posted
But they kind of already were a dictatorship anyway. I mean, the military is the dominant force, pretty much...and in their situation, it kind of has to be.
I love how they never make anyone entirely likeable in this show. It's fun!
posted
I agree. The republic that was the Twelve Colonies of Kobol died with the Attack and we've been in military dictatorship ever since. But yes, in this current state of near species extinction anything to preserve the Human race is ok.
Posts: 4953 | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
While I do think that the President and Adama could have put more energy and discussion into how to solve the problem (like Roslyn finally did in the end), I don't see Adama's actions as being like a dictatorship--not with their current circumstances. Adama had a point when talking to Chief. I think we underestimate the importance of following orders in the military, especially when the entire race depends on this one military. People DO get killed when orders are disobeyed. The people are forgetting how likely it could still be for the Cylons to show up. They used to have to jump ALL the time. How critical it is that they are prepared for this again.
They need to talk about how to solve their colony problems, and I like that they did, but it is very important that everyone remembers that the whole species is at stake here. They don't have any room for mistakes. If there ever were extenuating circumstances in any civilization, this is it.
Posts: 684 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
But it is interesting to point out the dictatorship is a benevolent one. They are still trying to keep democracy alive and breathing. Maybe not up and jogging around, but breathing.
One of the things that irked me was how the President did not simply remove Cain from command in Season 2. She's the commander and chief for frak's sake, what was up with that? However, a civilian leader's power is only plausible when that power is backed by a strong and loyal military. A military that has more people loyal to the civilian government than are loyal to a commander. Pegasus was the power in the fleet at that moment. Roslin could not remove her from command because there were more people loyal to Cain than there were to her and Adama. Well more people with the really big guns that is.
Anyways, my point is that yes, they are esstentially operating under a dictatorship with a herditary command structure developing. Yet I see the reluctance and hesitation that both Adama and Roslin have with this situation. Even though a completely working democracy is not necessarily in the fleet's best interest at the moment, they want it to stay alive enough that when they reach Earth or whenever, it will still be around to take over.
You are seeing the lessons of New Caprica and the election of Baltar to the Presidency starting to come full circle.
Now if I may bring this in, all of this has happened before...
Imagine that mankind experiences the same situation with Earth and last remnants of humanity launch into space fleeing a war ravaged planet. Now imagine that in those days ships did not have FTL's, so the journey from Earth to Kobol took decades or even centuries. Multiple Generations of man would live, be born and die in the fleet before reaching their destination. Take Alpha Centari, the closest galaxy with planets to Earth right now that we know about.
This episode I think highlights the beginnings of how the tribal/colonial system of government came to happen on Kobol and eventually the 12 colonies as well. Within a generational fleet like that a ruling class could easily spring out of the original political elite. From there it is a very short distance to make the jump to aristocracy.
But Kobol was ruled by living, breathing Gods. When did that happen? This is why I say Earth was the starting point. Think about Helo and Sharon's baby. Add those genetics into the mix of the people that become the ruling class, then aristocracy and you create the potential for individuals laying claim to the title of Gods. Or of course the other idea that I said earlier of the Earth Cyclons being immortal and eventually growing into the concept, etc.
What if Adama and Roslin instead of listening to the chief they had decided to go the other direction.....for the good of mankind? It really was a brillant episode. You can see RM and company showing us how small decisions and a refusal to see what is happening around you can lead into all kinds of unintended consequences.
Posts: 263 | Registered: Nov 2005
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
according to wikipedia my original hypothesis is correct about the Colonials being a fragmented collection of nation-states-planets before finally uniting as one federated United Nations. just something to think about.
I do hope when they reach Earth itll be 2060 Earth.... or....
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: according to wikipedia my original hypothesis is correct about the Colonials being a fragmented collection of nation-states-planets before finally uniting as one federated United Nations. just something to think about.
Where on Wikipedia? I went to the BSG Wikipedia and I couldn't find it.
Posts: 263 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
so am I the only one that thinks encouraging the Chief to lead the union is a bad idea because it potentially puts him in the position of mutinying again? or at the very least makes him too involved in two opposing sides of the issue...
Basically, as an enlisted man he can't disobey orders, but a civilian strike is one of the valid tools of a union. However, as was shown in this very episode, the solution when a civilian refuses to work (in this situation) is to bring in the equivalent of military scabs... but when the leader of the military scabs is also the leader of the union he's either gonna be leery to strike because his already overworked people would have to pick up the slack, or he's going to be put in other bad situations where potentially he and his wife could be executed...
I think the episode brought up a lot of good points, though an earlier poster also brought up some good points: what are the people on the non-industrial ships doing with all their time? I'm sure some of them are employed doing non-heavy work (food preparation/storage, textile work etc... but it's an interesting question). If there was a definate end in sight then the pidgeon-holing would be a lot more tolerable, even if it's unfair. People can bear the unfortunate, but optimal solution for maybe a year or two (or more) if they have a definate end in sight, but since Earth could feasibly be generations away, this is definately an issue that would have to come up eventually. Another big and related issue is what will happen for the specialized fields once the journey is finally over? If all the architects have been weeded out of the population to run ship's factories, who will build the new settlements on Earth? We already saw some of this on New Caprica where all structures were basically either grounded ships or lean-to hovels...
Finally, this episode made me wonder how much the general populus knows about Baltar and his betrayal... for whatever reason I was under the impression that everyone thought him a traitor for his actions on New Caprica (even if they didn't know all the details) Even if his book has/had some valid points I doubt much of the population would take much stock in it. Hate/distrust fades slowly, even now decades after their demise much of the world population would outright disregard works by figures such as hitler and Stalin... yet perhaps months after a similar betrayal of humanity there is a seemingly large underground movement for people seemingly in support of Baltar? Maybe I'm just overestimating how much the populus would know about his actions and how many of them would still support him somehow (makes me think that they should make it a very public trial so that everyone knows the depth of his betrayal etc)
Posts: 1038 | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: look under 12 colonies.
Thanks for that. Very interesting. So it looks like the 12 colonies were not as unified as I thought after leaving Kobol.
From Wikipedia: "As such, the Colonial Government made up of the Presidency and the Quorum was meant to be less of a unified one as seen in the original series and more of an alliance of independent members, like NATO or the United Nations."
Actually this goes a long way to explaining why Roslin did not just simply remove Cain from command. This bit would make me assume that the connection between the Military and the Civilian government is not as rigid as I was thinking.
If anyone else would like to the read the full entry, you can find it here.Posts: 263 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:yet perhaps months after a similar betrayal of humanity there is a seemingly large underground movement for people seemingly in support of Baltar? Maybe I'm just overestimating how much the populus would know about his actions and how many of them would still support him somehow (makes me think that they should make it a very public trial so that everyone knows the depth of his betrayal etc)
Don't forget, Baltar isn't the only person who worked with the Cylons. My guess is many people see him as someone who did what he had to do to keep him and everyone else alive. Also, right now people are upset about the conditions...and are feeling like the ruling class treats them like second class citizens. My guess is that Baltar wouldn't have much support with the upper class, but I could understand why the lower classes would support him.
Posts: 1901 | Registered: May 2004
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posted
Historically that is how tyrants are born. They subvert and convert the underclass, use them to over throw the upper class and gain power. Hitler wrote Mein Kampf in jail. I don't think that Baltar's plan is to regain power. He hated it while he had it, but his cult of personality truly gives him unlimited potential. Even from a prison cell.
Posts: 263 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by ReddwarfVII: Historically that is how tyrants are born. They subvert and convert the underclass, use them to over throw the upper class and gain power. Hitler wrote Mein Kampf in jail. I don't think that Baltar's plan is to regain power. He hated it while he had it, but his cult of personality truly gives him unlimited potential. Even from a prison cell.
When I heard the title of Baltar's book, all I could think of was Mein Kampf. "My Triumphs and My Failures" does sound a bit like "My Struggle".
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
I dont like this article At all... But depending on how you look at it its either really good news or really bad news...
Getting 22 Episodes Could Mean Cancellation For 'Battlestar Galactica'
Usually getting additional episodes in a season is a good thing for a television series. But if SciFi Channel opts to increase its fourth season order of "Battlestar Galactica" from 13 episodes to 22, it could very well mean the end of the line for that channel's signature series.
A source close to the network tells SyFy Portal that if an additional nine episodes are ordered, it will be SciFi Channel's way of telling executive producers Ronald D. Moore and David Eick to use those additional episodes to wrap it up.....
posted
Even though this is just rumor, I find myself suddenly irritated at the general American fanbase. Why is it that the best shows (this one, Firefly) get the worst ratings, while the shallowest ones (IMHO) get the best ratings, like all those reality shows and run-of-the-mill sitcoms? I know, the SciFi channel is not known for always having the best shows, so maybe people don't tune in, but it doesn't make me feel any better.
Posts: 684 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
If BSG lasts only four seasons, I'll be okay with that. I mean, really, does anyone want them to drag it on forever? That may work to some degree with episodic shows like Star Trek, but something as plot-based as BSG needs to come to an end sometime, preferably before it gets old.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy: If BSG lasts only four seasons, I'll be okay with that. I mean, really, does anyone want them to drag it on forever? That may work to some degree with episodic shows like Star Trek, but something as plot-based as BSG needs to come to an end sometime, preferably before it gets old.
I agree, but I want the show to come to an end because the story has been told, and because the writers are satisfied with where they have gone. I don't want it to end because the $$ isn't coming in sufficiently due to lack of viewership. I understand the economics behind it, but it doesn't mean I have to like it.
Posts: 684 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
I am very upset that I just found out about the Battlestar Galactica and Philosophy volume they're publishing - the call for abstracts ends tomorrow.
This should be really interesting, when it finally gets published; I'm thinking late next year. The final drafts of the accepted papers are due 1 December, but I'm not banking on a quick turn-around.
Posts: 3932 | Registered: Sep 1999
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posted
I think they dropped back down to 13 episodes because for two reasons. One, the creators have said that they liked the original 13 episode format since they could give more time and energy to each episode. Two, with the new series "Caprica" coming out they have to split their time between the two shows.
[ March 01, 2007, 03:29 AM: Message edited by: Telperion the Silver ]
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posted
As far as I know, "Caprica" has been put on the back burner for quite some time. There's no official start date, and it seems like they're starting from scratch.
Posts: 3932 | Registered: Sep 1999
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posted
Actually, I too would be just fine if they finished up BSG with 4 seasons. As long as they bring the story to a conclusion and answer the questions and mystery they built, that's just fine.
Also, while I am very interested to Caprica, I am less interested in seeing both Caprica and BSG on TV at the same. Quality suffers when those who are in charge have to keep splitting their attention between two many series. Star Trek is a prime example of that. Let BSG end, then bring us Caprica.
Posts: 263 | Registered: Nov 2005
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::Spoiler Warning:: - - - - - - - - - - By the way, Scifi has released some pictures online of Crossroads Part 2. One of the pictures is of Roslin dressed very nicely in front of a background that looks very snazzy as well. Then there is also a picture of Caprica and Baltar holding Hera. Both Cap and Balt are very well dressed and standing in a snazzy locale too. Looks like the stage of the opera house on Kobol. But here's the weird part, the background behind Baltar and Caprica and the background behind Roslin look like the same place. Someone suggested that it is a dream sequence, but it also could be a projection/mental sequence.
Take a look if you dare and judge for yourself. I don't know what to think really. Roslin a cylon? That would just make my brain hurt. - - - - - - - - - - ::Spoiler Warning End::
posted
Rotation of personnel throughout the fleet makes sense, if you only have a few thousand human beings you need them all to be as useful as possible. Also their is a good chance you would find skills and talents that people were unaware of. The balance between military order and civilian democracy in the fleet must of necessity be a hybrid of the two, however one thing we must remember, naval law is the product of centuries of practicality, what works in a close confined and high stress situation. So deviating too far from that is a recipe for disaster.
Does anyone else find the 'bowels of the ship' technology a bit of a stretch? I mean come on, really this did not look like 21st century or even 20th century tech, this was pure 19th century stuff on a star ship. I half expected to see coal furnaces with sweat covered men shoveling to bring the hyper drive up to speed.
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posted
"Maelstrom" tonight! WOO! I can't wait for this episode and I have less than 11 hours left to see it! Posts: 3932 | Registered: Sep 1999
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posted
RedDwarf: you should check out some of the post of this person http://forums.scifi.com/index.php?showuser=2901330 he writes in a very heterodox, intelligent way about BSG and some of his thoughts seem to dovetail nicely with yours....
Posts: 64 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
Looks like she is one messed up lady. Definately a set up for a come back, why wax so elequently about her past just too kill her off. I mean it is not like she isn't white... oh wait that is LOST, sorry...
Posts: 231 | Registered: Feb 2007
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For all of it, both the strange connections, Leobon's prophecies, that new prophet's prophecies, everything together, for it all to end right here with her sudden death would be a tragedy.
It would also be totally in keeping with the real world. That's how a real f***'ed up person would die, believing in their destiny and what not.
But this is television. This isn't real life, and all of these foreshadowings must go somewhere. I mean, they've spent like three full hours throughout the series talking about this, multiple entire episodes, and for it to just... stop here can't be the ending they intend.
She'll be back.
Something crazy is going to happen.
We'll be shocked.
I mean, they've Chekov's Gun'd this destiny thing to the limit. There will be more, in some way or shape. We'll find out what her destiny is.
Even if she IS permenantly dead, we'll find a twist somewhere.
This is not the end, regardless of the final outcome.
Things should be interesting from now on, though.
Posts: 1577 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
I have a feeling the Dream Leoben was neither a dream, nor Leoben, but a third sentient being, and that Starbuck is neither dead or alive, but in a plane of existance with the Gods, or "beings of light."
Posts: 9754 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Doesn't look like that particular body's coming back from an explosion like the one we just saw.
Of course, that doesn't rule out the possibility that Starbuck is one of the final five and will awaken somewhere in a new body. On the other hand, what if she's some sort of anti-Cylon, with the same ability to resurrect, but without being part of the Cylon groups we've seen before? That could be interesting.
Or, she's just dead. Real life's like that, as unfortunate as that is. I certainly hope we find out more about her "destiny." And I hope we see her picture next to Kat.
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posted
Hot Dog watching Starbuck sleep was almost exceedingly voyeuristic. And creepy, to some extent.
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posted
I am wondering how Starbuck failed to report the seer as a possible Cylon, with the inside information on Starbuck's captivity it seemed like the obvious conclusion to me.
Posts: 231 | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
Anyone else notice Starbucks hand making its way towards the ejection handle? The pressure was supposed to be pretty high but after Cally and Ty's aventure anything is possible. That would mean though that something would have had to have picked her up as I doubt she would have survived that long in that pressure. Maybe the raider wasnt in her imagination at all...
After all the prophet said Leoben was coming and the dream Leoben said he wasnt actually Leoben which I think might meam that he may have been on the raider.
Posts: 243 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Hot Dog watching Starbuck sleep was almost exceedingly voyeuristic. And creepy, to some extent.
I dunno, she was pretty loud. I didn't think he was being creepy. I just thought he was woken up by Starbuck.
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Any device, tool or weapon, particularly a Forgotten Superweapon or Applied Phlebotinum that is introduced conspicuously and will become very, very important later on.
From playwright Anton Chekhov's saying that if a gun is shown mounted on the wall in Act I, someone better have taken it down and used it by Act III.
This trope is probably also related to some of the broader interpretations of Retirony.
Also known as "The Law Of Conservation Of Detail." When used properly, following this rule will prevent Asspulls that jar and grate on the viewer. It can, however, turn out to be a Red Herring after all.
------
Basically, they've talked so much about the destiny that if they don't have some kind of conclusion to it, it would be foreshadowing that leads nowhere.
And since they spent, like, a whole bunch of episodes talking about her destiny, and the connections within, for them to drop it right now without any more would be impossible. Too much effort.
Conservation of Detail, man. Conservation of Detail.
Posts: 1577 | Registered: Sep 2005
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Any device, tool or weapon, particularly a Forgotten Superweapon or Applied Phlebotinum that is introduced conspicuously and will become very, very important later on.
From playwright Anton Chekhov's saying that if a gun is shown mounted on the wall in Act I, someone better have taken it down and used it by Act III.
And here I thought it might be a Star Trek reference.
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Someone suggested that it is a dream sequence, but it also could be a projection/mental sequence. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
