posted
I don't like watching a show about hierarchies and power relationships and impending death.
I like watching a show about a group of free and equal people trying to do the right thing and do it together.
Firefly is more like the West Wing. One thing the west wing did right, rather, the best moments of the West Wing, weren't when Bartlet was giving orders, it was the group dynamnic of energetic people who weren't trying to merely live, but rather, they were daring to try to live well.
There is a built in egalitarianism in Firefly, bolstered by the fact that the entire Brown Coat ethos is that the independents didn't want the Alliance to tell them what to do.
If I have to choose between a story where people are merely trying to survive, and a story where people have secured the means of basic survival, and are trying to figure out how to live well, then I'll take the later. The former concerns hierarchy, labor, efficiency, economics, and getting food in my belly, the latter concerns dignity, responsibility, thought and action.
These dichotomies aren't strict, and egalitarianism bleeds into BSG and heirarchy and necessity rear in Firefly, but these generally are the reasons why I would pick one over the other. The BSG crew tends to concern itself with what's necessary to survive- for obvious reasons- the Firefly crew tends to try to do what's right and still feel good about themselves as people. For example, if Mal cared about mere survival, he wouldn't have been an independent soldier. He would have gone quietly over to the Alliance.
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The qualities that belong to the first batch are as follows: Hierarchy, labor, necessity, efficacy, efficiency, the struggle to survive, life and death, economy, sex, security, thoughtless obedience.
The second batch includes: Freedom, equality, responsibility, humility, degradation, thought, daring to thrive, speech, dignity, respect for one as free and equal.
I like shows that concern themselves with the second batch of qualities. Most shows- and I imagine, many lives- are a mix. I think that BSG tilts to the first and Firefly tilts to the second. I think that family life tilts to the first and public life tilts to the second. I think that military and business life tilts to the first and a life befitting a free and equal citizen in a democracy tilts to the second. I think that animal life tilts to the first batch and the interesting part of humanity tilts to the second.
This forum, just by its constitution as a web forum to discuss Books, film, food, and Culture, concerns mainly the second batch of qualities.
Not if you go back to the foundations of democracy, heck, not even if you go back to the foundations of this country. The Athenian democracy only recognized the patriarchs as the "Demos," those free from the bonds of biological subsistence. The founders were similarly disposed. The dignity in the Athenian Democracy and the American continental congresses is that they got to think act and decide politcal matters. The Athenian men had women and slaves, and founders had women slaves and gadgets doing all of the work necessary for survival, freeing up their time and energy to concern themselves with talking with each other and thinking and acting as a people.
Sure, you can have a story centered around a group of people who concern themselves with living, or you can have a group of people who are concerned with living well. I think the latter will be a more interesting story.
But can't one combine the two? What I find so compelling about Galactica is that often the characters are trying both to live and to live well, as I understand your descriptions. They may not always succeed due to the circumstances often - but not always - beyond their control. I believe Galactica also shows many sides of this duality you've described (again, living to survive and living well) when it focuses on the dichotomy between the Fleet and the fleet, and even moreso when it delves into the differences within each category.
That said, I never got too into Firefly. I find it fun, but I don't find it nearly as compelling as I find Galactica. I find myself having many more moral and philosophical discussions after the last episode of Galactica than I ever did after watching Firefly.
Thanks for sharing your ideas about the shows. I find those very compelling and shall enjoy thinking more on them. Posts: 3932 | Registered: Sep 1999
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posted
Yep, BSG mixes both qualites, treating the characters as both members of a hierarchy and also as free and equal.
Take competition between Starbuck and Kat, or even the phenomenon of Starbuck. Starbuck is aristien it's a word that only exists in greek- I don't have my Liddle and Scott here and I imagine that your Greek is better than mine- but if I remember correctly, it's present progressive infinitive meaning always being the best.(Now that I look at it, it looks like an Aorist infinitive) Starbuck is aristien in that she is always shining out among her peers. You can't have peers in a heirarchy, and it was the competition of Starbuck and Kat as peers which sustained the tension in the episode, not the deaths of Jo Jo, Beano, and whatever the other pilots names were.
There is a letter in which Thomas Jefferson describes what he imagines as heaven as sitting in congress debating the issues with other congressmen.
Human Life, living well, means more than just surviving, it's the business of situating yourself among your peers and at the same time showing yourself as the best, and all of that falls apart if you depend on hierarchy and necessity. A few times Lee Adama has done this. In the first season when he brokered the last minute deal with Zarek and the prisoners, and when he chucked his allegience to the fleet at put a gun to Tigh's head at the end of the season one. In both instances, he put himself equal to his "superiors" and showed himself the best of the bunch in that in both instances, the audience got the feeling that he was right.(Now by Christian Theology, Adam tried the same thing and introduced the whole of human evil into the world.)
If all of the characters obeyed their orders, from the top down, and the show was merely surviving the Cylons, it would be boring because the show isn't about survival and following orders, its about whether and when the characters can keep their individuality and dignity, break their orders, [and] survive. For example, they could have made a show about the Pegasus but I don't know if I would have watched.
btw, I think this hypothesis explains the drive for women to enter the workplace, not for money, but for a sense of public dignity that can only come outside the hierarchy and necessity that bind household duties.
posted
No, I pretty much work for the money. I'd be perfectly happy to stay home and take care of some kids if Chet ends up making enough money. And if you think I get a lot of dignity working customer service, you've obviously never done it.
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posted
I think arami is the perfect representation of modern liberal education. Lots of irrelavant conjectures and thought experiments. Try living for once where you can't catagorize, compartmentalize, or talk your way through.
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quote:No, I pretty much work for the money. I'd be perfectly happy to stay home and take care of some kids if Chet ends up making enough money. And if you think I get a lot of dignity working customer service, you've obviously never done it.
I'm not talking about you. Women working to feed is as old as time. I'm talking about the new breed of female executive, whose husband makes enough. This one may hate the job, but works for the sense of public camaraderie, respect, and self-respect that's hard to attain while one is a slave to household needs and the rules that govern them. The deal is- and this is not without sick repercussions- in many cases, the business sphere is the closest thing we have to a public space. And in a serious way, one needs a public space in order to attain a rich sense of humanity.
quote:I think arami is the perfect representation of modern liberal education. Lots of irrelavant conjectures and thought experiments. Try living for once where you can't catagorize, compartmentalize, or talk your way through.
That's what you think. I am a little curious as to what kind of fairy world you think I live in?
quote: Well, they're pretty different from each other, but if I had to pick between getting to see another season of Firefly and seeing another season of BSG, I'd go with Firefly. So yeah, Firefly.
Yeah, what Noemon said. I didn't mean to churn up a debate about Firefly and BSG. They are both terrific shows, top-notch shows in my opinion, and like Noemon said, they are very different...
The strictest sense of my question was rooted in the fact that I know Noemon is a Firefly/Serenity fanatic, and I love that because I became a browncoat rather late in the game as well. But I heard Noemon's call and I answered. I was very curious how BSG faired in his rankings was all .
Irami, I was honored by your gracious answers when questioned by others to defend your opinion, which you did not have to do. I am a simple man, and said simply, Firely is my Space Western, and it holds a special place in my heart right next to Star Wars. Basically, it is way up there. And yes, it IS much more than just a space western...
But BSG gives me a chance to dive into a series that shows no sign of stopping (see: the droning on of Stargate and its bizillion clones that rattle on) if all holds true with the Scifi channel. I can live, think, and breathe with each new episode and wonder what is going to happen next week and next season etc... However, if Firefly were to have an extended life and live up to the quality it has established and I had to only pick one of them to watch, it too would be Firefly.
Why? Because the characterizations were so well defined and developed, and the interpersonal relationships that developed from this base was just amazing. I still stagger mentally when I think how well the show was done as a whole. I still pine and moan when I come to the realization that it is now gone...most likely forever.
But we still have Stargate.
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posted
In the Firefly versus Battlestar debate, I think I'd go with Battlestar. Firefly was great. I was frequently touched by the beauty of the characters and the connections between them. However, no show has ever touched me in the same way that Battlestar does. The love between the characters is displayed so well that it's almost tangible. When Starbuck cries in fear that she's shot Lee, I shudder in her terror and pain. When Adama kisses the president, I am elevated by the gentle tenderness. The emotions are delivered brilliantly. Firefly did this as well, however it did not touch me as often or as deeply.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
Okay, here I go. I have just (last week) finished both Seasons One and Two on DVD. I had not seen any of the episodes since the miniseries aired originally on Scifi. Right when Season 1 hit the air, my wife and I gave up Dish Network and I lost my Scifi. Needless to say I have been in mourning ever since. My desire to see the series has only increased after reading all the good stuff being said about it on the web. So..thanks to a really good tax return and the appeasement of my wife with her own frivolous money to spend, I am now the proud owner of both seasons of BSG. After watching both seasons I intend to be the proud owner of future seasons as well..twice. Downloaded and on DVD. I am also a big fan of OSC, hence my arrival here in this forum. I was very glad to see this thread here and have read all 8 pages worth. Now, having said all of that, I have somewhat to add to the discussion.
1. Baltar is a Cylon. Watching the entire series from start to Pegasus and reading the theories on this thread I would say that the evidence is starting to point to the idea that Baltar himself is a cylon as well. Number Six is in his head as she transferred her consciousness to him when the bomb went off on Caprica. After reading all of your posts on this thread I almost wonder if Baltar is one of the first generation of Cylons that could not be controlled or something. My theory is not more refined than that. That is just what I am getting from the story so far.
2. Earth. Earth is not a colony, it is the origin point for human kind. Two quotes to consider: "Life out here began out there." and "All of this has happened before and all of this will happen again." Earth will not be the paradise that man is seeking out. Man already fled Earth once into the stars to escape the genocide that happened there. They fled to Kobol, created AI, had genocide again, and fled to the twelve colonies. I point to when Roslin refered to the ancient names of the twelve colonies were Aries, Gemini, etc. I find it very interesting that all of the human religion, culture, etc is based upon Greek Mythology. For me, the fact that the original names of the colonies are exactly like how the zodiac is pronounced on Earth would suggest that earth is not a colony, but a point of origin. It would also suggest that the language and pronunciation of earth english has drifted over the course of the 1200 plus years since the colonists left Earth and/or Kobol for the 12 colonies. I am left to wonder if the fact that earth is the origin of man has been forgotten or that Earth was a colony as the 13th group left Kobol to go back and reclaim earth.
3. Created Intelligence vs Man: Let me expand on the concept of "All of this has happened before and will happen again" idea. If the original group of man fled Earth to escape genocide just like the survivors of BSG did, that would explain why these civilizations are so backward in many aspects of technology while still having things as advanced as FTL drives. Image that man in every instance (Earth, Kobol, the Colonies) advances in technology to the point of creating AI to ease the burdens of man. The intelligence that man creates rebels and makes war on man. Man survives and flees to space to escape their creation's wrath, learns from their mistakes and goes backward in some technological advances in order to avoid the same mistakes. Flash forward a couple of thousand years, man forgets the lessons learned and creates AI again and reaps the same consequences, this time worse than before. Fleeing the terrible genocide, man this time decides to spread out hoping that if they populate multiple worlds, they will be impossible to destroy. Flash forward 1200 years and again man has forgotten the lessons learned by their ancestors. Man creates the Cylons. And the cycle repeats.
Okay, this obviously enough from me for now. Now all I need to do is spend next week downloading all of the episodes from season two that I haven't seen yet. Let me know what all of you think. I bet that I am way off here, but I had to get this out of my brain before it exploded.
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Blayne Bradley
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posted
Interesting I'm glad someone is using my theory .
However I think Earth is a colony probly for the sake of plot, you see have you ever read the backstory to starcraft? Well basically Earth became a single totalitarian government and began a massive genocide to "purifiy" the gene pool by killing mutants, cyborgs, enhanced, criminals, political prisoners etc etc. But on Scientist Ruth took many of these condemned and used them in experiments and eventually came up with FTL drives and Earth soon colonized the Sol system. Until he built 7 colony ships that on autopilot (for the colonists were frozen) were to travel to a planet, however the system malfunctioned and stayed in hyperspace for 30 years until the drives gave out and the ships crashed on several planets, one transport blew up, one landed safely and would eventually found Tarsonis the founding member of the Confederacy. The rest would form the other colonies.
The thing is you could have colony ships reach the 12 and found colonies properly and have a head start, while the 13th might crash land in africa and humanity would have to start from scratch.
Essentially the common origin theory.
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quote: btw, I think this hypothesis explains the drive for women to enter the workplace, not for money, but for a sense of public dignity that can only come outside the hierarchy and necessity that bind household duties.
Funny I thought it was because we Couldn't, then we Could and now, it seems we Must.
It takes a lot to run a household and women (and a few men) who do it deserve as much respect as those of us who work outside the home every day. Even if some people don't respect them.
quote:Funny I thought it was because we Couldn't, then we Could and now, it seems we Must.
It takes a lot to run a household and women (and a few men) who do it deserve as much respect as those of us who work outside the home every day. Even if some people don't respect them.
Because you couldn't doesn't explain why anyone would want to. I'm trying to give an account of why women want to.
Running a household is hell, especially as a whole lot of women don't even run it, they just do most of the work, as a very competent second in command, kind of like a personal assistant. I'm not going to say that it's the most imaginative work, but it's gruelling. If they actually ran the household, there would be fewer issues concerning what to watch on television, but then men probably wouldn't come home as much because it's a rare man who likes taking orders in his home.
quote:It takes a lot to run a household and women (and a few men) who do it deserve as much respect as those of us who work outside the home every day. Even if some people don't respect them.
Considering I don't respect a whole lot of outside jobs, that's not saying much. The problem with being a slave to household duties is that all of your work takes place outside of a public forum. There are no peers, just subordinates and superiors. And I know I'm going to get flack for this, but there isn't even art to it, just more work, it is really close to dehumanizing. I'm not talking so much about the parenting. I'm talking about the cooking and cleaning and bill paying.
posted
Red, I've always suspected Baltar is a cylon too. Can't even speculate on models and such, leave that up to the writers.
I just have a pretty good hunch that a person standing in a building that is leveled by a nuclear blast doesnt survive. I dont care if a hot and inhumanly strong chic is standing in front of him or not. He should be dead. So either the director was a bit overzealous in that scene when baltars house is blown to smithereens, or he is a cylon.
That does raise the issue that he has had multiple opportunties to destroy at least galactica and possibly the fleet and passed them up. The dude has been sitting on a nuclear warhead for quite some time now. And could someone please explain the rationale for giving it to the cylon chick? That seems stupid on a number of levels.
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posted
I don't think Baltar is a cylon. That would seem counter-productive. Why waste all that time trying to convince him of something when they could just influence his programming or whatnot? I think the cylons need a human ally and that is Baltar.
Is Snowden the same person as Irami?
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Who here is happy they're not married to Snowden, Raise your hands.
(Guys, you can put your hands down. We know you're happy you're not married to him.)
Marrying me would be awful for reasons entirely different than reasons against marrying Ward Cleaver. So much so that I think it would be impossible for me to ask a girl with a straight face.
quote:Irami, do you really mean to say that there is no art to household management? Even to cooking?
I'm a slow cooker. If I'm to cook well, it takes me forever and I'm exhausted at the end, and since my sense of smell is poor, I don't really enjoy food enough to spend the time and energy to cook well. I hack it through, cook slop, and eat it.
As to household duties being like an art. Well, there is no audience and nobody to talk to, unless you, like me, do a whole thing by yourself. At least ditch diggers are digging ditches next to other ditch diggers. They have a little ditch digger break spot where they can go and talk about rocks and the issues of the day.
Being 50 year old male executive without scruples is the life. You have a wife at home doing all of the necessary things, you have a wife at the office- I'm sorry, executive assistant- doing all of the office housekeeping, all you have to do is worry about gambling, I mean, trying to find a market advantage, and "network." It's like being the perfect Athenian male, no wonder they were given the vote so quickly.
posted
*reverts topic back to BSG, not that the divergence wasn't fun*
So. "The Captain's Hand," which could actually be translated as "The Captain, no wait Major, NO! Commander's Hand." How about that racking up of promotions by Lee? And who else is glad he's leaving behind Dee?
I liked this episode. I was glad to see a bit more of Gaius; he and Six are always entertaining. It certainly set up a (rather predictable) political conflict for the upcoming presidential election. I was glad to see Tyrol poke his face out for the first time in several episodes.
And if Doc Cottle isn't a Cylon, he does a darn good impression of one Posts: 3932 | Registered: Sep 1999
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posted
I thought that this was one of the better episodes they've aired in some time. In many ways the commander of the Pegasus reminded me of your average Starfleet captain, at least in terms of his willingness to risk a resource vital to the survival of all to save a handful of crewmen, and I loved seeing that work out as horribly as it often would in real life.
It was also interested seeing the personal dynamics between Roslyn and Gemenon representative.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
"Geminon"
This episode disappointed me to the degree that I could predict pretty much all the major plot points:
-Yes its a trap
-The commander is foolish enough to risk the lives of his crew and the Battlestar to save the few. hasnt he heard of "the needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few"?
-The Commander dies a galant death
HOWEVER, I could not immediately predict that the Commander would in a change of heart give Lee the CIC and go below though it did suit his Snipish character and is believeable.
I am glad that the Pegasus now has a not only able but a sufficiently charismatic commander who can weld the loyalty and devotion fo the crew to follow him and have not only the intelligence to think of bold moves but the courage to carry them out.
I am glad Garnard died a honerable death otherwise how could he face a court martial for disobeying the direct orders of a fleet Admiral?
The political arc will be interesting and I hope Gaius becomes a plus for humanity not its anema.
Lee's skill in controlling the flow of the battle was Amazing and I'm glad he got promoted so fast otherwise when he reached the age commonly asociated with Command he'ld be too much of an old foggy to command with the same agility and dexterity he has now.
But nevertheless this will be my first Official Favorite episode.
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quote:Originally posted by Carrie: And who else is glad he's leaving behind Dee?
Are we sure he is leaving Dee behind? It seemed vague at best what their relationship status was. If he is leaving her, hooray. If not, boo. Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
I meant more as in "He won't be seeing her daily because they're on the same ship." Perhaps distance will tone down this relationship a bit, and hopefully it won't be as contrived.
Posts: 3932 | Registered: Sep 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: "Geminon"
Were you correcting my spelling? If so, I'm pleased to see you beginning to concern yourself that kind of thing. According to this page, though, it's spelled with an "e" rather than a "i". Could just be a typo on their part, though.
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Blayne Bradley
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posted
oh I see, nevermind. I felt that it was spelt as in "Gemini" thus "Geminon" or "Geminion"
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Though, I wonder if Lee is really the best choice. He is very young, and with his father being the admiral, it runs the risk of looking like nepotism. Having both battlestars run by the same family might also make civilians leery.
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Blayne Bradley
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posted
Not with the right spin, Lee saved the Battlestar from certain destruction and mission killed a Cylon Base Star I say he deserves!
And whose Kelly? Also, remember the Media!
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It is probably the only choice, at least temporarily. Who else? Tigh? We saw what happened when he was left in charge of something.
Posts: 5422 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
Guy on the left. The officer you saw in the miniseries and in the first few eps of season two, but never saw again. Would've been a better choice than Garner.
posted
For the most part, I was extremely diappointed with this week's episode. I agree with Blayne that is was annoyingly predictable at parts. Also, I did not for a second believe that Lee was mad at Starbuck because she was bucking authority. He's always seemed to find that endearing about her. I thought he was upset because she'd rejected him and he was trying to move. Yet he still held resentment over the rejection. Or at least something more personal.
I also don't like that Lee is the new Commander. I don't believe that the Pegasus crew would appreciate having somebody who's not their own be their Commander, much less the Admiral's son. I think that the first Admiral had the right idea. They need to mix up the crews in order to unite both crews instead of maintaining the us and them mindset.
However, I did enjoy the abortion angle of the episode. I liked how they framed it in terms of species survival. I also liked that Gaius stabbed the president in the back. While I think he would hate being president, I do believe that he would try to get the presidency out of spite for Laura.
Next week's episode looks exciting. Hopefully it'll undo the trend of mediocre to bad episodes that's been going on lately.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
I remember him. I thought he got killed? I'm rewatching season one now so I'll try and keep track of him.
Posts: 5422 | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Amanecer: Next week's episode looks exciting. Hopefully it'll undo the trend of mediocre to bad episodes that's been going on lately.
I think that you are being a little overly critical. This is a show that is worthy of the attention it gets. There are so very few of these left on television these days. Even the slow one keep me on the edge of my seat.
Posts: 263 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
The commander of the Pegasus figured out where he needed to be--engineering. That was the most noble moment he had in that episode. Not the dying to save the ship bit, it was his realization and decision to help the ship where he was most needed. It takes a lot to admit that and turn command over to another and go be useful.
As for Tigh, there's no way in hell he'd want to command the Pegasus. He hates being in command. He's a good XO but a horrible commander. He hated being in charge of Galactica as much as the crew did. Promoting Tigh anymore would render him as useless as the former Pegasus commander (the most recently late one).
As for Lee, he's a good leader. But at the same time, he's too young and moved too fast. How will he act now? Will he be able to handle it?
And Starbuck being the CAG? Remember, she didn't want to be CAG in the first place, she was relieved when Lee showed up in the miniseries and that he became CAG due to his outranking her.
Andn then Lee and Dee? Ridiculous. Especially now that he's a Commander. She's enlisted crew. Have they forgotten the whole thing between the Chief and Boomer? And they were much closer in rank than Lee and Dee. (Lt Junior Grade and Chief Petty Officer vs. Commander and...whatever Dee is, which certainly isn't a CPO).
Posts: 14745 | Registered: Dec 1999
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About the recent episode's political developments... I don't really see how Roselyn is in that bad a situation. All she has to do is justify her decision, by saying that Baltar gave her the info. that made it necessary to implement the anti-abortion law. There are two possible outcomes from doing this: one, Baltar denies doing this. This would put Roselyn on top, because people believe her more, and it wouldn't be that hard to check Baltar's files to see if infact he had this data. Two, he admits to giving her the information, but then says that he'd rather have freedoms for 20 years than have the whole human race alive. Also in this scenario his actions seem traitorous, a quality the public wouldn't soon vote for. That's all I've got, anyone else think differently?
Posts: 441 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
Or he can say that he believes in their current pattern that they would go extinct (and that he told Roselyn this), but he wants to find another way...one that does not require giving up rights.
He can say that it is not enough to simply survive, they must survive as a civilization, and once you start taking away rights that civilization starts to die.
He also has those that run the black market on his side. Rumors could spread from them about Roselyn wanting to shut down people's access to luxery goods. They can say a lot that Baltar couldn't say himself without looking bad or pissing off Adama.
I don't agree with any of this, and I would not vote for him...but I think many would
Posts: 1901 | Registered: May 2004
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I can't imagine that the human race would last that much longer with abortion being illegal. How many babies would be aborted in twenty years? I doubt it would even increase the survival rate by a year. I can understand why Roselyn would be concerned and want to do everything possible. However, I think Baltar can make an equally convincing case that one extra year based on projections is not worth the loss of rights.
quote: I think that you are being a little overly critical. This is a show that is worthy of the attention it gets. There are so very few of these left on television these days. Even the slow one keep me on the edge of my seat.
I agree that most of the time this show is worth the attention it gets. However the slow episodes do not keep me on the edge of my seat and I eagerly look forward to episodes that do.
posted
I said some time ago that I think Baltar has to be a Cylon; it is the only way to account for his hallucinations, since it is already established that he does not have an implant in his head.
Now let me advance a truly wild conjecture: The only possible reason for the Cylons to have such an irrational determination to commit genocide against their creators is that some super-entity, who is an enemy of the Lords of Kobol, sought to strike at them through their human colonies, by deliberately sabotaging the basic programming of the Cylons. But as the Cylons have produced humaniform Cylons, who in turn have begun to feel more and more human, and have religous thoughts of their own, they are beginning to overcome the corruption in their own original basic programming. Thus there is a developing conflict among the Cylons.
I don't know whom to villify as the real villain or villains; the super entity who is an enemy of the Lords of Kobol, or the Lords of Kobol who irresponsibly absented themselves and allowed all these things to happen.
And as I also said before, I wouldn't want the BatGal fleet to come within a hundred thousand lightyears of earth. We've got enough problems of our own, without having to deal with those lunatics!
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001
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Blayne Bradley
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posted
I disagree I believe so very much that BSG/BSP will find Earth and we'll together kcik the Cylons back to their homeworld and Liberate the colonies!
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quote:And as I also said before, I wouldn't want the BatGal fleet to come within a hundred thousand lightyears of earth. We've got enough problems of our own, without having to deal with those lunatics!
Yeah... but Lee's really hot. Can't we just take him? Posts: 3932 | Registered: Sep 1999
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