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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » Battlestar Galactica Season 2 discussion thread (Page 5)

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Author Topic: Battlestar Galactica Season 2 discussion thread
Carrie
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Don't you remember the sexual tension between Lee and Dee when he was teaching combat techniques? Yeah, I don't like it either.

I am so waiting until 2 to see the rerun. I need to see this many more times and downloading it tomorrow night won't be enough!!

Spoilery high points (as of right now):


Jack. Love Jack. And it was Baltar's doing! Justice indeed. But where is Gina? On which ship, with which people, by what means is he concealing her? Is Six-in-Head gone? How is she going to respond to what he said? Or is she really just his subconscience? GAH!!!

I love this show.

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jeniwren
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I hope that Lee's encounter with space isn't going to turn him into a maudlin, I-wish-I-were-dead character. He's already too broody, I think. He could have that sort of character if Starbuck lightens up a bit.

But maybe my ignorance is showing. I haven't seen any of season 2 except the last two episodes, and am slowly working my way through season 1.

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Noemon
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Oh, yeah, now that you mention it I do remember that, Carrie. Maybe I should have rewatched the first half of season 2 before they started showing the second.
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mackillian
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I'm trying NOT to remember that scene. It made me squirm.
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R. Ann Dryden
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Yes, I also thought it was pure yuck. Eech. Why'd they do that to us?
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fil
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So, is Baltar having a "Smeagol" moment with both versions of Six? I argued with my bud who was over to see the show that his "sports" talk was in fact the REAL story. In his head, Six was the sports fan but in reality she was a creation of his psyche and he is NOW taking full responsibility for his actions in humanity's destruction and has "officially" chosen sides...not merely making decisions that make his life easier.

My friend argued the other way...that he is now "free" from choosing sides but that didn't make sense to me. Thoughts?

I think we will see Lee get back to his old self but it will be a while. He was thrown with, let's face it, THREE huge betrayals of trust. Kara was going to blindly follow the Old Man and kill and Admiral. His dad not only endorses but orders assassination and to top it off it was sanctioned and suggested by his maternal figure, Laura Roslyn. He has some brain teasing to go through for a bit. Instead of facing this he was content to let space suck him up. I don't think he is suicidal just confused.

On a technical note, the special effects folks in this episode have outdone themselves (which means a few skimpy episodes no doubt...but worth it). I was just in awe of the scenes with the two battlestars circling like old broadsides throwing ordinance like rain. It would have been beautiful on the big screen but really amazing for weekly television. Bravo.

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TheTick
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I like your idea for Baltar, fil. I'm not sure if it's right, but it would be one way for the writers to turn things around on us again, make us re-assess who is 'good' or 'bad'. Just like with Cain, really, as we saw a softer side of her with Kara, and with neither her nor Adama giving the go-ahead code.
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fil
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I am curious of BrainSix will make an appearance again or if we saw the last of her (for a while). They had her in the iconic red outfit (kind of her original look) that took us back to the beginning. The fact that both versions had completely opposite views of God's forgiveness might be his realization that Six in the Head was just his mind. Or maybe not. Gads, I don't know. Lots of food for thought, though. Any bets as to where he is keeping her? Who is in the least bit supportive of Cylons? Just keeping her in his stateroom won't be enough. My guess is that huge pleasure ship. I would assume he doesn't room on Colonial One permanently due to not wanting both he and the President to be on the ship in case it gets destroyed. The Pleasure ship seems to have a ton of room and no one probably knows what the Six model looks like, yet.
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TheTick
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There is a mention of 'Cylon sympathizers' in the descpription for the next episode, might have something to do with that...
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Khavanon
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I think this show is the best TV example of the bad choice versus the worse choice. There are so many instances where I have to think, "what would I do?" because most (but not all) shows don't make you question what to do because there's usually a way to make it right.

I like how it's developing. The miniseries was introductory. The first season was about watching the characters and the conflict develop. The second season has been more of that, but much more serious and difficult. I feel like I've been watching a five star film for 20+ hours, and I don't get tired of it because I love every episode. Or maybe it's better to compare it to a book, and each episode as a chapter, because the story doesn't end every episode. We just find a good stopping point. Those are my favorite kind of shows. I don't know why. I love short stories, too, it's just... something there isn't enough of?

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fil
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Hmmm...would the ship's doctor be considered a "sympathizer?" Or merely humane? Hmmm...

I think next week's episode looks very interesting. Consider this show's lack of fear in including some current political subtext (oddly enough, without clearly picking a side) I have to wonder how much of the show's view of the abortion debate will be Colonial Fleet specific or have enough generalities to make it a universal discussion, via a cool melodrama of course. Not many, if any, mainstream shows deal with this topic and I wonder if this is the first sci fi show to deal with it head on.

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mackillian
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a few of us were chatting about this show last night (xnera was watching the episode for the first time off iTunes) and about how the Pegasus and the Galactica view the Cylons differently. I was trying to explain to Tick about how while the Galactica still viewed the Cylons as the enemy, they (and the Fleet) seemed to have changed their view on them from toasters to...ramen. And while Galactica has made that shift, the Pegasus still views them as varelse.

They're not just toasters. Not anymore. I mean, they even talked about the Cylons having souls. Did anyone else see the bodies flying out of the Resurrection Ship when they finally blew it up?

That bothered me. And I remembered Six's words, "Tens of thousands of Cylons are going to die."

Adama's conversation with Boomer was intense. It's a question, it think, that so many of us have been wondering. Why the hell do the Cylons hate the humans so much?

An article came out recently that listed Ron Moore's top five favorite sci-fi stories, one of them was I Have No Mouth, and I Must Scream, by Harlan Ellison. If you haven't read it, well, go read it right now.

I think there's some influence there, in the way at AM hates the humans. At one point, the main character is trying to figure out why AM hates the humans so much:

quote:
We had given AM sentience. Inadvertently, of course, but sentience nonetheless. But it had been trapped. AM wasn’t God, he was a machine. We had created him to think, but there was nothing it could do with that creativity. In rage, in frenzy, the machine had killed the human race, almost all of us, and still it was trapped. AM could not wander, AM could not wonder, AM could not belong. He could merely be. And so, with the innate loathing that all machines had always held for the weak, soft creatures who had built them, he had sought revenge.
But the Cylons have managed to get themselves bodies. Not machine bodies, but biological ones. It seems that while they're programmed, they've got souls. I mean, Six saying that all those Cylons were going to die, was that the first time she'd said something like that? The first time she'd tried to stop Baltar from doing something that would harm the Cylons?
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Blayne Bradley
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Congratuations Admiral Adama. [Wave] (closest thing to salute) or maybe just :salute: will do.

Hey I found something funny Admiral Adama has the initials AA, double A batteries anyone?

Aside from that; It may be the Medical Docter or maybe some person in the civilian fleet who owes a favor.

But that was another big plot twist, the 2 fleets not killing each other, wow thats it, I'm going to barth with all these twists and turns I can't believe I hadn't done it already I'm absolutely giddy.

The Cylons aren't a conventional enemy, they don't want land, wealth or power. They're a fundamenalist enemy, they believe that they are G-d's Chosen and that it is their holy mission to launch a great Crusade to Purge the Galaxy of Humanity and Human influence forever. They might as well be varelse in that case for their is no reasoning with fundamenalist zealots, only the sword, they live by the sword and they must die by that sword. As with crusades throughout history we all know that a Crusade only ended when they were finally and irrevokically defeated and knew no choice but to withdraw and wither and die for an empire based on blood, tears and folly cannot stand.

Individual Cylons like Sharon while equally religious are not hateful of humanity but hateful of themselves for not being human and would do anything to become human. So what I think what this was was possibly begun as an attempt at diversity.

Think of it, how intelligent were the older Cylons? Intelligent enough to understand trial and error, to construct ships and conduct research, but basic intuitivity? Genius? Do they have the ability in the older models to act on "gut feelings"? What I think it is, was that some central collective Cylon intelligence decided to construct a new generation of Cylons, Cylons who could think for themselves and possess a level of free will equal to even the most independant of humans.

This would allow a tactical flexibility in the battlefield that I 100% doubt they had before and with key "officers" of human Cylons could command just as well and possibly better then any human equivilent. Prototype BioCylons PBC's could also if designed with different features could easily access a ships computer system or a building's system and reprogram it in minutes, so instead of having to cut your wrists a Cylon designed differently could just plug themselves in Matrix style.

But what I think happened is that something went wrong, here's what I've been thinking of: You had Generation 1, highly successful but here you learn where individuallity can take you, maybe "they" found that the PBCGENI was too unwieldy, too uncontrollable and prone to making decisions that did not kowtow to the party line so to speak and discarded them, took a step back, and made a decision. AFter studying "human" (12 Colonies) history and found how religion works and how individuals even possessing the ability to think for themselves and question their surroundings will willingly accept the greatest and most blantant of lies, religion, and it considers human religions as lies but decides and to create one for PBCGEN2 make it accept it as truth that "they" are G-d and they the Cylons are on a mission to purify the galaxy of humanity. GEN2 believes this for they are far more human then we'ld think, and accepting this mission GEN2 plans and plots and schemes and eventually places themselves in key positions inwhich the success of the Crusade hinges on.

But like Humans, the Cylons begin to have second thoughts and like humans begin to question themselves. And the plan we see is beginning to backfire. We see Sharon falling in love, even the new 6 may fall in love with Gaius.

Another thing is that G-d wants this new generation of Cylons to replace humanity, to become an alter to their greatness. by replacing humanity they would've gotten their revenge, so some humans are needed to procreate and maybe they will maybe the wont.

But the thing is, even if they amnaged to wipe out the Colonies and hunt down every last and remaining Battlestar and runaway Human ship and manage to procreate and create their new protohumanity....

There's still Earth, they fear Earth I can tell, Earth is a legend to the Colonies but the Humans do not doubt its existence and fear it because what happens if the Humans on Earth are even more advance then the humans in the 12? What happens if they Earthers find the 12 Colonies, find out what the Cylons did and get their own revenge? The Cylons cannot take the risk, so while they seem to be attacking the Battlestars they are also following them, allowing the Humans to find Earth for them so that the Cylons can whipe out Humanity once AND for all.

But as well all know the Cylons will come to Earth find out that we watch reality TV and give up in disgust.

Joking aside I REALLY REALLY REAAAAAAALY hope that this time around Earth won't be 2006 Earth and barely reaching the moon. [Roll Eyes] The older series had it where BSG reached Earth but it was the 70's. Horrible, absolutely horrible. I want them to come to Earth, and we become the ones who save their Colonial But and kick some Cylon ass all the way back to the 12 Colonies!

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Lupus
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The problem with an advanced earth, is that it would be at risk from the Cylons...I would say it would be likely that an advanced society would be very dependent on networks and wireless communication. This is the sort of thing that Cylons can easily get into. Unless they try to say that earth has better encryption...but it the way they describe cylons, it seems that it would be tough for any encryption to keep them out.
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Blayne Bradley
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I kinda forgot about that but nevertheless, the risk is still there, what happens if that isolated branch of humanity is SOOOOO advance that they can keep the Cylons out? But even if not, it can still be theorized that the Earthers can learn just as quickly to adapt to dismantling their military and essential networks, and this time its entirely possible that the Cylons wouldnt be able to whip out all of our defences in a single go.

The Cylons could theorize all they like but the Cylon G-d is probly still a rather cunning and intelligent but still a mechanical being, essentially a super sized calculator and decided that logically there's a risk however minor that the last remnant of Humanity just might carry the day and that is a risk that to a being that is trying to become a G-d simply cannot handle, its like Achilles, it simple cannot accept the possibility that someone else out there may be out there that can defeat it, that can make its best efforts look weak and puny.

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fil
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What if Earth is where the Cylons are coming from?? [Big Grin] We only know that the Cylons left...never to return, even for the yearly meetings at that neutral station. I don't think they writers know where Earth is or what it looks like at this point (or if they will reach it). There was some ideas that earth would be in the distant past and it is the Colonial Gods that get adapted into the Terrestrial versions. As long as it isn't 1980, I am fine with that. I doubt they will find Earth as we know it, though.

I will stick with my Cylon/Earth theory. Some Cylons (the human ones) said they are doing this because if they didn't, humanity would reach out and crush them in the end. They always do. "This has happened before."

I wonder if they will be turning back, if only temporarily. Caine wanted to go back and fight. It seems two Battlestars with their computers de-linked put up quite a fight against superior odds. The only reason the Colonies lost was that they were compromised from within. It wasn't overwhelming amounts of ships. Two raiders can take out an entire fleet when they can simply hack the ships and shut them off. I kind of hope they don't go back for too long (long enough to know they can't stay, maybe) but we will have to see.

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Blayne Bradley
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While interesting as your theory is its almost completely baseless if you look at the evidence provided by the show, my theory I came up with based on the rational that machines intelligent enough can make more machines but can improve them. I doubt they came from Earth but more likely that they are afriad of the possibility that whats left of humanity can and will crush the Cylons in revenge.

But who knows maybe the writters will supply more evidence as time goes on to either prove or disprove my theory.

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mackillian
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I think Cylons do have souls.
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Blayne Bradley
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Probly, life is life, they're more then the sum of their parts there is something that sets them as individuals. Even having only 12 different models doesnt automatically make it 12 different personalities, we can all agree that the 2 sharons were undoubtably different. The Caprica Sharon had a far greater willpower and was willing to make tremendus risks, the BSG Sharon I think was very indecisive and didn't have the willpower at times to fully reist the Cylon secret programming.

Also then you have the 2 6's each with a different view on forgiveness.

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Angiomorphism
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i just started watching BG, and i'm a little unclear as to where we are exactly in season 2... i just downloaded the 12th episode, and it was fantastic! but i haven't completely seen the episodes before that, and it takes forever sometimes to download them. i'm in canada, so can anyone tell me when it's on and where it's at?
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Blayne Bradley
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season 2 episode 12. 13 isnt out yet, I suggest getting all of the previuos episodes.
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twinky
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Yeah, I was a little skeptical when they actually destroyed one of the cylon base stars. I mean, if you can destroy base stars that easily, why the heck have you been running all this time?

Angio, I'm in Canada as well. It airs on Space a week later than in the U.S. I think it's Friday nights, but it might be Saturday.

While I don't think cylons have souls, I also don't think humans have souls. I do think that the organic cylons are not substantively different from humans in their ability to feel genuine emotion, but I also think that since they were presumably grown and then raised by mechanical cylons, their emotional development is probably stunted or at least warped.

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TheTick
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quote:
Originally posted by twinky:
Yeah, I was a little skeptical when they actually destroyed one of the cylon base stars. I mean, if you can destroy base stars that easily, why the heck have you been running all this time?

That one got me as well. I thought they said that a Battlestar alone was no match for the Cylon Basestars.

I know some folks were wondering how Number Six could find Cain's quarters, remember she lived on the ship for a while before she went off on the crew. As for how she got in the room, remember what Sharon could do to the Cylon attack force just by jamming a fiber cable in her arm. [Wink]

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Blayne Bradley
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Umm..... if I remember correctly, nearly all of the Cylon raiders were chasing the mining ships, a Base star is like a heavily armed carrier, but without its CAG its useless.
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twinky
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I remember seeing base stars launching dozens of missiles in previous battle scenes. I mean, if all they needed was a little diversion to take out the base stars, why didn't they do that a season ago and destroy the whole cylon fleet? [Razz]

Added: I'm exaggerating with that last bit, of course, but destroying the base star as a bonus when they were really just trying to hold them off long enough to hit the resurrection ship was a stretch for me.

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fil
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The reason the Colonial Fleet was destroyed so quickly had nothing to do with Basestars and amounts of ships. It was the lax attitude of the fleet that allowed the Cylons to send their virus programs in and shut off all opposition. I think if all the Battlestars were still as de-linked as the Galactica (and now the Pegasus, I would assume) then it would have been a shorter mini-series. By the time Galactica was re-armed, it was too late to do any good (it was nearly a museum ship by that point).

Now that they have two fully functional Battlestars with so far full load outs they are now actually a fairly formidable group. Also, recall that the plans for the battle included distractions from the civilian fleet which was to draw off a large part of the ships. It was a neat plan but we only saw a wee bit of it (but a glorious bit at that).

My thought now is to whether they will go back en force to Caprica and other Colonies. It could potentially be bad for the show to do this...to essentially go back to square one. But this would be a good way to get rid of one Battlestar, eventually.

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TheTick
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I wonder if the Cylons couldn't conceive of the attack being aimed at the Resurrection Ship instead of the Basestars, and being thrown into a bit of chaos once they realized it.
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twinky
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They've engaged the basestars since then, though, fil, and every time they wound up having to run. Granted, there were two battlestars this time, but there were also two basestars.

*shrug* Maybe if they'd shown more of the battle (by making it a three-parter rather than a two-parter) I would have bought it. I couldn't suspend my disbelief and they didn't do anything to help me suspend it.

Actually, I think they tried to cram a bit much into one episode there. The whole battle, the thing with Lee, the double assassination and calling them off, the stuff with Helo and the Chief, and then Gina and Baltar... a little more focus would have been good, I think. I'm not sure how I'd do that, but I'm an engineer, not a director. [Razz]

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The Pixiest
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The battlestars used focus fire. That is, They both hit the same Basestar, till it was destroyed, then switched to the other. IIRC the basestars didn't.

Anyone who's played an MMORPG or an RTS knows how effective this is =)

Pix

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twinky
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Any such person also knows that the minute you focus fire, even the basic scripted AI used in today's games retreats the affected unit when it's in danger of death. [Wink]
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Blayne Bradley
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Not in any of the games I've played IE: Homeworld which is mighty similar to BSG.
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twinky
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StarCraft is the most obvious example.
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TrapperKeeper
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Even so, it still works in video games. Who knows whether or not the principle applies in reality.. or fictional TV space combat.
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Friday
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I was under the impression that the Galactica had never really asaulted the basestars, rather it's number one objective was to protect the civilian fleet. I would imagine that had the Galactica been trying to actively attack the basestars, then it could have done some serious damage. Now that there are two battlestars both actively trying to destroy the basestars, we see the ships' true offensive potential.
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mr_porteiro_head
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This is the first time I've ever been caught up on the show. Some thoughts:

This is some of the best science fiction I've seen in my life. Thank you, mack, for getting me to watch it.

Admiral Caine is scary. Freaky scary. And I can't figure out if I'm more scared of her when she's on screen or when her crew is. Michelle Forbes did a great job.

I still can't get used to them calling the biological cylons "machines" when they clearly aren't. It seems forced and fake.

I thought it was kinda cheap and Disney the way they killed off Caine without any of our heros getting their hands bloody.

The parts with Gaius Balthar and MindSix are by far my least favorite part of the show. You could cut it all out and I would not mind.

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mackillian
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I used to dislike the Gaius MindSix interaction, but it's grown on me.

Probably like some sort of toxic mold, but now it makes me giggle.

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beverly
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I've always found Gaius interesting in a sick sort of way. [Smile]
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Carrie
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I've always found Gaius hot in a sick sort of way... [Wink]
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James Tiberius Kirk
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quote:
They've engaged the basestars since then, though, fil, and every time they wound up having to run. Granted, there were two battlestars this time, but there were also two basestars.
I think that part of the sucess this time was based on the fact that

SPOILER

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Sharon knocked out so many of their fighters. I assume that they are able to manufacture more, but the Raider cover seemed really thin, this time.

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/SPOILER

quote:
*shrug* Maybe if they'd shown more of the battle (by making it a three-parter rather than a two-parter) I would have bought it. I couldn't suspend my disbelief and they didn't do anything to help me suspend it.

Actually, I think they tried to cram a bit much into one episode there. The whole battle, the thing with Lee, the double assassination and calling them off, the stuff with Helo and the Chief, and then Gina and Baltar... a little more focus would have been good, I think. I'm not sure how I'd do that, but I'm an engineer, not a director.

In the podcast, RM actually mentions that Resurrection Ship was a single episode, that had to be expanded to fit all the stuff that was going on. I was looking forward to seeing more of the battle, but in his words all you really need to know there is that it happened.

It was interetsing seeing it from a new perspective, though. Effects were great, as always.

--j_k

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mr_porteiro_head
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It didn't bother me not seeming more of the battle. In fact, I didn't even notice that there wasn't much of it there -- I was too focued on what was happening with Starbuck/Lee/Adama/Cain/Cain's XO, Helo, Chief, etc..
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mr_porteiro_head
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I was catching up on the show Prison Break and saw Michelle Forbes in and thought "It's Admiral Cain!" instead of "It's Ro Laren!" [Smile]
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mackillian
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hahahahahaha
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mr_porteiro_head
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Her role as Caine was so much more memorable than as Laren.
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TrapperKeeper
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OMG its the same actress??

Wow, never would of guessed.

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The Pixiest
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She was also in 24, season 2.
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mr_porteiro_head
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I haven't gotten around to seeing 24 yet.
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jeniwren
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Mac, in thinking that cylons have souls, do you think they have free will?

I finished watching season 1 last night, and that's what I began wondering. Sharon was clearly fighting her programming. *spoiler* Yet she still shot Adama without hesitation. The look on her face afterward was really interesting. So do cylons have free will? And if not, who decides their programming? Someone must.

I have to go out and buy season 2 so I can catch up.

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mackillian
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I think Sharon is gaining her free will, sort of like an evolution. Unlike the other models, she knows what she wants to do in regards to her life, and it doesn't seem to follow her programming anymore. The shooting of Adama occurred earlier AND that was a different model. The Boomer we've got now is from Caprica and that model seems even more evolved in terms of free will than the Galactica model. Does that make sense?

But it is the same soul.

You've got to watch Season 2!

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mr_porteiro_head
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Mack -- are you saying that there are precisely twelve cylon souls?
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Blayne Bradley
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If you take the concept of "aquas" or however its spelt from Children of Mind and Xenocide, theres a soul for each cylon even the little drones. The difference, is that there are 12 BIG cylon souls/intelligences that can replace or supercede the other cylon souls because they're higher up in the heiarchy so to speak.

No what we dont know if the new boomer is the original soul or a lesser version of it, not nessasarily the same.

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