posted
You know, I'm really glad I wasn't alive when LotR was being published because I would've had to wait between installments. Being born some decades later means I don't have to wait a couple bloody years to find out what happens next!
(Actually I don't remember if LotR was published back to back or not).
I gotta hand it to Rowling, she's definitely keeping me very interested. I was very much expecting to find out what the real deal between Snape and Dumbledore was.
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As far as Snape killing Dumbledore: here have simply been far too many unexplained instances in the past for me to take anything at face value about that. I am almost certain, though, that Snape has not betrayed Dumbledore and been the true servant of Voldemort all along. Too many other known facts and likely suppositions just speak too strongly against that.
For one thing, Dumbledore almost certainly had something other than Snape's confession of remorse as reason for trusting him. Remember his recollections of dealing with Tom Riddle to Harry? At one point he explains to Harry that no, he didn't reveal Tom's sordid past (sociopathic, really), but he certainly didn't trust Tom Riddle, and kept a careful eye on him. He was giving Tom a chance at redemption and becoming an honorable or at least decent man...but it would've and did take more to make Dumbledore trust Riddle.
Whereas Dumbledore trusts Snape with his life, frequently. He also trusts Snape with the lives of his friends and charges, even more often. Clearly since he would not trust one person with a bad past just on their word (not that Riddle ever gave his word, come to think of it), he wouldn't trust Snape on just a confession of remorse.
Snape has had many, many, many opportunities to murder Dumbledore and members of the Order of the Phoenix, Harry Potter and his circle of friends, pretty much all of the good guys-he's even had chances to murder them all at the same time at one stroke! Taken independantly, it's possible Voldemort would have ordered Snape to preserve his cover and not take action. But all of those times?
Why would Voldemort possibly trust Snape not to betray him? Voldemort has *ahem* 'trust issues', obviously.
Would Dumbledore really permit someone of such surpassing cruelty and caprice teach his charges if there weren't a reason of certainty behind it? If a confession of remorse is all Dumbledore had from Snape...wouldn't his constant torment of pretty much everyone except Slytherins detract from his credibility?
Since when does Dumbledore plead for his life? It was like a switch was flipped: he was the calm, collected, quietly defiant hero one moment and the next moment he was pleading. Pleading for what? Certainly not his life.
It is very unlikely that Snape was suffiently powerful enough mind-wizard (I forget the terms) to so successfully hoodwink Dumbledore for all those years. If he was so powerful, certainly Voldemort would have been threatened by him-and such people don't just keep on living.
No, something fishy is definitely going on, and it's not as cut-and-dried as a murderous betrayl.
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As for R.A.B., I have no idea. A member of the Black family seems possible, even though there just weren't many of them left alive when Voldemort was making his Horcruxes, and so very few indeed could've stolen it. But it's possible a Black thought dead might've stolen it.
And just because R.A.B. stole the Horcrux doesn't mean he's a good guy.
Here's my personal favorite theory, one which I realize doesn't fit the story and is extremely unlikely: R.A.B. is a Muggle. A Muggle who has found some non-magical means to overcome the enormous disadvantage all Muggles face when dealing with magical creatures. Kind of like in the old series Gargoyles in which magic is energy, and science is energy, and sufficiently advanced science is just as potent and can overcome magic. But I know, I know, it won't happen.
But maybe R.A.B. won't be human. Perhaps he is a centaur, or a house-elf, or a giant, or a vampire, or (and this is the one I'm hoping for second-most that I think could actually happen) a goblin. We don't hear much about goblins except that they're not always fond of the wizarding world, they're exceptional craftfolk, they control the banking systems, and they're looked down-upon by many wizards and witches.
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quote:It is very unlikely that Snape was suffiently powerful enough mind-wizard (I forget the terms) to so successfully hoodwink Dumbledore for all those years. If he was so powerful, certainly Voldemort would have been threatened by him-and such people don't just keep on living.
Dumbledore, Snape, and Voldemort are probably the three most skilled Legilimenses in the wizarding world. Snape is fooling either Dumbledore or Voldemort, and Voldemort is much harder to fool. That said, I think Snape is good enough to do it and is really on the side of the Order.
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quote:You know, I'm really glad I wasn't alive when LotR was being published because I would've had to wait between installments. Being born some decades later means I don't have to wait a couple bloody years to find out what happens next!
No kidding. Could you imagine waiting for Return of the King after the end of Two Towers? At least Tolkien had already written the book, though.
I started HP after book three was out in softcover. I had been waiting for the series to be complete, but I was stuck on vacation with nothing else to read. I finished the three books about 3 days later. Without Book 3, I might not have gotten quite so into, since that's where the current story line really picks up.
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posted
Y'know, I don't know if JKR will be able to pull this off... but it would be great if -- even AFTER book 7 comes out -- we'll still be arguing over Snape's motives and whether or not he was a good guy...
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posted
Kat, did you not read the books before seeing the movie? Or were you just that into the movies? Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by plaid: Y'know, I don't know if JKR will be able to pull this off... but it would be great if -- even AFTER book 7 comes out -- we'll still be arguing over Snape's motives and whether or not he was a good guy...
I think I would hate Rowling forever if she did that. Snape's been sitting on the fence for so long... What is he now, a quadruple-crosser? A quintuple-crosser?
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posted
I did not read the books before the movies, and I was relatively unspoiled. After Two Towers, someone did tell me what happened at Mt. Doom, but everything else was sort of in the air. As much as the ending to a triumphant hero story can be.
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posted
I know; it's horrifying. I kept it hidden in case they made me turn over my Hatrack Membership card.
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posted
You heard it here first: I think Harry is the last Horcrux, bought with the deaths of his mother and father. To destroy Voldemort, he will have to find some way to assimilate or destroy the Voldemort within. Enough clues have been dropped. Harry hasn't really wrestled with his own dark side. He had no problem hurtling the worst curses he knew at Snape. He's never treated Draco kindly.
Just you wait and see.
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posted
I haven't made it all the way through this monster thread yet (I've finished reading the first three pages), but I thought this conversation with my husband was pretty amusing.
Background: He doesn't read fiction, but he does really like the HP series -- we've been listening to it on tape. He loved book 4 but thought 5 was much more weakly plotted and written. It will be a LONG time before we are able to borrow 6 on CD and finish listening to it.
Me: HP6 was a great book -- I think you'll like it a lot more than 5. Him: Well, I'm glad nobody dies in it. Me: (Pause) How do you know nobody dies? Him: Because you don't like books with sad endings. Me: That's true.
So do you think I can protect him long enough from all the spoilers out there??? Bless his heart.
posted
Hey - can Voldemort possess anyone when in a human form? That's a thought. As the ghost-like creature he is when he's robbed of his body, he can possess almost any living thing (including squirrels, snakes, and humans). But when he's human, can he possess just plain anything?
It wouldn't make much sense if he could. I just don't see it happening. If he could, we would've heard about it on a much larger scale. But, as things are, he's possessed only two things: 1) Nagini and 2) Harry. One of which is a Horcrux almost for sure (since when is Dumbledore wrong? But that may be up in the air right now) - the other is debatable.
The ability for the primary soul shard to possess a living Horcrux might be one of the definitive characteristics. Sure, Voldemort can talk to snakes - but Dumbledore practically pointed out that during Arthur Weasley's attack, Voldemort was possessing Nagini (and Harry was occupying Voldemort - Nagini must've had a REAL headache). The ability to POSSESS snakes goes a little beyond parseltongue.
I think Harry might be a living Horcrux, created by the death of Lord Voldemort. More than likely, he had the situation set up so that he would create a new Horcrux as soon as Harry was dead and he had prepared things accordingly. However, the curse backfired and part of Voldemort was invested in little Harry. I mean, I don't see any other reasonable explanation for why Harry is a parseltongue. In book 2, Dumbledore said that during the night of the attack, Voldemort had inadvertendly transferred some of his power to Harry. I supremely doubt if this is just a side effect of surviving an unforgivable curse. DD basically said, "Well, that night he accidentally took part of himself and put it into you." Man, that sure sounds a lot like how Horcruxes are made, doesn't it? To quote Harry and Dumbledore:
quote: "He put a bit of himself in me? Harry said unbelievingly.
"It certainly seems so."
[ July 20, 2005, 12:22 PM: Message edited by: Book ]
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If indeed RAB is Regalus Black, maybe he got power hungry and wanted to destory Voldemort so he could take over. Or something. he may have been a well trusted DE so he knew about the horcruxes. Voldemort knew about his evil plot, and made sure he only knew about the one in the lake, had Snape go w/him to do some special potion thing so that he could refill it with a potion that let him talk to the person who came after it next. Snape then tries to kill RAB for going against Voldy, but RAB gets away w/the horcrux, unfortunately for Snape and Voldy.
If Harry were a horcrux, wouldn't that mean that he would have to die for Voldy to become fully mortal and defeatable? If all other horcruxes are gone, then Voldy would be quite out of luck to kill Harry.
Posts: 2867 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
[Q] then Voldy would be quite out of luck to kill Harry. [/Q]
I think this is why he needed Harry at the end of Book IV. I think he was "taking his soul" back now that he could undo the...er...accidental horcruxing. He needed Harry the Horcrux to gather up his soul to take human form again. Cash in a horcrux, as it were. It is why he won't allow ANYONE to kill Harry because to do so would snuff 1/7 of his soul. Only VM could do that and only with a ritual. This also puts some shading on Snape still being a good guy. He could still be a bad guy who protected Harry KNOWING that he was a Horcrux.
Then again, VM wanted Harry dead in the Sorcerer's Stone book... hmmm...and then the second one....hmmm...
I don't know. I do know that waiting 2-3 years for the next one is going to boggle my mind. Aiieee!!
Regarding it being "too dark" i have to wonder if the times we live in have peppered JKR's outlook. Her first books came out before the "war on terror" got so hot (Yes, I know it really didn't start at 9/11...the Brits have dealt with it far longer than we have...) but the overal mood of the world really took a dive after 9/11. I have to wonder if the mood of the world effected her outlook that made its way into the books? Who knows. I love them either way.
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posted
I read an interview with JKR about the books getting darker, and she pointed out that the first book started with a double murder and ended with a death and a head being plastered on the back of someone's head. Nothing else she has written has been quite that gross. Her point was that the books were always dark. The difference is that now the main characters know it.
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posted
I don't think we know for certain that Voldemort couldn't create a Horcrux unintentionally. Not only do we not know much about them other, really, than what they're for, but even that information is suspect. Voldemort has gone into completely uncharted territory in the creation of Horcruxes, not only because he is possibly the most powerful Wizard ever to attempt it, but because he's created more of them.
Who knows what process might be involved for someone with an already horribly mutiliated soul to create another Horcrux?
Also, Voldemort is not necessarily a better mind-reader than either Dumbledore OR Snape. The only thing we can say for sure is that he's much harder to gain the trust of, because he just doesn't give it-or chances-to anyone.
Dumbledore has not proven himself any easier to fool than Voldemort either, actually. He never trusted Voldemort, and he was certainly right. His judgement of Malfoy was borne out.
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posted
I don't think the Horcrux must be destroyed to destroy the part of Voldemort's sole that is in it. Didn't DD say that the ring was harmless after he had removed V's soul fragment from it?
I'm going to have to look at that part of the book again.
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quote:Originally posted by fil: Then again, VM wanted Harry dead in the Sorcerer's Stone book... hmmm...and then the second one....hmmm...
I don't know. I do know that waiting 2-3 years for the next one is going to boggle my mind. Aiieee!!
Regarding it being "too dark" i have to wonder if the times we live in have peppered JKR's outlook. Her first books came out before the "war on terror" got so hot (Yes, I know it really didn't start at 9/11...the Brits have dealt with it far longer than we have...) but the overal mood of the world really took a dive after 9/11. I have to wonder if the mood of the world effected her outlook that made its way into the books? Who knows. I love them either way.
Maybe he needed a body before he could get his soul back together? Who knows.
As for the darkness, does anyone know if she had the basic plotline of the 7 stories, like a this is how it'll start, this is how it'll end and these things have to happen in between when she first started out?
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quote:Originally posted by dabbler: I'm suddenly reminded of the Lloyd Alexander books.. A character in the Taran books also had a horcrux... remember?
I thought of that too. Morda was the wizards name. It was in Taran Wanderer and the bone from his missing finger was the horcrux like object. In this case though, his entire life essence was contained in the bone, none in his own body.
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quote:does anyone know if she had the basic plotline of the 7 stories, like a this is how it'll start, this is how it'll end and these things have to happen in between when she first started out?
Yes, the end was plotted from the beginning. She's filled in details since, but the first book was written knowing how the last book would end.
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posted
Yea, then I don't think the mood of the world influenced the mood of the books, they probably had to turn that way no matter what and as katharina said, they always were, the main characters just didn't know it. It may have added a few subtleties, such as the first chapter of this book though.
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posted
Isn't it possible that two wizards stole the horcruxes from the cave? Dumbledore is suppose to be the most powerful (or at least second) wizard in the world, and even he needed Harry's help to get the horcrux.
Maybe Snape and RAB went to the cave together. Snape betrayed RAB and gave the horcrux back to the Dark Lord, thus gaining his trust.
On the other hand, if only one wizard stole the horcrux, I'm betting my money on Snape, Slughorn, or Lily. For one single person to steal the horcrux, that person must be a master of potions.
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posted
But if that's the case, then how did the horcrux allegedly end up in Black's house (if it is indeed the horcrux, maybe it's empty and just has some uber powerful spell on it)? I still hold to my random theory a few posts up.
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posted
Actually, let me poke holes in my own theory. It is very easy for dark wizards to get the horcrux without help from other wizards. A dark wizard can easily put a victim under the imperious curse and force that victim to drink the potion.
And RAB and Snape could not have acted together. The boat would have detected two powerful wizards and would not allow them to pass (unless Snape, like Harry, was only a teenager at the time).
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quote:I don't think the Horcrux must be destroyed to destroy the part of Voldemort's sole that is in it. Didn't DD say that the ring was harmless after he had removed V's soul fragment from it?
I think that once the sould fragment has been killed, it would just be a regular object, thus no longer a horcrux. I think the term, "destoying a horcrux" is used because once you kill the soul, it isn't a horcrux anymore, even though the object can still exist.
:goes looking for more info on horcruxes:
(btw, did anyone else have trouble getting into hatrack maybe 45 minutes or so ago?)
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posted
Now that I've finally read the whole thread (whew!), my main comment is HOW GLAD I am that Harry's character has developed past the immature temperamental Harry of HP5. I liked him again and cheered heartily every time he made a mature decision. (For a change!)
I agree with Brettly10; the books are getting darker. I think it's fascinating, though, that the target audience of the series is maturing with the main character. I don't know that anything like that has ever been done, at least in children's/ teens' literature. Of course, I don't have a 7-year-old who is going to read the books, either, so I sympathize with Brettly10's concerns.
I do think, though (in response to a post about 4-5 pages ago!) that the end of LotR is just as bittersweet as HP6 -- and that the end of HP6 is just as hopeful as the end of LotR. Frodo never could go home again. Even when evil loses, it can change people, their lives, their homes, and the world irrevocably. The best defeat for evil, though, is to carry on with normal life: go to the grocery store, laugh with your friends (or at Grawp patting Hagrid on the head), go to a wedding, go home to Rosie. (And Fareed Zakaria, whose name I likely misspelled, made the same point in a recent Newsweek article about the terrorist attacks in London.) This is why I think the end of HP6 is ultimately hopeful (though the story is far from over), as is the end of LotR: both show that the ordinary loves and lives of ordinary people are incredibly important and beautiful -- and the best way to show evil that it has not won.
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quote: Why was the book even called half blood prince... It isnt even a major part of the novel.
Because the the Half-Blood Prince is Snape, and the book is about who Snape is and why he's done everything he's done up to this point. Look at the discussion in this thread! The cool thing is that Snape doesn't even seem to be playing a significant role until the end -- then you have to look back and reassess the whole thing!
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posted
Yeah, he's a whole lot smarter than I'd given him credit for. Look at all of those spells he invented in his sixth and seventh years, and he knew how to modify the potions instructions to make them more effective.
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posted
If Voly had planned to make the final horcrux with harry's death, then we can reasonably assume that Harry is not a horcrux(follow me here): I think that the death has to be channeled, as in "this death will make this horcrux." I don't think Voldy could have said, "ok, well, since that didn't work, I'll use these two guys I already killed." Voldy didn't know that Harry wouldn't die... and Voldy's body "died" after the curse backfired. He couldn't even hold a wand, remember? So how could he have turned Harry into a horcrux? Is it possible, that given the circumstaces, that Voldy did NOT make the final horcrux? That he didn't attain the "magic number 7"? That's what i'm thinking.
Posts: 1591 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by plaid: Y'know, I don't know if JKR will be able to pull this off... but it would be great if -- even AFTER book 7 comes out -- we'll still be arguing over Snape's motives and whether or not he was a good guy...
I think I would hate Rowling forever if she did that. Snape's been sitting on the fence for so long... What is he now, a quadruple-crosser? A quintuple-crosser?
I'd love her. I'm sick of how this "whole-family" book series seems to always end positively. So Cedric died, but Harry brought him back to Hogwarts just on time; so even though Sirius died Harry destroyed the prophecy; finally Snape is in an interesting position, and I hope that these endings will not be closed ones.
The seventh book is her last chance. After three cute but plain books, one long book, one sloppy book and and one properly-done, well-made, very good book (with completely different dynamics), she has the chance of proving herself a truly worthy author of my pure interest.
posted
Oh oh! I remember something I wanted to say as I was reading through the thread! We don't know exactly what was beyond that waving curtain in the Dept of Mysteries, we just know that it's probably not recommended to go through there. Sirius could have been turned into some sort of ghostly being or something who can still communicate to Harry through that mirror that he has.
Dumbledore, on the other hand, was killed with the Avada Kedavra curse and I don't think you can bring people back from the dead when they're killed that way. But he was special so he gets a portrait that talks, lucky how that turned out.
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HBP - suspected it was Snivellus from the start because it was in potions, and once I saw the dirty spells I started beliving it. After the legilimency Snape preformed on Harry, I had the guy nailed.
Snape - not evil, my fellow dudes. He's Suriyawong only older, greasier, nastier and with an odd obession to bat-like clothing and experssions.
McGonagal - what's with her being all hesitant and in nervous breakdown all the time? That's not the warlike witch she's supposed to be! Where's decisivness? Leadership! Comforting her comrades at harsh moments! Minverva, Minerva...you disappoint me!
Dumbledore - knew he was gonna die, but it was just too soon for me...I was supposed to spend time with him until the end of the seventh book, but no! He left too soon. My mentor, my beloved Dumbly-dore. Nitwit. Bubber. Oddball. Tweak. I miss you!!!
Harry - good for you! You've matured a lot, finally started dating Ginny (I've been waiting for that since...let's see...1999). Taking responsibility, not a prat who doesn't want to look like a sissy so he keeps everything inside like a so-called "man". Good luck, don't die in the end, please.
RAB - Regulus Black is a good guess. I think A represents his nickname or a name Voldemort added, because no middle name appears on the Black family tree.
Dumbledore again - oh why,why,why did you have to leave me so soon? *sobs* I didn't cry this time, though. After Sirius died my eyesockets just dried out.
JKR - this was one of the best books, but I don't see why you have to kill ALL of my favorite characters. (Sirius & Dumbledore...)
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quote:My mentor, my beloved Dumbly-dore. Nitwit. Bubber. Oddball. Tweak. I miss you!!!
Psst! It's Oddment, not Oddball!
quote:Snape - not evil, my fellow dudes. He's Suriyawong only older, greasier, nastier and with an odd obession to bat-like clothing and experssions.
I don't know why, but for some reason that description made me giggle.
quote:Sirius could have been turned into some sort of ghostly being or something who can still communicate to Harry through that mirror that he has.
JKR did say that the mirror would still come into play somehow, though I thought it would be in this book. I don't know whether he'll be able to talk to Sirius, or if someone else will end up with his mirror. (It never said that he had it with him when he went through the veil.) I'm very anxious to find out what will happen.
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posted
Something I forgot to add - that whole Tonks-Lupin thing - I don't like it. Sounds too kitsch. He's weak, ill, and bound to die next book. Why cause more pain to ol' Tonks? She belongs with Charlie! Yep.
Posts: 803 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
Hmmmm...good point. Besides, another Weasley wedding would be too much joy for one Harry Potter series.
I wonder who is this Order member we're going to learn more about. I guess it'll be someone like Shacklebot or Dawlish, that we've only run in to but haven't really met.
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posted
My guess would be either 'Dung, because he could be important to the plot, or Bill, because he was always "there" but never actually got a line (only one that I can remember).
Posts: 254 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Why is everyone forgetting about Dumbledore's brother Aberforth? Moody mentioned him in passing while showing Harry the original Order of the Pheonix. I'd bet almost anything that the focus will be on him.
posted
Here's a new thought! Maybe not and I just missed it above, but here goes...
Snape is dead and DD is racing with Draco to the Dark Lord. You recall that there was all that polyjuice potion around, and it better explains the babbling that DD did when he drank the potion at the cave.
quote:Originally posted by Eisenoxyde: Why is everyone forgetting about Dumbledore's brother Aberforth? Moody mentioned him in passing while showing Harry the original Order of the Pheonix. I'd bet almost anything that the focus will be on him.
Jesse
I think that's very possible. He's in a really good position to get information, and he's a charater we've never really met, even though he's been in a couple of the books.
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Snape's been sitting on the fence for so long... What is he now, a quadruple-crosser? A quintuple-crosser?
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