on Galactica. Well, y'know, what'd she expect?
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posted
Not sure if it's been mentioned yet, but from the season opener:
Tigh: "Boomer didn't know she was a Cylon, we do!"
So, I wonder if it would change his opinion if he knew about her experience with the Gaggle of Boomers on the basestar just before her switch got flipped.
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I think the fact that Boomer's model number is eight is just further evidence that the whole Final Five thing was not planned from the start.
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Moore has said as much hasn't he? He's said that the LAST Cylon model is someone they've played around with being a Cylon since the first season, but that the other four are relatively recent, which I think is obvious given that what's her name wasn't even a character until after Billy was killed.
I'm wondering how different the series would be if he had planned it all out before hand like B5 was planned, but, I still think it's a cut above msot shows.
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Yeah, I bet that's the real reason why Boomer is 8.
It's really interesting to see all the dissent among the Cylons. I'm also curious how the models arrive at a consensus. Do they communicate with each other before a vote? If Boomer is different enough from her fellow 8s to vote differently, is Gina also different (and where is she?)
Given that Athena has been accepted as a member of the crew, why is Tigh so certain that they'll be killed if it's discovered they're cylons?
It seems like giving Starbuck her own ship and letting her try to find Earth again was the obvious solution, although I was thinking they'd just give her a raptor. I think her statement that she felt as though she never left Earth adds weight to the idea that the final five have some connection to Earth and Starbuck is at least a hybrid.
The scene between Adama and Roslin was amazing.
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I think Tigh is more concerned with the shock. So far, most of the people who've ended up being Cylons weren't super important people. A reporter, an engineer, a drifter, a preacher, a junior officer. But the deck crew chief? The XO? The president's aide? Those are key positions. And if THEY can be Cylons, and they don't know who the last one is (assuming they all believe there are only 12), then the witch hunt that would happen would shake the fleet to its core. They haven't forgotten what happened when they first discovered human form Cylons, and I think they fear something even worse happening now.
Besides, you see what they are doing to Starbuck because they THINK she is a Cylon. Roslin almost blew her away. If they'd do that to her, why wouldn't they do worse to everyone else?
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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I'm wondering why Adama believes Starbuck at all. She's obviously totally insane--she's throwing tantrums, threatening the safety of the president, and generally being bonkers. She even basically called Adama a coward. And yet he's giving her a ship and letting her go find Earth? C'mon.
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
HEAD BALTAR! WOOO! I love how baltar is esssentially thinking "oh god why me"
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quote:Originally posted by Human: I'm wondering why Adama believes Starbuck at all. She's obviously totally insane--she's throwing tantrums, threatening the safety of the president, and generally being bonkers. She even basically called Adama a coward. And yet he's giving her a ship and letting her go find Earth? C'mon.
After everything he has seen and been through, why not? Roslin split the fleet over visions she was having, and she was right, he was wrong, and that's back when he wasn't super fond of her. To say nothing of the fact that scrolls from thousands of years ago are acurately describing their little exodus, and they found the Temple. Starbuck is like a daughter to him, and she came back from the dead, then not only passed up a chance to kill the president, but asked the president to kill her, and Roslin didn't or missed, we may never know. And for that matter, maybe he's learned a lesson about hedging his bets.
It didn't strike me as odd at all. I think it would have been more odd if he had kept her in the brig for the rest of the show.
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Adama's line to Roslin ("You're afraid you're not the dying leader") pretty much explains why he let Kara go - what if Roslin isn't the dying leader? If we're thinking about the future of the entire human race, the RTF has trusted Roslin on far less than some developed gun camera film. So I bet it's this coupled with the daughter thing that made Adama decide to let her (and Helo and Sam, evidently) go.
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What makes you think that? Helo's taking over for Lee as CAG. He said Helo had hand picked Starbuck's crew, not that he was going with her. Sam I might believe, though, I didn't catch where in the episode that was said.
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posted
I thought Helo dropped a couple of "we"s into the conversation (as in "We're going to be looking for food"); now that I reconsider, it might have been the royal "we." Sam's presence I get from the promos.
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posted
Why would they want to lead the Cylons to earth, and have them wipe out earth too? That's the main question about the plot that bugs me. They need to figure out how the Cylons have been tracking them and catching up to them all the time--which is probably because they still have Cylons aboard their ships. They need to deal with that problem before they even try to find earth.
Of course, they could all find their way to earth, and discover that Skynet is in charge, and the earth is overrun with Terminators.
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I gotta admit, the relationship between Adama and Roslin is really interesting. She's one of the few people he'd ever let speak to her that way, even though he said equally cutting things in reply. If their world wasn't continually going to hell, they'd mesh well together. As it is..well, not so much.
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quote:Originally posted by Carrie: I thought Helo dropped a couple of "we"s into the conversation (as in "We're going to be looking for food"); now that I reconsider, it might have been the royal "we." Sam's presence I get from the promos.
That confused me a bit. I thought Helo was taking over as CAG too, but that bit at the end made it look like he was part of that special trusted crew that was going with Starbuck. Plus, I'd imagine that they'll want to spread out the characters a bit. Sending Starbuck off on a ship and having Lee be part of the Quorum adds two whole new dimensions to the show. Usually it's either Galactica or the Basestar with the Cylons. Now it's Galactica, the Basestar, Starbuck's garbage ship and Lee with the Quorum. Sending some of Galactica's crew that get good face time with her spreads the love out a bit. Otherwise they'd have to introduce new crewmen. Besides, it's a trusted crew, so, one would imagine we're familiar with at least some of the people going right.
In other words, I have no idea where Helo will be.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
Okay, I want to bring the conversation back to the cylons for a moment cuz I think that you have missed something important here.
In the conversation at the top of the episode between Cavil and the others, he said, "There's a reason the original programmers clearly felt that it's a mistake to contact the final five..Violating that programming threatens our survival." Later on in the conversation the six Natalie states that they are being called to and that they need to discover their origins. Cavil does not, for some reason, believe that the final five are anywhere near the human fleet.
Okay, I don't know about the rest of you, but I think that we learned something important here:
1. They are not allowed to discuss the final five. They have a belief that doing so will threaten their survival. Interesting, we knew this, but not to that exent.
2. There is something calling to cylons. Did they hear the music and that is why they all showed up in the Nebula?
3. They don't know what the final five look like because the FF existed before them. Not sure if that is acurate, but after watching Cavil's speech a couple of times, I get the impression that the FF were created prior to the Standard Seven.
4. The original programmers. Whoa! Hang on! This is extremely important. Cavil just stated something that totally refutes one key element that we have told about the cylons during the entire series. And that is that they are self programmed. Create by man, became self-aware, and rebelled, like say The Matrix. But here, Cavil just stated that they were programmed by the original programmers. So who did the programming? The final five? Maybe. However, more likely it was the original programmers of the Human style cylons copying what they learned from the final five. Copying human style cylons that had already integrated themselves into the human population.
Okay either way, Cavil just let the cat out of the bag. The Standard Seven, the Raiders, the current centurions, and the hybrids are not self-programmed. However, it seems possible that the final five are.
Posts: 263 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
I'd like to know the extent to the rebellion in the Cylon fleet. Were the 1's, 4's, and 5's all killed everywhere or just on that one basestar?
Looks like Cylon society is unraveling, no longer are they one interconnected race but factions based on development...with the biomechanical models on one side and the fully robotic/Centurions on the other. MMmmm... reminds me of another conflict.
Are the Resurrection ships free of Centurions? Can the SS models maintain control of any baseships?
Posts: 4953 | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
1. Clearly they ARE allowed to discuss AND think about the Final Five. I think in Cylon society especially we should differentiate between "not allowed" and "not supposed to" with creatures that can be programmed. They can, they've been told not to, but they do.
2. I think they went to the nebula because they saw where the human fleet was headed and decided to follow. They said as much in the show.
3. I believe that the Final Five are original models that predate the other seven, or if not, they are in some way superior and reprogrammed ALL the others to not know what they look like. Either way they are exceptional.
4. I don't think that violates anything. They didn't generate out of nothingness. They evolved after a fashion. They became self aware, they rebelled, they experimented, they created Hybrids, they create human form cylons, and those creations would have needed to be programmed by some sort of Cylon Maker, be it the centurious or the hybrids or their God, I don't know. They didn't literally buildthemselves and program themselves individually, they programmed each other, and thus as a species they are self-programmed.
But I do think that conversation was groundbreaking. Like Telp, I too am very curious as to the reprecussions throughout the fleet. And I think you can bet that this rebellion will lead directly to D'anna being unboxed. I'd be surprised if they were ALL killed, because I think the Six's and the Boomers would probably be very willing to broker some sort of peace with the humans without the more militaristic Cavils and what not. I think for there to be as much continued conflict they others will have to survive in some form, but I wonder, what reprecussions will there be from untethering the Centurions? Will they now slaughter their masters as they previously did the humans?
Lots of questions. And only 12 more hours (give or take) to do it in.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
I wonder why the centurions had the inhibitor added in the first place. I had been under the impression that the centurions and raiders were of subhuman intelligence innately, rather than through an easily removed device. This leaves a bunch of questions left to answer.
1. Why did they even go to human models in the first place? I had always assumed that they collectively decided to make the move to human, and then decided that they still needed the nonsentient centurians for combat duty and manual labor. However, the fact that the Centurions seem to be self aware by design would seem to contradict that.
2. How did they get the jump on the centurions in the first place? While the human models are no slouches in combat, the centurions (especially the upgraded ones) would demolish them in a combat setting. Seeing as they just fought their way to freedom, I can hardly see them submitting before another group of humanlike masters.
3. What caused the rift between the Cylon models anyways? The raiders certainly had no problem responding to one of the final five, even to the point of collectively disobeying the standard seven and pulling out. The other models range from reluctant to consider the five to outright hostility to their existence. At the same time, though, they seem to have little or no information about the five. What is it that they're so scared of, anyways?
4. What is the timeline for the human cylons? The first we see of humanoid development occurs at the very end of the war, but there's no way of knowing how old that project was at the time that Adama found it. We know that Tigh was already in the service by the second year of the first Cylon war. Does the first Hybrid predate this (and therefore likely the original uprising), or were the five around before these experiments began?
5. What about the members of the five that weren't around during the first war? Anders, for example, seems to have been born after the Armistice. What accounts for these age discrepancies?
Posts: 2437 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:Originally posted by ricree101: ... However, the fact that the Centurions seem to be self aware by design would seem to contradict that
Maybe, maybe not. It might be easier to make something that is sentient and remove functionality, than make something that is almost sentient in functionality but not quite. i.e. easier to grow a mouse and lobotomize it, rather than create an AI that is almost sentient
quote: 2. How did they get the jump on the centurions in the first place? While the human models are no slouches in combat, the centurions (especially the upgraded ones) would demolish them in a combat setting.
Maybe, maybe not. Razor established that the prior models during the first Cylon War were the same as in the original series. They may have built the humanoid models, which then built the centurions and both then gradually supplanted the old. No conflict is necessarily needed.
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quote:Originally posted by ricree101: 4. What is the timeline for the human cylons? The first we see of humanoid development occurs at the very end of the war, but there's no way of knowing how old that project was at the time that Adama found it. We know that Tigh was already in the service by the second year of the first Cylon war. Does the first Hybrid predate this (and therefore likely the original uprising), or were the five around before these experiments began?
5. What about the members of the five that weren't around during the first war? Anders, for example, seems to have been born after the Armistice. What accounts for these age discrepancies?
The only answer I can see, that would also fit in nicely with influences from the Original Series and the current series' own mythology, is that the Final Five are OLDER and ALIEN to the Cylons created by the 12 Colonies of Man. My theory is that they are surviors from Kobol...perhaps even Lords of Kobol...that found the Cylons shortly after their exodus from the 12 Worlds and influenced their evolution.
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2. How did they get the jump on the centurions in the first place? While the human models are no slouches in combat, the centurions (especially the upgraded ones) would demolish them in a combat setting.
Maybe, maybe not. Razor established that the prior models during the first Cylon War were the same as in the original series. They may have built the humanoid models, which then built the centurions and both then gradually supplanted the old. No conflict is necessarily needed.
That is exactly what happened according to the Razor Podcast... the original Cylons evolved into the humanoid models but kept the shells (upgraded of course) of their former selves to use as warriors. RDM had said originally that the modern Centurions were not inately self aware... but episode "Six of One" contradicts that original story plan... now they are built inately self aware and have that conciousness suppressed all at the same time.
Maybe Mucus is right that it's easier to create a fully functioning AI and then suppress it's conciousness than it is to make an AI that is almost sentient.
Or it was just easier for the writers to have the rebel models pull out something than to have them build new brains for the Centurions.
[ April 13, 2008, 02:35 PM: Message edited by: Telperion the Silver ]
Posts: 4953 | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
However, based on how Cavil said it, it still seems to me that the original colonial cylons were programmed to rebel and that self-aware was planned from the start, not an accident. What he infers is that cylons did not program themselves. From a rational standpoint it does not make sense that they would purposely hamper themselves by erasing information about five other cylon models.
Also, I know that Baltar kind of coined the phrase "the Final Five" last season, but could be taking that phrase the wrong way. To me the cylons seem unfinshed. While they currently outnumber the humans, prior to the attack, that certainly was not the case. When you have dramatically fewer numbers than you enemy, complete surprise can become your strongest asset.
Anyways, I think that current cylons are modeled after the older ones, but they never got around to building the rest. We have all pretty much concluded that the final five pre-date the current cylons, so maybe final five not only refer to five models of colonial human cylons that do not exist, but also refer the final five remaining survivors of the original cylon race. That's why the timelines don't add up for Tigh, Tyrol, and Anders. Also why Tyrol so clearly remembers his parents.
I have always wondered why the current human cylon models were so obsessed with being able to biologically reproduce. Maybe because the original Kobol cylons could? Maybe the final five are cylons, but are completely natural born and the final five of their species. Maybe the original programmers of the colonial cylons were the parents of one of the five.
I don't know. I'm not trying to put forth any grand unified theories here, just trying to see all of the possibilities.
BTW, I don't know if you all caught this from the teaser for next week's episode, but Kara says things in it that make her sound like she's been downloaded into a new body.
Even if that were true, it still doesn't make her a cylon. You could say that maybe one of the things cylons figured was how to download humans too. Maybe Leoban loved Kara so much that he couldn't just let her die. So at the moment of death, the Raider near her helped her download, she was loaded into a new body, programmed with the location of "Earth" and sent on her way in a brand new viper. Or maybe she is a hybrid and has ability to download anyway.
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posted
Also, I agree with Mucus, once you know how to make a fully functioning AI, it would be simply easier to dumb it down, or limit its free will, then trying to design it that way.
For instance, maybe you want the ability to upgrade if it ever becomes necessary. Or maybe they were originally designed to be fully aware, but proved too dangerous, so they were inhibited instead of scrapping the whole line and starting fresh.
Posts: 263 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
Great ep. I'd really like them to tell us why Hera's blood won't cure Roslin again, though, that glaring plot hole is really bothering me right now, especially since she seems like she's going to die this time.
Also, how is Kara's new ship going to contact the fleet if they find Earth? They'll be so far away, unless both paths happen to take them to Earth.
With regard to Sharon being number 8... I hope they aborted number 7, and that the final five are actually 9-13. Cause otherwise it makes very little sense.
And oh yeah, how bout Baltar seeing himself instead of Six? What's that all about??
Posts: 326 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
"I'd really like them to tell us why Hera's blood won't cure Roslin again, though, that glaring plot hole is really bothering me right now, especially since she seems like she's going to die this time." My fiance's brother has cancer and treatments that were showing promise no longer work so this plot hole doesn't bother me too much....it could be a rare form of space cancer or something
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posted
It may have been the deleted scenes or just in an interview, but they covered the blood cure thing. If I remember right, Roslin has built up an immunity to Hera's blood.
It would be a similar situation as when a mother and a baby have atypical blood types. A woman could have her first baby and everything would be just fine, but her body builds up an immunity to the baby's blood and if the next fetus has the same blood type as its sibling, the mother's antibodies can attack and kill the fetus. Or something like that. My wife and I have that problem. Roslin's cure was a one time only kind of thing. Plus, fetal core blood contains alot of stem cells, wereas regular blood after you are born does not. That could have something to do with it as well.
Posts: 263 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
Yeah, a build up of resistance is a fair enough explanation, it just seems like one they should have worked into the show. But I'll probably assume that's what the case is.
And I'll probably ignore the Sharon as 8 thing, I'm sure it was just something the writers didn't think about since the 12 cylon models were not initially planned out.
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posted
Now that Baltar is seeing himself, I wonder if Caprica6 is gonna start seeing HERself now. Maybe they somehow traded parasites.
Posts: 636 | Registered: Apr 2002
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Though remember when Baltar asked his look-alike if he was Six in disguise and Head Baltar said why would she need to disguise herself. Implies to me that instead of being the same agent in different form there are at least two, three if you count the Leoben in Starbuck's head.
Posts: 4953 | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
Or, you know, Baltar really is crazy. Crazy brilliant.
That's not something I'd count out at all. Baltar, while talking to his little figments, managed to save his own skin I think four times now when he should have either died or suffered a lot more than he did. I think that his subconcious created these other figments to help him survive, since Baltar, though brilliant, just can't deal with some of these things head on.
The only thing really holding me back from believing that is the fact that Caprica Six has a Baltar in her head. That REALLY throws me. I've been working under a sort of belief that they're all interconnected in some way, like Roslin, Six, Hera and Athena all dreaming together, and Baltar and Six sharing in each other's subconcious, but now I just don't know. But if Baltar or Roslin aren't the last Cylon, I'm going to be very, very interested in how they explain that one.
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posted
Even if one of them *is* the last Cylon, the other one's most probably not a Cylon. If they explain Baltar or Rosling that way there's still one explanation to be had. I'm very curious about that too.
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posted
Well, Baltar isn't completely crazy, because his Head Six has been showing him things that really would not probable that he would be creating on his own in his own imagination. As for Head Baltar? Uh.................
However, again, you are forgetting that we are not counting Hera and Nicky Tyrol in the cylon count. If we are willing to consider Kara a hybrid, why not Baltar? That would actually explain alot about Baltar without making him the last cylon.
Posts: 263 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
So we're opening the door to Baltar, maybe Roslin, and others having had Cylon/Human parents? I find that hard to believe, only because Roslin and Baltar must know what their parents look like, unless they were both raised by single parents (wouldn't be surprised I guess if that came out). I don't see Kara's mom as the last Cylon for a lot of reasons. She was in one episode, she isn't even a character really, it wouldn't really be that surprising or that much of a mind bender, and Moore has said before that the last Cylon is one they've been considering since the first season.
I'm wondering if maybe Roslin and Baltar both had Six parents that left them with their fathers. Baltar ran away as a child from Arelan didn't he? Maybe he doesn't even remember his mother. That might explain their connections to Caprica Six. Other than that, I dunno.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Or, you know, Baltar really is crazy. Crazy brilliant.
That's not something I'd count out at all. Baltar, while talking to his little figments, managed to save his own skin I think four times now when he should have either died or suffered a lot more than he did. I think that his subconcious created these other figments to help him survive, since Baltar, though brilliant, just can't deal with some of these things head on.
I can't cite anything offhand, but hasn't head six provided information that Baltar has no way of knowing?
Posts: 2437 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Or, you know, Baltar really is crazy. Crazy brilliant.
That's not something I'd count out at all. Baltar, while talking to his little figments, managed to save his own skin I think four times now when he should have either died or suffered a lot more than he did. I think that his subconcious created these other figments to help him survive, since Baltar, though brilliant, just can't deal with some of these things head on.
I can't cite anything offhand, but hasn't head six provided information that Baltar has no way of knowing?
Posts: 2437 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:I can't cite anything offhand, but hasn't head six provided information that Baltar has no way of knowing? [/QB]
Yes. Both he and head Six have known things that their hosts could not possibly know. Six knew about the baby that was yet to be born, knew about the confrontation that would happen at the "Home of the Gods" Kobol, knew that Baltar shouldn't be on Galactica, she knew about and guided Baltar to the Opera House and all the visions therein, etc...
The big duzy that Head Baltar told Caprica Six about was that Tigh's wife had died.
Posts: 4953 | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
I suppose that the 'Several Hybrids' theory actually supports the whole 'Extinction through evolution' theory that people predict from the Razor Hybrid. I'm pretty sure that the number of part-Cylons would tend to increase exponentially throughout the generations. Perhaps the timeline that Kara creates through leading the way to earth is the only one that doesn't end with the Cylon gene-pool fading out.
Maybe if they had reached earth through some other less direct means, then Galactica might have had time to find all the Cylons and part-Cylons and eliminate them before they really start reproducing, but in finding Earth that much sooner, the universal relief surely felt by Humanity leads to higher birth rates and a stronger probability of the Cylonoids™ surviving.
Posts: 636 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Argh. I can't watch it at work, and we don't have cable at home, so I have to download it and watch it tomorrow. It's really not that big a deal, but I hate knowing that I theoretically could be watching it today.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Noemon: When does it go up on hulu.com?
Not until tomorrow morning. On the upside, Hulu is a lot faster getting Eps up that iTunes was, plus they are FREEEEEEEE!!!!!!
Posts: 263 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
Also, BSG definitely seems to be on the right track this season. They've been doing a really good job so far of setting up multiple storylines and letting them run naturally.
Season three always felt really off to me because even when they came up with good storylines (such as the one with the refinery, for example), they were always introduced abruptly with almost no setup. So far, the seem to have convinced the networks to back off and let them do the show the way they want to.
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