quote:Originally posted by sylvrdragon: Clair + Russian roulette = predictable. Enough said. I fail to see why Mom hesitated...
Because the whole point was to make puppet guy think Claire was dead so he wouldn't use his power on her. If her own mother had just shot her without flinching, he would have known something was up.
I'm foggy on this point, can Claire feel pain again?
She is able to feel it, but for a while she was too angsty to feel pain.
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Blayne Bradley
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Short answer no.
Long answer noooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
Longer more detailed: It is not apparant in any dialog that Claire can once again feel pain the same way we feel it, however I do believe she can psycologically feel pain/pressure as a sort of backup. She can't feel real pain as we do, but she can undoubtably feel that there are things missing/sticking out of her that shouldn't be.
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quote:Originally posted by rollainm: As for Peter's ability, I was under the impression that it's not proximity so much as an awareness of others' abilities that allows him to acquire them. In other words, he's already capable of using any power as long as he's aware it exists and knows how to access it.
I don't think that's right, because he picked up Nathan's ability to fly before he actually knew that Nathan could fly. But it wasn't until he became fully aware of those powers that he was able to control them.
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quote:Clair + Russian roulette = predictable. Enough said. I fail to see why Mom hesitated...
I thought it was quite realistic that she couldn't bring herself to shoot her own daughter, but that once she psyched herself into it, she just kept pulling the trigger as if on autopilot. She pulled the trigger what, 3 times? That kept it from looking like the writers decided: "the first shot won't go off, but when Clair is the target, it's ok, so that's how we resolve the scene."
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The problem with that scene comes from all the build up to that point. As soon as they showed us the gun we knew what would happen, yet they still took forever to get there. Great decision to have the bullet fire on the second shot. I was pleasantly surprised.
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quote:Originally posted by sylvrdragon: Clair + Russian roulette = predictable. Enough said. I fail to see why Mom hesitated...
Because the whole point was to make puppet guy think Claire was dead so he wouldn't use his power on her. If her own mother had just shot her without flinching, he would have known something was up.
I suppose I just didn't like how Mom had to be coaxed into an emotional storm before she could do what should have been the most obvious thing in the world. If Claire had had to spell it out any more, then all Plausibility from the Puppeteer's point of view would have gone out the window...
I guess they're just making her out to be the overly emotional, irrational type. It kinda makes sense given her reactions to everything Bio-Mom or Claire have done thus far.
I just don't connect to irrational characters I guess. She's like the Polar Opposite of Noah except where Claire is concerned.
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quote:Originally posted by Elmer's Glue: The problem with that scene comes from all the build up to that point. As soon as they showed us the gun we knew what would happen, yet they still took forever to get there. Great decision to have the bullet fire on the second shot. I was pleasantly surprised.
Third. Claire fired once, and her mother fired three times at Claire.
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It was interesting watching the fight between Gabriel and Peter, though. Last time they had a big power fight, Peter was the good guy and Gabriel was the bad guy.
There's a cool essay at the end of Stephen R. Donaldson's first Gap book where he talks about the difference between drama and melodrama. In melodrama, you have a hero, a victim and a villain, at minimum. And the hero stays a hero, the victim stays a victim, and the villain stays a villain. But in drama, they aren't fixed. A person who was a hero might be a villain or a victim at a different time. And any of the others might switch roles as well.
Every one of us could be any of those three archetypical roles, and I suspect that most of us have played all three at one time or another (though I also suspect that most people would deny ever having played the villain; I just wouldn't believe them). Why is it so hard for some people to see Peter as a villain? He wasn't much of a hero in the first place. More of a whiny little boy. And why is it so hard to believe that the iron will of Gabriel could be used by him to overcome his bloodlust and let him be a power for good? It doesn't mean that his crimes would ever be wiped out, but good is good, even if done by someone who has done evil in the past.
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quote:Originally posted by sylvrdragon: I suppose I just didn't like how Mom had to be coaxed into an emotional storm before she could do what should have been the most obvious thing in the world. If Claire had had to spell it out any more, then all Plausibility from the Puppeteer's point of view would have gone out the window...
I guess they're just making her out to be the overly emotional, irrational type. It kinda makes sense given her reactions to everything Bio-Mom or Claire have done thus far.
I just don't connect to irrational characters I guess. She's like the Polar Opposite of Noah except where Claire is concerned.
See, but you're watching a TV show. So you've suspended your disbelief and you can accept that Claire can't be killed by being shot. Within the world of Heroes, Claire's mom isn't watching TV. She's seen Claire do miraculous things, but this is still her baby. And she knows that when you shoot someone point blank, they die. I think it would be hard as hell for any real person to pull that trigger.
On the other hand, when her mother said, "Like your father always says, 'One of us; one of them' ", what kind of "always" was she talking about? Up until recently, she was being regularly mind wiped by the Haitian.
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Yah, in the series continuity, they've only known about Bennett's activities for a few months, it seems.
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quote:Originally posted by sylvrdragon: I suppose I just didn't like how Mom had to be coaxed into an emotional storm before she could do what should have been the most obvious thing in the world. If Claire had had to spell it out any more, then all Plausibility from the Puppeteer's point of view would have gone out the window...
I guess they're just making her out to be the overly emotional, irrational type. It kinda makes sense given her reactions to everything Bio-Mom or Claire have done thus far.
I just don't connect to irrational characters I guess. She's like the Polar Opposite of Noah except where Claire is concerned.
See, but you're watching a TV show. So you've suspended your disbelief and you can accept that Claire can't be killed by being shot. Within the world of Heroes, Claire's mom isn't watching TV. She's seen Claire do miraculous things, but this is still her baby. And she knows that when you shoot someone point blank, they die. I think it would be hard as hell for any real person to pull that trigger.
This woman speaks the truth. Honestly even in a video game when I am instructed to kill a good guy I try to find anyway out of it, and even if I can't, I often find the game to be far less enjoyable after that point.
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Blayne Bradley
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Now there is one thing I do not understand, is this apparant skitsophrenia with healings powers for Peter, he appear to not have it for the last few episodes but I clearly know the only reason he survived his first encounte with sylar season 1 was because of the healing powers from clair, and in season 2 he was at least in proximity with Adam.
Now only future peter actually "died" from being shot and had a scar, but hes been in proximity with evil-claire. Alhough he seems to have healed from the scapal wounds.
:edit: I think i got it, the Haitian was there future peter was shot yes?
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Here's my theory on why Future Peter has a scar and died. Angela only said that Nathan had been given his power. I think Peter's is natural born, encoded in his DNA. So although Arthur took his powers, the empathy will reemerge.
Claire, meanwhile, has lost her ability to feel pain. If she keeps on with the emotionless shell routine, there won't be anything there for Peter to absorb. So while he'll get many of his powers back, he'll never regain Claire's healing.
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No, see, skitsophrenia is when one actor portrays two completely different characters in the same sketch.
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Blayne Bradley
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Okay so HE DID have healing before but now its gone.
Favorite line ever: "just kick his ass and lets go!"
Kinda predicted the illusion bit, the turtle is too awesome a character to lose.
I wonder whats Hiro's spirit walk is like, and wtf Nathan, no, don't do it, stop, don't go, stay back think, think some more, go to a bar then think some more again and rethink that thought enough times for you to realize that its COMPLETELY UNFORGIVABLY RETARDED to decide to go on your own or with Ice Girl to see your psychotic father who may not even BE your father, when all you can do is fly. And Ice girl isn't experienced enough to do crud.
And yes! I know they only held hands, but its only one small step for man's entertainment
And Sylar continues to fascinate me.
Now, question is, how many basic element abilities would you need to be godlike through the combining and manipulation of abilities? Like say using electricity to make a fusion bomb? Or making a cutting laser by manipulating light.
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Wow, Pa Petrelli's acting felt completely flat to me. He was much more menacing when he wasn't talking.
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How stupid was Claire to go on an airplane with out of control electricity girl?
When Matt got stuck, I started ranting through the commercial break about "What, did they decide there are too many characters, and they're killing them all off? And then as soon as they came back from the break, I was like, "Oh, Matt faked it." Which I should have realized. But I thought Daphne really was being good. Damn, this show is hurting my neck.
I'm with Blayne about Gabriel. I was honestly feeling bad for him during this episode. Who ever would have imagined that?
Mohinder sux. And Death Girl redeemed herself by blowing him off.
Btw, going back to some of the earlier Heroes comics on the NBC site, there was a five part story called War Buddies. It's about Arthur Petrelli and Linderman, and how they met. Judging by the preview for two weeks from now, I think it's worth a reread.
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If they're going to throw away characters, they should really start with the stupid ones like Niki II, Mohinder, and Maya, not with the villains like Adam and Matt's dad.
And they really need to stop with everyone changing sides every other episode. Morally grey areas are interesting—changing loyalties on a whim is not.
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Blayne Bradley
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to be fair, if you were asked to kill your own son when your raison d'etre there was to PREVENT that I think changing sides would be acceptable.
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I liked Murry's reminder that even bad parents love their kids. That worked for me.
Daphne still seems on the fence to me. I think she set Parkman up to think she was on his side, but I really think she's starting to see what a great guy he is. Who wouldn't like Parkmen?
Gabriel, I think, is still a good guy. He thinks he's tricked Arthur into thinking he's on his side, but Arthur wasn't fooled. He knows he's the only one who could have saved Peter. He knows he's still trying to be a good guy, even if he did kill that random doctor without even a glance when rescuing Peter. Baby steps, as it were.
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I think Daphne is firmly on Matt's side. I think that she is now playing Arthur. Even if she isn't... Matt reads minds... I mean c'mon.
Why are people still talking about Peter's ability? I thought we established already that it has nothing to do with them being anywhere near him. He just has to come into proximity once, and he has to actually KNOW what they can do. Those are the only stipulations... He can throw lightning without Elle around, and he can time travel etc without Hiro around. He could also heal without Claire or Adam around (once he knew about it).
I assume that the reason Future Peter was still on the table was because either they put something into his head to keep him on stasis, or it was just the proximity of the Haitian. I'm sure the Scar has some explanation too, or perhaps it isn't physically there and the director is using it for the audience's sake to differentiate between Peters.
Arthur doesn't seem to know that he absorbed the ability to Time Travel from Peter. He's probably like Peter in that he doesn't automatically KNOW what he absorbed, and so doesn't try to use it. Otherwise, I assume the series would be over immediately, as I'm sure he would have absolutely no problem tweaking time until it suits his purpose (I hope this is the case, otherwise we have another idiot time traveler on our hands...)
One thing I can't figure out is why Arthur is bothering with this whole power-trip thing... I mean... he's an immortal now. What the hell does an immortal even DO? What's the point of taking over the world? Wouldn't that get boring after a few hundred years? Maybe he really DOES think he's helping... I suppose saving the world would be a step toward appeasing the infinite boredom that comes with immortality more so than ruling it. Maybe both.
At this point, I think that only 3 people in the world can stop Arthur. Sylar because he can use his Intuition to outsmart Dad, the Haitian for obvious reasons (hell, he could go in to Pinehearst with a baseball bat and end this if he really wanted to), and Hiro if he would just stop being an idiot.
Actually, scratch that last. I think that's actually how Arthur is going to find out that he has time/space manipulation. Hiro is going to stop time to attack Arthur, and well... he isn't going to be stopped. He's then going to rip Hiro a new one in freeze mode and be over-joyed at his newly discovered power. At this point, Sylar is going to develop a plan that involves sneaking the Haitian into Pineheart (probably have him brought in unconscious or something. Maybe tell Dad that he has some nifty ability that he would want), and wreak havoc.
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Yeah, I have to wonder why Pa Petrelli thinks he can trust that Daphne has fooled Matt when he knows as well as anyone that the guy can freaking read minds.
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There's one ability that would make someone an absolute god among this show's characters. You know how the black guy absorbs fear? Think about what you could do if you absorbed their stupidity! Elle and Claire going head on to a company they know nothing about, in a plane easy to crash by someone shooting electricity out of their hands (I think there was a scene like that in a movie before... It was called Star Wars, you might have heard of it.); Claire actually winding Elle up on the plane; either Parkman not reading deep enough in speedgirl's mind or Pa Petrelli sending her to lie to the guy who freaking reads minds; Nathan flying to see his all powerful father despite Peter's warnings; Hiro not figuring out how and when to use his power (it was funny in Season I, but it's getting old, guys). I don't think I need to go on.
I'll still watch the show, but they need to come up with something A) plausible B) definitive (no more bad guys becoming good guys becoming bad guys) and C) not stupid soon enough, or else I'll probably drop it after this season. Any chance this will actually be the last season?
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quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: And Sylar continues to fascinate me.
I can't believe I'm going to say this, but I agree. Actually, I was so thoroughly annoyed with Syler in seasons 1 and 2 that it's taken me a while to come around on him. I just about thre wup when he turned out to be another long-lost Patrelli, but I'm starting to get into him now.
Last night's episode kept me going. The pace this season is much, much better than the previous 2 seasons. I'm eager for Hiro's spirit journey next week.
I'm wondering if Peter is going to develop his scar during this period of powerlessness. Then, when he gets his regeneration power back, the wound will already be healed, even if it is scarred, so no need to regen.
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I've been wondering that for awhile. Matt was taking care of her, but he's been gone for a week.
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They mentioned her briefly in the first episode, but I can't remember where they said she was.
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You know... I would bet anything that Gabriel wouldn't have become the monster Mrs. P saw if she had raised him as her true son instead of disowning him as an infant. Seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy to me. (This is, of course, assuming that Arthur wasn't lying about that whole fiasco)
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quote:I thought we established already that it has nothing to do with them being anywhere near him. He just has to come into proximity once, and he has to actually KNOW what they can do.
No he doesn't have to KNOW what they can do. He had his first pre-cog dream long before he found out his mother had them. He drew his first picture of the future before he knew Isaac could paint the future, he healed himself before he knew that Claire had the ability, he was present with Hiro in suspended time before he even met Hiro and something similar happened with the invisible guy. I think he has to KNOW what the powers are before he can control them but he doesn't have to know what they are before he absorbs the powers.
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quote:Originally posted by sylvrdragon: You know... I would bet anything that Gabriel wouldn't have become the monster Mrs. P saw if she had raised him as her true son instead of disowning him as an infant. Seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy to me. (This is, of course, assuming that Arthur wasn't lying about that whole fiasco)
Maybe they're both true. Angela had those dreams about Sylar being a monster when it was likely he would be raised by Angela and evil!guy ARTHUR Petrelli. After he was given up maybe she had new dreams about him being a hero.
More likely he was lying, though.
I thought this episode was the best this season -- not that it's hard to be better than the tripe that came before it, but still. I liked how Peter came back for Gabrielle, flying in the face of Arthur's 'proof' that Gabe had no place in the Petrelli family. I still hate how characters do stupid things for no reason, but it seemed to happen less in this episode.
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I'm beginning to wonder whether "One of Us, one of them" means something other "one with superpowers and one without". With the exception of Bennet, we haven't met anyone from the company who doesn't have a superpower. I'm betting the Bennet has a power too and that we will found out about it in the next few episodes.
I'm going to speculate that "us" and "them" refer to those with natural abilities and those with synthetic abilities although I'm not willing to speculate about which is "us" and which is "them".
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In the graphic novels, they explore "One of Us, One of Them" in a bit more detail. It really is just a person with abilities and one without.
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I'm more or less still enjoying the show, but I have a hard time with how rapidly the characters switch alliances. The plot is convoluted enough without the repeated "tag, your on my team" stuff.
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quote:Originally posted by MattP: I'm more or less still enjoying the show, but I have a hard time with how rapidly the characters switch alliances. The plot is convoluted enough without the repeated "tag, your on my team" stuff.
That's what bugged me about last night! I was having trouble putting my finger on it. I mean, I get that they're really stressing the whole "shades of gray" morality thing, but frankly I want to root for someone already.
At least there's Hiro. Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by MattP: I'm more or less still enjoying the show, but I have a hard time with how rapidly the characters switch alliances. The plot is convoluted enough without the repeated "tag, your on my team" stuff.
Yup. This is what I was trying to say in my last post. They're not exploring shades of grey—they're just flipping everyone rapidly between black and white and hoping it creates the same effect.
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Well, if we are just talking colors I suppose it works. If you squint. Prison Break has done this well. Nearly every character could be argued as good or bad. In Heroes it's just a mess.
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The only think that I keep wondering is why all the future people are usually smart and skilled with their powers while all the present people have no clue? They have gone through so many future scenarios all of which have every hero becoming great and powerful, but not one character in the present has displayed the kind of determination or skill that the future people have.
Future Hiro in the first season had nearly perfect control over his power, and used it to correct the time line pretty well. I don't remember how far into the future that was, but it seems like he has gone the other way and will remain naive and childlike through the whole series.
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quote:The only think that I keep wondering is why all the future people are usually smart and skilled with their powers while all the present people have no clue?
Because over time they've learned better how to use their powers?
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But I think J-Put's complaint is that they don't even look like they are headed in that direction at all. Some of them, if anything, look like they've even gotten worse, not better. And yet miraculously they all seem to be perfectly trained and competent with their powers in the not too distant future. I guess that begs the question: What dramatic events transpire from now until that that lead to such a radical shift in the way they control their powers?
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What kind of event COULD happen? They have been dealing with the end of the world since season one. Most of them have seen some of their friends or family die. Hiro recently saw Ando kill him. Claire saw her father get shot in the head. If they have seen all of this and have had absolutely no change in their behavior, then what event could possibly ever make them change? I think that the writers have written themselves into a very large hole, and i don't see a way for them to get out of it. All of the characters seem totally unchangeable in their mindsets, except when the writers want them to suddenly change sides for no reason, and there will no longer be any believable event to make a character change.
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Hiro is going to freeze time for everyone except them and they're gonna train for 50 years. Then Claire is going to infuse them all with a dose of her blood so they regain their youth.
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