posted
Didn't have to be jazzed up for me. If had played exactly as it did but removed the bits where the heroes strolled up to Sylar before striking, I'd have been OK. But as it was portrayed, why the heck didn't Sylar win?
How come he can't stop Hiro's 15-foot charge but he could stop Parkman's bullets? Why couldn't he hear Niki coming up behind him?
The audience should have been put in Sylar's position, so that when a hero stepped up we were just as startled as he was. If I have time to see Hiro coming, so does Sylar, and Hiro should be dead. It needed better pacing.
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posted
He could easily have been betting that Hiro would again punk out and not actually go through with it. Had Hiro wanted to, he could have easily killed Sylar when he was given the chance at Sylar's mother's house.
Maybe he has to actively turn on certain powers, rather than them being passive abilities, and at that time, he chose not to have superhearing activated.
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posted
I think that superhearing would be a very situational power. It didn't seem to just amplify soft sounds so that they were audible, but all sounds across the board. Being in a fight for his life with guns firing and other Heroes crashing into things, I could see how Sylar might not 'activate' his super hearing, just to avoid the resulting cacophony in his head, making him lose his concentration.
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cacophony: [kuh-kof-uh-nee]1. harsh discordance of sound; dissonance: a cacophony of hoots, cackles, and wails. 2. a discordant and meaningless mixture of sounds: the cacophony produced by city traffic at midday. 3. Music. frequent use of discords of a harshness and relationship difficult to understand.
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posted
I was really sad to see Nathan go, but at the same time I do hope he's actually dead and they don't think of some sort of loop hole to let him live.
The episode was great, but I also had some problems with the way they chose to handle some of the ending sequence. That's the problem with setting up so many people with special powers, when they don't use them to their full extent we feel cheated(matrix sequels anyone?).
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posted
As far as I can tell, no one officially died in that episode. Not even Syler. We did not see Nathan die, only fly with his brother up into the sky. We also know Peter can stay up there on his own and Nathan can move VERY quickly in the sky so there's no definite reason to think Nathan -- or anyone else -- is dead.
I was a little disappointed in the episode. Not hugely disappointed, but a little bit. They replayed so much footage at the beginning, for one thing. If I wanted to rewatch last week's episode I could have seen it on-line!
I guess as a climax, it fell a little flat. The best episode was still "Five Years Gone" and this paled in comparison. I never for a minute thought New York was in danger, although I did not know how it would be saved. The best part was Nathan becoming a real man.
Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
I'm with Chris on this one--Chris's fight scene is 10 times better than the one I saw. I really like Chris' idea of quicker pacing during the fight with more urgency...and I think more characters needed to be involved. Sylar should have been much more powerful and creative with his abilities--able to fight all of the heroes easily as they all try to attack him. As Peter is choking, he starts absorbing Sylar's powers, allowing him to drop out of the choke hold and fight back. Sylar becomes overwhelmed and Hiro lands the final blow.
I feel like a lot of people are rationalizing for what I see as gaping holes in this final scene. Sure, maybe Sylar might be able to turn off some powers, or maybe only do one at a time--but I didn't see any evidence of that in the show. What we do know is that 100% of the rest of the time, he's been practically unbeatable, and suddenly, for his final fight, he's a wimp. I mean, they beat him EASILY. I'm dissapointed.
Peter should have been able to fly away on his own--the writers gave no clue as to why he couldn't--I don't like having to explain it ourselves on the forum like "Oh, he was too overwhelmed by the radioactivity." It's bad writing if we have to cover these holes ourselves.
Not to mention that it still doesn't sit well with me that he just suddenly can't control the radioactivity. In the few hours that pass between the time he meets Ted and the time he gets carried off by Nathan, Peter didn't think "maybe I should learn to control this thing so I don't blow up tonight." He had the powers--it's like he was just accepting that he couldn't control it--and that he would conveniently blow up after killing Sylar and "someone HAS to shoot me or I'll blow up."
I just think they could have done this so much better. I'm not trying to be overly negative--but people seem to be defending the choices the writers made and covering these holes when I think they're obviously mistakes.
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posted
Launchywiggin: I don't think you're being overly negative. I think you're calling it like you see it. I agreed with every word. It was all part of the complete disappointment I felt as I watched that episode. I'm not sure if Heroes will keep me watching next year or not. The writing has been sloppy, inconsistent, and lacking in any dramatic tension. Dragging things out creates boredom not tension, as does withholding information.
The show had promise. That's why I watched for so long. But it never fulfilled that promise. Now I have to decide if I like Hiro enough to stick with it for another season. :=)
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posted
Does the eclipse have any significance? I mean, heck, it's the logo for the show, it showed up in the first episode, and now in the last of the season. I can't help but think that it has greater function that cinematic bookends (or should one say 'filmends'?) to the season.
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quote:Originally posted by Launchywiggin: I'm with Chris on this one--Chris's fight scene is 10 times better than the one I saw. I really like Chris' idea of quicker pacing during the fight with more urgency...and I think more characters needed to be involved. Sylar should have been much more powerful and creative with his abilities--able to fight all of the heroes easily as they all try to attack him. As Peter is choking, he starts absorbing Sylar's powers, allowing him to drop out of the choke hold and fight back. Sylar becomes overwhelmed and Hiro lands the final blow.
Agreed...Chris's fight scene sounded quite a bit cooler.
quote:I feel like a lot of people are rationalizing for what I see as gaping holes in this final scene. Sure, maybe Sylar might be able to turn off some powers, or maybe only do one at a time--but I didn't see any evidence of that in the show. What we do know is that 100% of the rest of the time, he's been practically unbeatable, and suddenly, for his final fight, he's a wimp. I mean, they beat him EASILY. I'm dissapointed. Peter should have been able to fly away on his own--the writers gave no clue as to why he couldn't--I don't like having to explain it ourselves on the forum like "Oh, he was too overwhelmed by the radioactivity." It's bad writing if we have to cover these holes ourselves.
It made sense to me why he couldn't just teleport away or fly away. The writers spent quite some time earlier in the season establishing that Peter (the entire episode with the Invisible Man) struggled with control of his powers. IIRC, he needed to concentrate on the person whose power he had absorbed in order to make it work. The simple reflex method of throwing him off a building didn't work. Also, during the fight with Sylar when Sylar tried to take his brain, he couldn't go invisible and use telekinesis (or flying, etc) at the same time. That's what got him nailed with the glass.
quote: Not to mention that it still doesn't sit well with me that he just suddenly can't control the radioactivity. In the few hours that pass between the time he meets Ted and the time he gets carried off by Nathan, Peter didn't think "maybe I should learn to control this thing so I don't blow up tonight." He had the powers--it's like he was just accepting that he couldn't control it--and that he would conveniently blow up after killing Sylar and "someone HAS to shoot me or I'll blow up."
Again, I felt that the writers laid the groundwork for us to buy into this with the whole early Ted storyline. He struggled on and off for control of his power for quite some time. It would apparently just come and go, much as it does with Peter. To me, suddenly having him have fine control over his power after a few hours, when it took Ted weeks or months would have been inconsistent.
He accepted his death and was willing to sacrifice himself after beating Sylar. He was resigned to the fact that he would die, but also wanted to be a Hero since Episode 1. He bought into the idea that if he wasn't there, then Sylar couldn't be stopped, and was willing to accept the consequences that even upon winning he would probably die. Works well with the idealistic saving the world attitude that he's consistently had.
quote: I just think they could have done this so much better. I'm not trying to be overly negative--but people seem to be defending the choices the writers made and covering these holes when I think they're obviously mistakes.
It's a catch-22 for the writers. If they leave us with parts that we need to fill in the blanks for ourselves, then they left gaping plot holes. If they wrap everything up nice and neatly, then they're not respecting the intelligence of the audience by explaining everything to us like we're a bunch of kindergarteners.
The episode was a good story finale that left me wanting more.
Posts: 1412 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote: Earlier in the episode, Peter collapsed on the pavement and somehow ended up in his past, which played like a cross between a Coca-Cola commercial and a Hallmark ad.
“Your heart has the ability to love unconditionally,” a dying Charles (Richard Roundtree) told him.
Someone needs to remind creator/writer Tim Kring that viewers don’t have the innate power to process so much sugar.
posted
Well, for one, a friend of mine had a baby last year that they named Noah. So there's the personal connection.
Second, they played games with us all season long as to the identity of HRG, aka Mr. Bennett. Remember the scene were Mrs. Bennett almost gave it away while talking with Sylar?
posted
About the whole "Sylar was too easy to kill thing".. I was thinking.. maybe there was a part of him that wanted to be killed. He wanted to be the hero (like he told Peter as he was dying). He didn't want to blow up so many people, and there was definetly some conflicting desires in his head (please mom, take powers, spare innocents, be the hero, etc.). I don't think it's so odd that he let himself die so easilly. Also, Niki hit him pretty hard, and he couldn't have expected that.
Posts: 441 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
OK, folks, Armchair Director Does "Heroes Finale," take two.
The rest of the show, I would change only two things.
DL is lying, dying, in Linderman's office while NIKI urges him up, as before. Make this bigger, he has to get up and get them out, the guards will be there any second, so he finally drags himself up and PUSHES her through the WALL. NIKI turns, exhuberant, to see that it was his last act to get her safe. Only half of him made it through before he died.
And in the Sylar/Hiro standoff earlier on, I would do this:
================== SYLAR So we'll just have to see if you can go through time faster than--
HIRO disappears. SYLAR whips back around to see ANDO gone. ==================
The way it was done, Sylar had all the time he needed and more to kill Ando. The director is showing us too much, it gets harder to accept that the other people in the shot don't have the same time to react.
And then the final scene, with as few changes to the original as possible:
================== SYLAR turns away from where he's just returned PARKMAN's bullets.
PETER and SYLAR face off.
SYLAR You can't stop it, you know.
PETER But I'm going to.
PETER makes the first move, GESTURING. SYLAR backs up a step, hurt, but SMILES and GESTURES back. PETER staggers; SYLAR is better at this.
PETER goes INVISIBLE.
SYLAR reacts, looks around, then gets an INVISIBLE PUNCH in the face.
NIKI is holding the kids next to PARKMAN. BENNET is trying to get a clear shot at SYLAR. MOHINDER is trying to help PARKMAN while marveling at the display of powers.
NIKI What the hell is going on?
BENNET The end of the world.
SYLAR gets hit again, then we IRIS in on his ear as he LISTENS. Quick as snakebite he THRUSTS his hand out to the side and we see PETER appear, hurtling through the air and then STOPPING, hanging in midair and choking. PETER gasps and clutches at his neck.
SYLAR Let's try this again...
SYLAR lifts his finger and starts to do his cutty thing, but a PARKING METER catches him upside the head. NIKI SWINGS it around and brings it down on him but SYLAR throws an arm up and the parking meter STOPS a foot away. NIKI pulls it back and SWINGS it down again; it stops but BENDS a little from the impact. SYLAR is sweating, now, he's not used to holding out against that kind of strength, but he manages to hurl the meter away, NIKI going with it.
SYLAR gets up. We see PETER, still coughing, kneeling a few feet away. SYLAR steps forward... and HIRO appears in front of him.
SYLAR grabs at him but HIRO's gone already. SYLAR HEARS a rustle and moves to the left in time to avoid HIRO's sword coming at him from behind. SYLAR dodges wildly as HIRO pops in and out dozens of times, all around him, badgering him until, dazed, SYLAR faces PETER, who decks him.
PETER (yelling) Everybody get out of here! He could still go!
SYLAR looks up from the ground. He chuckles.
SYLAR You don't understand, do you? I've seen it. The explosion. It's you.
SYLAR stands up and GRABS PETER's arms.They struggle. PETER reacts to the proximity of so many powers in one person; we see him losing it and we see him realize he's losing it. Maybe different aspects of the abilities happen around him. He's starting to GLOW.
SYLAR I'm the hero!
SYLAR lets go of PETER, who falls to the ground, revealing HIRO behind him. Before anyone can react, HIRO stabs SYLAR.
SYLAR curls up, flinging out an arm. HIRO is thrown away and VANISHES. SYLAR collapses; his EYES turn WHITE and we see images flashing across them, ending in himself lying there.
NIKI, MOLLY, MICAH, and BENNET approach. PETER is glowing more brightly now and obviously in pain. He SCREAMS and tries to LAUNCH himself up but only gets a few feet before dropping again.
PETER I can't hold it! I can't...
The same destructive, radioactive glow we saw Ted release in Bennet's house begins to emanate from PETER and everyone scrambles back from him. BENNET raises the gun but can't see PETER clearly.
BENNET Dammit, I can't--
CLAIRE (coming from behind him) I can.
She grabs the gun from a surprised BENNET's hand and RUNS towards the maelstrom. PETER sees her.
PETER (screaming) DO IT!
CLAIRE raises the gun, crying. Her skin starts to REDDEN and PEEL. Her finger tightens on the trigger.
A CAR comes hurtling around the corner and blocks her. NATHAN jumps out, pushing an incredibly pissed off ANGELA and rushing both her and CLAIRE to relative safety with the others.
ANGELA You can't do this! This has to happen! You're throwing it all away!
NATHAN Have to, mom. Like you said, the city needs me. (winks at CLAIRE) I love you.
NATHAN turns towards PETER, who reacts.
PETER No, Nathan, you can't--
NATHAN FLIES over, grabs PETER, and rises incredibly quickly into the sky.
ANGELA (screaming) NATHAN!!!
Now we're with the brothers in midair, at incredible speed. NATHAN's skin is BLISTERING fast.
PETER No! You'll die!
NATHAN But they won't. You won't. (gasps in pain) Love you, bro. Tell Heidi and the kids I--
Explosion.
======================
Fill in whatever dialogue I forgot that seems appropriate. Close with some of the heroes getting away before the cops arrive -- how the heck are they going to explain this? Why wasn't everyone hauled off for questioning? And I've heard rumors that Nathan appears next season so the closing bit would have to accomodate whatever hanging plot points might exist that I don't know about.
But, same general plot, paced better and with fewer "why doesn't he just...?" questions. We get to see various heroes work together. We get to see Angela's reaction to Nathan's sacrifice, which frankly I felt cheated out of. And we don't have people wasting time on emotional goodbye scenes when there's a freaking bomb about to happen.
Obviously your opinion (and Mr. Kring's) will vary.
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I'll be taking a swing at ScriptFrenzy.org next month, (see next week's column!). Everyone can mock my progress then.
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posted
A much better approach to a scene you already improved on Chris!
One question, why do you think Angela would go with Nathan to see a Peter she firmly believes IS going to explode?
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
In terms of the reactions, I wouldn't be surprised if the first episode of the second seasons shows us the events leading up to the final battle, like Nathan and his mom, and also Peter and Nathan in the air.
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posted
I don't think she'd go willingly, but I can see him dragging her there. Mainly after hating her all through the episode I wanted to see her reaction to her plans being thwarted, and that was the easiest way. Given more time, I'd have a smoother method. This is a fast and dirty patch to what I thought kept me from really enjoying the story.
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posted
I kind of got the impression Sylar was sort of fatalistic about the whole situation. The vibe I've been getting from him is "I'm just playing my part". I think he was trying half-heartedly to be in control of his own destiny, but really he'd given up on it and was accepting of what was happening.
And about Peter absorbing Sylar's power - He's had Matt's power for quite a while now and it just now manifested. Same with Hiro's, except it hasn't manifested (or he hasn't used it) yet. It's like if he knows he has the power, it becomes much easier for him to access. Ones he doesn't know about (hearing, ice, metal liquidation, whatever Sylar got from Charlie, Hiro's power, now Molly's power, Jessica/Niki's power, etc etc etc) seem to take quite a while to force their way into use.
And about Sylar not using all his powers - I thought that was kind of the point of the scene with his mom. Using powers takes concentration and even in a peaceful environment like that, Sylar lost control while using two powers (ice and telekinesis). So it's not all that surprising to me that he wasn't able to focus on 3 people at once, especially with the fact that his clock ticker thing that shows him how things work must've been working overtime with so many heroes around.
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posted
While I liked the episode overall, I think that Chris's scene was much better than the real one.
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posted
Again, amazing scene, Chris. Seriously. I got goosebumps just reading your scene and imagining how it played out.
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posted
It's also more than possible someone else could do it much better. It's just... there was no urgency in the scene, and it desperately needed some. We were told that it was urgent, we were given dialogue to suggest that it was urgent, but the director seemed more intent on showing how everybody felt at the time and that doesn't work for me when city-wide destruction is supposedly imminent.
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Launchywiggin: I'm with Chris on this one--Chris's fight scene is 10 times better than the one I saw. I really like Chris' idea of quicker pacing during the fight with more urgency...
Maybe they'll do a George Lucas and do it Chris's way on the DVD.
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quote: It's just... there was no urgency in the scene, and it desperately needed some. We were told that it was urgent, we were given dialogue to suggest that it was urgent, but the director seemed more intent on showing how everybody felt at the time and that doesn't work for me when city-wide destruction is supposedly imminent.
Exactly. That's exactly how I felt about it. That whole last scene was 'Meh' and it should have been "Holy Frak!!" The final scene in 5 years Gone was like that. My sister and I were hitting the ceiling when Sylar and Peter started going at it. I expected the finale to be just as urgent, just as thrilling. Alas.
Chris, I wish I could round up the money it would take for you to film that ending. I'd tack it onto the DVD extras. Posts: 6415 | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
i always got the impression that peter really couldnt do more than one of his powers at the same time. Until the future episode, where hes had 5 years to develope it.
Also, after nikki hit him, i think the idea was that peter absorbed nikki's strangth (and probably the anger that usually preceeds it) and Sylar was allowing peter to "ignite" from the anger so that he wouldn't be the vilian. Hiro did take to long, and why stab him when you can cut his head off? he actually had the time and even the swing to stab-turn around-head off while turning... but then you couldnt have had the ending it had with the samurai. Which looked like George Takea in the outfit so it could be interesting.
but seriously.... dont mention "far worse than the boogey man" unless you kill the boogeyman....
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posted
I'm really not that surprised how easily Sylar was beaten, it's the first time ever that he has faced a concerted effort from multiple Hero foes.
And I really don't see Hiro being able to pop in and out all over the place that rapidly, his control over his power is nowhere near that finetuned yet.
But there are elements of your version that I like better Chris. DL dying isn't one of them, but I like parts of it.
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posted
Here's a question. What is Nikki's power? If it's only super-strength then why does she have her dead sister's voice in her head? Maybe she takes the abilities of a dead person but with the side effect of also taking the person's personality. If this is so, then her hitting Sylar over the head with the parking meter was a way for the director to get her close enough to Peter for him to take her power. It sounds flimsy but it kind of makes sense that Peter would be able to make Nathan into a voice in his head like Jessica. Tell me if this makes any sense.
(I'm new by the way, even though I've read the forum for a while.)
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posted
It's only super strength. She has her dead sister's voice in her head because she's schizophrenic, as a result of the serious abuse from her father which scarred her and killed her sister. Jessica was her sister's name, and it's also the name of her other personality (the only one that could access the super strength through most of the show), but they aren't the same.
She doesn't hear her dead sister's voice in her head -- she hears her other personality in he head.
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posted
I know it's lame to correct people, but my cousin had schizophrenia, and it is not multiple personalities, it is paranoid delusions.. Niki has (or had) dissociative identity disorder.
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Blayne Bradley
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posted
unless her sisters power was the ability to possess her, also if Jessica and niki were twins it could explain something.
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posted
It seems too bad that the Haitian wasn't around to walk up to the Big Fight and shoot Sylar in the face. Or, really, walk up to Sylar at pretty much any point and plug him. Where was he for the last few episodes, anyway? I really liked the Haitian.
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quote: At any rate, she didn't say she was fat. The kid said, "You keep eating like that and you're gonna get fat", to which she replied, "How do you know I'm not?" At least that's how I remember it.
It's funny how memory changes things, especially dialog.
My recollection:
"I have a cousin who eats like you. He's huge."
"So am I."
I was very annoyed that the beautiful version was the one who resulted after she stopped projecting her power.
The girl even ranted about how society judges you by your appearance. The actress who plays Candice is gorgeous, so that doesn't make much sense if it's her real look.
I can explain it away, by saying that she wasn't really knocked out, and that she was still projecting, and just playing dead. I doubt that's the case, however.
Add me to those who thought the final scene was crappy. Overall, Heroes is still my favorite show right now.
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
she never once stated she was fat, she implied it and rather coyly. I have a pretty good track record with being right with tv show trivia, for example several people thought that the ciy of Atlantis originated in the Pagasus Galaxy I explained that it originalted several million years ago on Earth and they didnt believe me, I even showed them the episode transcript from wiki pedia and hey still didnt believe me. Gah!
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Blayne, Xavier has it right. Go watch that episode again if you don't believe.
--Mel
quote:Originally posted by theCrowsWife:
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: what is it with everyone and getting TV trivia wrong, Candice never once stated she was fat but more coyly implied it when she said "How do you know I'm not?" She never once said I am fat she only implied it.
No, she said it straight out.
MICAH: I have a cousin who eats like you. He's huge.
posted
Has anyone read the new novel that's up? It (unfortunately) provides evidence that D.L. survives...
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quote:Originally posted by TheHumanTarget: Has anyone read the new novel that's up? It (unfortunately) provides evidence that D.L. survives...
I'm not sure that really matters, though. Haven't future episodes gone ahead and contradicted the novels in the past? I'm pretty sure I remember it happening, but I can't remember which ones off the top of my head.
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quote:Originally posted by TheHumanTarget: Has anyone read the new novel that's up? It (unfortunately) provides evidence that D.L. survives...
I'm not sure that really matters, though. Haven't future episodes gone ahead and contradicted the novels in the past? I'm pretty sure I remember it happening, but I can't remember which ones off the top of my head.
If they have, it was in minor details. I can't think of any contradictions.
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quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: unless her sisters power was the ability to possess her, also if Jessica and niki were twins it could explain something.
I've been thinking this is the case for some time now. I'm also wondering, if this is true, if we have really seen the last of Jessica. She might have fled Niki now that she's become more sure of herself and taken charge of her own life, but maybe she fled to another body? I notice Jessica made one last appearance to show Candace for who she was -- maybe she fled into Candace? She seems like she's got low self-esteem, has to hide her fat rolls under her illusion (and yes, she did flat out say she was fat -- not just imply it).
quote:Yea, I think Peter will still be alive, He is too good a character to kill off. One day he'll make superman look like a whimp.[QUOTE]
That right there is the best reason for them to kill him off right now.
i think they will keep him alive for 1-2 more seasons, until he becomes too "godlike" to keep onthe show.
quote:[QUOTE]why stab him when you can cut his head off?
Cutting off someone's head is much more difficult than stabbing them.
Actually a thrust is much harder to complete, it needs to be extreemely accurate and fast as it is easily deflected and parried when compared to a slashing blow. Granted the neck is a much smaller area than the torso, Sylar still let him walk up to him after announcing his intentions to kill Sylar. My point was still about the fluidity of his mvoement. When he pulled the sword out he pulled it out with a spin. All you need to so to complete a head-chop (especially while your victem has fallen to the knee's) is to finish the turn around and cut across your body. Hiro just lets him live and then gets hit with the telekenisis blast.
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quote:Actually a thrust is much harder to complete, it needs to be extreemely accurate and fast as it is easily deflected and parried when compared to a slashing blow.
Which isn't an issue when Sylar cooperates by just standing there and letting Hiro kill him. Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:i think they will keep him alive for 1-2 more seasons, until he becomes too "godlike" to keep onthe show
Isn't he godlike already? Now he has the abilities of: teleport, stop time, and time travel superhearing freezing melting metals telekenisis regeneration super strength flight mind reading painting the future invisibility memory and nuclear explosions/EMPs
He was also in the area of: tracking people talking to machines and passing through walls
Any I missed?
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posted
How did he get memory? The cute girl in the diner never died from Sylar, as far as I know, but from her aneurysm.
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