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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » 'Dollhouse' Whedon's newest, strangest work (Page 9)

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Author Topic: 'Dollhouse' Whedon's newest, strangest work
Lisa
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It's actually kind of fascinating. I mean, Tru Calling was far simpler. Sometimes I like that. But I'm actually really curious to see what happens here. How things develop.

But yeah, Caroline is an idiot. She acts like a 19 year old, holier than thou, rebel without a clue.

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Tarrsk
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I might be the only one, but I think that Caroline's PETA stance is supposed to come off as shockingly naive. Whedon is pretty open about his liberalism, but I never got the impression that he was particularly gung-ho about animal rights activism (although IIRC Dushku is a card-carrying PETA member). Up to this point, his "evil scientist" characters have always been shown as evil because of their experimentation on people. I think we're supposed to view Caroline as a well-meaning, but self-righteous (and terribly unpragmatic) young college student, of the personality type that commonly populates university campuses. She's the anti-Mal Reynolds: she believes too much in her cause. And her friends suffer for it.

Dr. Horrible spoilers below:

On a related note, I also remember reading at least one interview in which Joss stated that Penny's idealism in "Dr. Horrible" was supposed to be viewed as a flaw as much as a virtue - it's her belief in the fundamental goodness in everyone that gets her killed, after all. The "doesn't eat meat" bit served three purposes: a funny joke, establishment of the groupie characters as the jealous type, and further establishment of Penny as the blindly idealistic type who doesn't understand how the real world works.

End spoilers

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mr_porteiro_head
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quote:
I think we're supposed to view Caroline as a well-meaning, but self-righteous (and terribly unpragmatic) young college student
Minor correction, but she isn't a college student any more, is she?

"I spent four years partying in the shadow of that lab..."

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Tarrsk
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Whoops, you're right. Make that "a well-meaning, but self-righteous (and terribly unpragmatic) young ex-college student."
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swbarnes2
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quote:
Originally posted by Tarrsk:
I might be the only one, but I think that Caroline's PETA stance is supposed to come off as shockingly naive.

That was my thought too. She wants to take down the dollhouse, but right now, she's not ready. Her idea of letting everyone go without their memories was terrible. Right now, she is most useful as Alpha's tool. Maybe later on, she'll be ready to help as Caroline, and not just as a doll.

quote:
The "doesn't eat meat" bit served three purposes:
I didn't take that line literally. The whole point of the song is that "they say" she and Hammer are in a great relationship, but they aren't. He's a jerk, and she doesn't really like him that much. So maybe "they" added the vegetarian line because that's the story that people wanted to hear.
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Nighthawk
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Is it me or did the techie guy that Agent Helo took the recording device to look like Alan Tudyk?
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The White Whale
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quote:
Is it me or did the techie guy that Agent Helo took the recording device to look like Alan Tudyk?
I saw no resemblance.
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Brinestone
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I saw a resemblance, but it wasn't Tudyk.
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Nighthawk
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Checked the IMDB credits for the episode... Not him.

I saw him and he, at least in my eyes, resembled Tudyk if he gained a few pounds.

BTW: Tudyk's no longer listed in IMDB credits as Alpha. Not that it means much, but still.

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TheGrimace
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Nighthawk, I did a triple-take on the first couple seconds of him and thought the same thing. Once the camera actually focuses on him it's obvious that it's not Tudyk, but certainly bears some vague resemblence.
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dantesparadigm
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I thought the same thing. I'm a little disappointed it's not him.
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Carrie
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I also thought that for a bit, even when he spoke.

Gah! Can't we just have Alan Tudyk already?! [Smile]

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dabbler
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quote:
Checked the IMDB credits for the episode... Not him.
I wouldn't use that as proof in a secretive series with secretive characters. In Twin Peaks one character had a fake name for several episodes in a row until it was revealed who this person was.
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Nighthawk
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In case you're not following Felicia Day on Twitter:

1) She is starring in Dollhouse's episode #13.

2) Fox is not going to air episode #13. It's apparently going to appear ONLY on the DVD. Episode #12 will be the season finale.

Still no official word on whether it'll continue to a 2nd season or not, but if Twitter's any indication it has already been cancelled.

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Chris Bridges
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Tudyk is coming.

Dushku isn't a PETA member, as far as I know, and PETA took her to task months ago for going bowhunting and then rhapsodizing about it in interviews. Personally, I think making Caroline a passionate animal rights activist was an injoke.

While I may be grasping at straws, not airing ep. 13 doesn't automatically mean cancellation. It will be on the DVD set, which comes out after Comic Con, and is sort of a tone-setter for the second season. Ep. 12 is for all intents and purposes the finale of the 1st season, 13 is more of a coda. It is possible FOX plans to use it's release as an attention-getting ad for the next season.

Or not. We'll see.

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Nighthawk
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I know it doesn't mean immediate cancellation, there's lots of speculation:

- Show really is canceled.

- It's being saved as the Season 2 opener.

- A bonus to boost DVD sales, in an effort to match the DVD success of Firefly.


The announcement of Ep13 was echoed by Felicia Day and the Dr. Horrible Twitter accounts.

People are now Twittering me (Hey! I'm famous!) that it's been canceled; trying to confirm official sources.

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The White Whale
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Here's a link with a forlorn looking Whedon on the set of Dollhouse.

Why so sad, Joss?

But it doesn't seem conclusive either way yet.

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Fyfe
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Oo, I liked today's episode so much. DeWitt is so creepy with her romance novel hero version of Victor - I need to rewatch the episode where they're talking about sending Victor to the Attic, to see how she's responding to the whole idea of him raping Sierra.

Also: It seems very, very convenient for Echo that the guy now in charge of all Dollhouse security feels very protective of her, and proud of her when she becomes self-aware. Can't help feeling like DeWitt's stacking the deck in Echo's favor here. It's always been clear that DeWitt struggles to act rationally where Echo is concerned.

The other night I had this extremely intricate dream in which Alan Tudyk showed up as Alpha and it was revealed that Echo was the person who's been messing with Topher's imprints, because Alpha had imprinted her to do that using his ghetto version of the imprint technology. I guess he didn't really have any opportunity to do that, but it would be nifty! Anyway, I'm dying to know who the real mole is.

I am ready for Alpha to show up!!!

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Carrie
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quote:
Originally posted by Fyfe:
I am ready for Alpha to show up!!!

This. A hundred times this. During every episode, I keep hoping that Alpha's lurking just off-camera, and one well-timed angle will reveal him.

I also liked tonight's episode - at one point, I blinked twice and asked myself when the show had become somewhat rad. There was a lot going on, and I stopped and actually watched tonight - DeWitt's thing with Victor, Echo's continued 'evolution'... all pretty interesting. The November reveal was awesome, though it's going to give me perpetual Boomer flashes. Perpetual, I say.

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Raymond Arnold
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Between this and the Terminator finale, I'd say this was a pretty awesome Friday night. My roommate had given up on Dollhouse a few episodes ago but ended up watching out of boredom tonight, and now is ready to go back and catch up.
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Fyfe
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Carrie - Hahaha, I hadn't even thought of that, but you're so right! Poor Helo can never cut a break. [Razz]
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twinky
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I really enjoyed this episode. It might be my favourite one, actually. I loved how the same scene was shot from multiple perspectives, giving us some new insight each time.
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JennaDean
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quote:
I loved how the same scene was shot from multiple perspectives, giving us some new insight each time.
Ooh, that sounded kind of Enderish. How appropriate. [Smile]
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The White Whale
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I liked this episode. Poor Ballard, being strung along and abused. I'm looking forward to seeing how he reacts and how his character continues to develop. I liked what they did with Adelle, showing some of her weakness and doubt, but, and please correct me if I'm wrong, being shot in the abdomen tends to be, well, painful and I image a crisis, yes? I could buy that she would suffer through it to see Mr. Dominic get wiped, but then the full conversation with Topher out in the hall afterward without so much as wincing was a little too much.

quote:
I loved how the same scene was shot from multiple perspectives, giving us some new insight each time.
It reminded me of 'Out of Gas' from Firefly, my favorite episode. I think it's the whole non-linear sequence of events that I like so much (when it's done well).
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Glenn Arnold
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quote:
please correct me if I'm wrong, being shot in the abdomen tends to be, well, painful and I image a crisis
I wondered about that at first, when I saw the shot hit the window with blood on it. But once she removed her blouse, it was obvious that it was just a grazing wound.
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Amka
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When I saw the wound at the end it looked more like it was a graze, maybe going through some muscle.
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TheGrimace
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Really liked the episode, but have one major concern that maybe someone here has thoughts on:

-------------------------------------------------
SPOILERS
-------------------------------------------------


Assumption: Dominic is genuine about his claims that his efforts kept Ballard from finding them out.

Problems:
1) How has any of the re-programming of Actives done that? If anything it has only served to keep Ballard going. Unless it's just attempting to further discredit him and drive him insane, but that seems like a big stretch.

2) Why? I can potentially understand wanting to keep the technology from being brought to the public (i.e. inter-departmental rivalries etc). But why would the NSA think that the dollhouse was better off in the hands of some private corporation than either under their control or gone entirely? I can potentially put this aside and just accept that Dominic's assessment of the situation was that it was better to subtly influence things than to potentially bring a useful tool crashing down.

3) Was the re-programming that we have seen (Echo and November) actually the work of Dominic? Or is there still another player working here? Did someone else discover the chip and use it to their own ends? Are there other agents with alternate goals?

Basically Dominic's claims just didn't seem to mesh with the reprogramming that we've seen (at least in any way I can figure out) and I'm trying to figure out how that fits in with things.

The trouble is that they specifically mention that the chip is NSA tech and is used to change the Active's parameters... at least implying that Dominic was using that chip...

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Lisa
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I'm quite sure that the chip was no doing of Dominic. My guess, of course, is Alpha.
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swbarnes2
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quote:
Originally posted by TheGrimace:

Problems:
2) Why? I can potentially understand wanting to keep the technology from being brought to the public (i.e. inter-departmental rivalries etc). But why would the NSA think that the dollhouse was better off in the hands of some private corporation than either under their control or gone entirely?

I don't think they do. I bet Dominic doesn't think it's a good idea for actives to be running around in public for commercial use. He thinks that some day, it's going to be found out if they keep doing it like that. So he was probably preparing for contingencies that Adele and Rossum weren't planning for. For instance, I doubt that either Rossum or DeWitt wants to program the dolls to kill themselves rather than be captured, but I bet Dominic would think that's a good idea.

quote:
3) Was the re-programming that we have seen (Echo and November) actually the work of Dominic? Or is there still another player working here? Did someone else discover the chip and use it to their own ends? Are there other agents with alternate goals?
If the government already knows about the dollhouse, then a quiet investigation won't bring them down. It has to be done publically. But Dominic doesn't want that. I think there has to be someone else who wants to destroy the dollhouse, and it's Alpha, or Alpha is their tool.

quote:
The trouble is that they specifically mention that the chip is NSA tech and is used to change the Active's parameters... at least implying that Dominic was using that chip...

I think the best answer is that Dominic put the chip there, and the infiltrator found out, and started using it.
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Carrie
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Is it just me, or does Dominic (here) bear somewhat of a resemblance to Alan Tudyk (here)? (What? So what if I'm obsessed with the latter?!) I confess myself strangely intrigued by this, even if I'm way off-target. [Big Grin]
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mr_porteiro_head
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They're both blond guys. Other than that, no.
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Mucus
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It's an easy mistake.

White guys do look kinda similar, but if you get to know them and learn what differences there are to look for, it becomes a lot easier to tell them apart.

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Vadon
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For those who want to know what Tudyk's involvement might* entail, there is some info on the upcoming episodes on this wiki page.

* It's on the internet, and I don't trust future episode summaries until I see them with my own eyes. [Smile]

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Carrie
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I do find myself confusing reddish-tinged white guys. They all look the same, really. [Wink]
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mr_porteiro_head
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I understand. I keep confuse Viggo Mortensen with myself all the time.
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Lisa
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I always thought Dominic looked more like Kevin McKidd's brother in Journeyman.
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Corwin
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quote:
Originally posted by Mucus:
It's an easy mistake.

White guys do look kinda similar, but if you get to know them and learn what differences there are to look for, it becomes a lot easier to tell them apart.

[ROFL]
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Goody Scrivener
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I think Dominic is being dragged out as a smoke-n-mirrors distraction. We were never intended to like him or grow attached to him in any way, so sending him to the attic becomes easy. I don't see how he could alter the Actives' programming. If we assume the programming was altered from within the Dollhouse, then I think it's either Topher or Ivy. But I still want to know who managed that remote wipe on Echo during the art heist assignment and how - and wonder if that was a hint to this.

I found it vaguely disturbing that the repeated lonely-hearts imprint that had Doc so spazzed out was for Boss Lady. And I wonder who the old lady is to Adele to be acting as a cover story and how Victor manages to elude his handler and the monitoring equipment for an entire weekend. Surely someone would have made a connection by now?

And I'm not sure how to feel about Mellie being the newest messenger and Paul's reaction. Paul's supposed to not let Mellie see or hear about his investigation so the Dollhouse doesn't get it. Which to me means he's going to break up with her now that he knows she's a doll. The alternative would be to drop the search entirely, but that would mean giving up on finding Caroline - and we still don't know why he's so obsessed with her, right? - as well as now giving up on Mellie. Now it's more personal, and I think his efforts are going to increase.

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Glenn Arnold
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So, according to imdb, A Spy in the House of Love will air on April 24, which is odd, considering it aired last week. Even odder, Haunted also airs April 24.

Now my real question is: was there a Dollhouse episode last Friday or what?

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Nighthawk
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No, there wasn't. I don't remember why, but there was a valid reason.
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Glenn Arnold
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Ok. I was trying to find the episode online, because I thought I had missed it. But Hulu and the Fox website don't actually list the episode schedule, per se, so I couldn't tell if the episode hadn't aired or if it just wasn't available yet.
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Vadon
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Double Prison Break episodes were in its slot.

But the next episode should be playing next week.

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swbarnes2
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quote:
Originally posted by Goody Scrivener:

And I'm not sure how to feel about Mellie being the newest messenger and Paul's reaction. Paul's supposed to not let Mellie see or hear about his investigation so the Dollhouse doesn't get it. Which to me means he's going to break up with her now that he knows she's a doll.

That would be a very bad idea, and Paul knows that. If the Dollhouse can't monitor Paul, they will kill him. With her body. He's going to stay with her, and give her false information about how his investigation is going.

I think the problem is going to be that it's very easy for Paul to say that the fake personalities that last a weekend aren't real people, and it's okay to wipe them away for the sake of the real Caroline. But Mellie is not only a creation of Topher, she's lived so long, she's probably a valid person in her own right. I think that both Mellie and Katie's mom have valid moral claims to existance, and it will be very hard to choose one over the other, but Paul will probably have to make that choice.

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Carrie
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Hi, can it be next week yet?
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Fyfe
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This episode was sad. I liked it though, and I am very, very, very, very excited for next week.
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Shanna
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Eliza did a good job this week. However, who ever decided to give her that annoying piece of hair that was hanging on the side of her face...he or he is a bad person!

The main storyline was boring but I got seriously teary-eyed when they explained Topher's "diagnostic tests." Paul as a character continues to grow on me and I always love seeing Sierra and Victor.

Can't wait to see Alan T next week and I can't believe that Paul is going to be in the Dollhouse. If it comes back for another season, it'll be interesting to see what Joss does with the show.

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Raymond Arnold
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Yeah, I find myself liking Sierra way more than Echo.

I didn't like this story as much as I thought I was going to, but I did appreciate seeing Eliza play someone other than Doll or Tough Girl.

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Jon Boy
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I thought last night's episode was the worst so far. I didn't care about the dead woman or anyone else involved in the murder mystery, and I thought it once again highlighted Dushku's limited range as an actress.

Next week's episode, however, looks very good.

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Dogbreath
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I thought Sierra did a brilliant job as Topher's buddy... we really need to see more of her.
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Raymond Arnold
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i didn't think Dushku did a great job, but I didn't think she did a bad one either, and it was nice to see at least trying to stretch.
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